Debate Now Is "Structured Debate" another Euphemism for Censorship?

[RKMBrown]

This sub-forum seems PERFECTLY SUITED for "control freaks", not naming any names

Needless to say, I won't be spending much time down here. Its a way for OP's to "have their cake and eat it too". Not interested in walking down your carefully constructed garden paths, in lieu of a better name.

Yeah it's not working, or at least not with some of the folks. No sense trying to squeeze blood out of a stone.

 

[Foxfyre]

FYI I have a fairly good memory. Our first disagreement was wrt whether income taxes were better than sales taxes. You claimed, presumably because you are retired, that sales taxes are horrible for people like you.

Let's look at Post #330 for instance which you now say complies with my request for justification of your character attacks on me.

Point to the post in context if you want to make this out as shutting somebody down or wanting to hurt people. How does it do that?

 

[RKMBrown]

I never said you did.

I said I thought the two of you were engaged in a rather good disagreement.

What I said was that posts like DC's should be removed (and I am asking if you the mods have agreed to do let you, in effect, moderate the thread, and thus follow any directives you give regarding removing posts).

Otherwise, I am not sure I understand the nature of the OP's complaint.

The OP has several times violated his own rules for this thread as has RKM. But since neither complained about it and it is D_T's thread I won't interfere with how he wants to run his own thread.

I have seen at least one thread in the SDZ closed because the OP was breaking his own rules though. That doesn't seem to be the complaint about me though. The complain usually leveled against me is that I do enforce my own rules.

I'm doing my best to address the point of the OP, by attempting to draw you back from your deflections to the point of the OP.

So show me the post where you did that and were shut down as you have accused me. Show me the post where I promoted hurting people as you have accused me. Let's see if you can support anything you are saying with other than vague waving of your hands at something nonspecific.

I already did, stop deflecting.

And I say that is a lie.

Fox, everyone can see my posts. Your deflections claiming that I did not make posts with quotes and examples is ludicrous.

 

[Foxfyre]

I didn't check them all but #326 is not my post. It is your post. Either you name the post number of my post and the specific statement or phrase that supports your accusations of me or you have nothing and continue to accuse me of something I never said or suggested. And it is exactly that sort of thing that makes a SDZ attractive to those who despise that kind of personal attack.

326 is my post, that is correct. I'm asking you to address what I wrote instead of asking me to rewrite what I already wrote. These posts that I made, include quotes that you made and text in which I explain my statements in a clear and concise manner. You do know that you can "expand" quotes in a post, correct?

You appear to not be able to respond to my posts with anything other than deflections. Again I'm not making a personal attack. In fact quite the opposite. See the post that I wrote with the blue text that explains my position with more detail. Again, I'm not gonna respond to these deflection posts with anything other than pointers to the posts I made in which you started deflecting.

You made specific statements about my character, my posting style, and complaints about what I do to people that I asked you to provide any evidence that what you accused me had any validity. So far you have refused to do that. You point to vague blocks of text and say there it is. Well show me. Show me the specific statement or circumstance that backs up your personal evaluation of me. You have yet to provide a single post number, much less quoted statement to back up your accusations.

You also made specific statements about your own character. I just agreed with you. My statements in those posts were clear and concise. They were not vague at all. If you'd like to address one of my earlier posts go ahead. No only did I provide a list around a dozen times, I've explicitly given you post numbers, and now even a link to another thread, given your apparent confusion regarding what this thread is about.

No, you have not named my posts (unless one of three I didn't look at were mine.). You named yours. You have not pointed to a single statement I have made. Waving your hands at vague blocks of texts isn't going to cut it. Your character assassination was quite specific. I want specifics to justify it.

Again.... I already made my statements. If you want to discuss one of the earlier posts, go back and ask your question. Putting your fingers in your ears an saying I hear nothing is not gonna work.

You have not complied with a single request, you have not pointed to a single sentence, you have not quoted a single post number of mine and shown how it in any way justified what you accused me of. You have nothing. And for you to continue to pretend you did is pretty despicable. But oh well. Carry on. You will anyway.

 

[Foxfyre]

The OP has several times violated his own rules for this thread as has RKM. But since neither complained about it and it is D_T's thread I won't interfere with how he wants to run his own thread.

I have seen at least one thread in the SDZ closed because the OP was breaking his own rules though. That doesn't seem to be the complaint about me though. The complain usually leveled against me is that I do enforce my own rules.

I'm doing my best to address the point of the OP, by attempting to draw you back from your deflections to the point of the OP.

So show me the post where you did that and were shut down as you have accused me. Show me the post where I promoted hurting people as you have accused me. Let's see if you can support anything you are saying with other than vague waving of your hands at something nonspecific.

I already did, stop deflecting.

And I say that is a lie.

Fox, everyone can see my posts. Your deflections claiming that I did not make posts with quotes and examples is ludicrous.

Yes, and anybody with a brain can see how you are pretending to do what you are not doing. Anybody with a brain can see that you are refusing to support your accusations of me. And obviously you cannot or you would have by now. I'm pretty sure you won't address my post #384 any more honestly.

 

[RKMBrown]

FYI I have a fairly good memory. Our first disagreement was wrt whether income taxes were better than sales taxes. You claimed, presumably because you are retired, that sales taxes are horrible for people like you.

Let's look at Post #330 for instance which you now say complies with my request for justification of your character attacks on me.

Point to the post in context if you want to make this out as shutting somebody down or wanting to hurt people. How does it do that?

You're a lying piece of poo. I did not say my posts provided justification of character attacks on you. WOW talk about epic lies.

As for the "shutting somebody down" those statements are in regard to the forum in which we are currently discussing. This forum is not over a year old. The discussion of harm wrt. taxing others to harm them vs. being harmed yourself is a link to a very old discussion. The first one in which you and I bumped heads. Do you now deny being against sales taxes vs. progressive taxes that harm the upper middle class? Do you really need me to search for the post in which you claimed to be for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems? Do you understand the use of the term harm in this context?

 

[RKMBrown]

326 is my post, that is correct. I'm asking you to address what I wrote instead of asking me to rewrite what I already wrote. These posts that I made, include quotes that you made and text in which I explain my statements in a clear and concise manner. You do know that you can "expand" quotes in a post, correct?

You appear to not be able to respond to my posts with anything other than deflections. Again I'm not making a personal attack. In fact quite the opposite. See the post that I wrote with the blue text that explains my position with more detail. Again, I'm not gonna respond to these deflection posts with anything other than pointers to the posts I made in which you started deflecting.

You made specific statements about my character, my posting style, and complaints about what I do to people that I asked you to provide any evidence that what you accused me had any validity. So far you have refused to do that. You point to vague blocks of text and say there it is. Well show me. Show me the specific statement or circumstance that backs up your personal evaluation of me. You have yet to provide a single post number, much less quoted statement to back up your accusations.

You also made specific statements about your own character. I just agreed with you. My statements in those posts were clear and concise. They were not vague at all. If you'd like to address one of my earlier posts go ahead. No only did I provide a list around a dozen times, I've explicitly given you post numbers, and now even a link to another thread, given your apparent confusion regarding what this thread is about.

No, you have not named my posts (unless one of three I didn't look at were mine.). You named yours. You have not pointed to a single statement I have made. Waving your hands at vague blocks of texts isn't going to cut it. Your character assassination was quite specific. I want specifics to justify it.

Again.... I already made my statements. If you want to discuss one of the earlier posts, go back and ask your question. Putting your fingers in your ears an saying I hear nothing is not gonna work.

You have not complied with a single request, you have not pointed to a single sentence, you have not quoted a single post number of mine and shown how it in any way justified what you accused me of. You have nothing. And for you to continue to pretend you did is pretty despicable. But oh well. Carry on. You will anyway.

That's a lie.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm doing my best to address the point of the OP, by attempting to draw you back from your deflections to the point of the OP.

So show me the post where you did that and were shut down as you have accused me. Show me the post where I promoted hurting people as you have accused me. Let's see if you can support anything you are saying with other than vague waving of your hands at something nonspecific.

I already did, stop deflecting.

And I say that is a lie.

Fox, everyone can see my posts. Your deflections claiming that I did not make posts with quotes and examples is ludicrous.

Yes, and anybody with a brain can see how you are pretending to do what you are not doing. Anybody with a brain can see that you are refusing to support your accusations of me. And obviously you cannot or you would have by now.

FYI I have a fairly good memory. Our first disagreement was wrt whether income taxes were better than sales taxes. You claimed, presumably because you are retired, that sales taxes are horrible for people like you.

Let's look at Post #330 for instance which you now say complies with my request for justification of your character attacks on me.

Point to the post in context if you want to make this out as shutting somebody down or wanting to hurt people. How does it do that?

You're a lying piece of poo. I did not say my posts provided justification of character attacks on you. WOW talk about epic lies.

As for the "shutting somebody down" those statements are in regard to the forum in which we are currently discussing. This forum is not over a year old. The discussion of harm wrt. taxing others to harm them vs. being harmed yourself is a link to a very old discussion. The first one in which you and I bumped heads. Do you now deny being against sales taxes vs. progressive taxes that harm the upper middle class? Do you really need me to search for the post in which you claimed to be for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems? Do you understand the use of the term harm in this context?

I certainly do deny that I have EVER argued for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems. I would bet a whole bunch more than a cup of coffee that you cannot find a single post of mine anywhere on the internet in which I have EVER justified or defended progressive taxes since I have been opposed to them since the 1980's.

My requests of you are to justify your accusations in this thread that I shut down those who disagree with me and that I want to hurt people and whatever else was in that laundry list of everything that is wrong with me. I said if those things are true you can surely point to a specific example. And you have been dodging that ever since.

 

[RKMBrown]

So show me the post where you did that and were shut down as you have accused me. Show me the post where I promoted hurting people as you have accused me. Let's see if you can support anything you are saying with other than vague waving of your hands at something nonspecific.

I already did, stop deflecting.

And I say that is a lie.

Fox, everyone can see my posts. Your deflections claiming that I did not make posts with quotes and examples is ludicrous.

Yes, and anybody with a brain can see how you are pretending to do what you are not doing. Anybody with a brain can see that you are refusing to support your accusations of me. And obviously you cannot or you would have by now.

FYI I have a fairly good memory. Our first disagreement was wrt whether income taxes were better than sales taxes. You claimed, presumably because you are retired, that sales taxes are horrible for people like you.

Let's look at Post #330 for instance which you now say complies with my request for justification of your character attacks on me.

Point to the post in context if you want to make this out as shutting somebody down or wanting to hurt people. How does it do that?

You're a lying piece of poo. I did not say my posts provided justification of character attacks on you. WOW talk about epic lies.

As for the "shutting somebody down" those statements are in regard to the forum in which we are currently discussing. This forum is not over a year old. The discussion of harm wrt. taxing others to harm them vs. being harmed yourself is a link to a very old discussion. The first one in which you and I bumped heads. Do you now deny being against sales taxes vs. progressive taxes that harm the upper middle class? Do you really need me to search for the post in which you claimed to be for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems? Do you understand the use of the term harm in this context?

I certainly do deny that I have EVER argued for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems. I would bet a whole bunch more than a cup of coffee that you cannot find a single post of mine anywhere on the internet in which I have EVER justified or defended progressive taxes since I have been opposed to them since the 1980's.

My requests of you are to justify your accusations in this thread that I shut down those who disagree with me and that I want to hurt people and whatever else was in that laundry list of everything that is wrong with me. I said if those things are true you can surely point to a specific example. And you have been dodging that ever since.

Here you go. Burp. Thx for wasting my time doing a search on this ancient thread.
POLL - Liberals how much is a fair share - Taxes Page 100 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

 

[Foxfyre]

I already did, stop deflecting.

And I say that is a lie.

Fox, everyone can see my posts. Your deflections claiming that I did not make posts with quotes and examples is ludicrous.

Yes, and anybody with a brain can see how you are pretending to do what you are not doing. Anybody with a brain can see that you are refusing to support your accusations of me. And obviously you cannot or you would have by now.

FYI I have a fairly good memory. Our first disagreement was wrt whether income taxes were better than sales taxes. You claimed, presumably because you are retired, that sales taxes are horrible for people like you.

Let's look at Post #330 for instance which you now say complies with my request for justification of your character attacks on me.

Point to the post in context if you want to make this out as shutting somebody down or wanting to hurt people. How does it do that?

You're a lying piece of poo. I did not say my posts provided justification of character attacks on you. WOW talk about epic lies.

As for the "shutting somebody down" those statements are in regard to the forum in which we are currently discussing. This forum is not over a year old. The discussion of harm wrt. taxing others to harm them vs. being harmed yourself is a link to a very old discussion. The first one in which you and I bumped heads. Do you now deny being against sales taxes vs. progressive taxes that harm the upper middle class? Do you really need me to search for the post in which you claimed to be for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems? Do you understand the use of the term harm in this context?

I certainly do deny that I have EVER argued for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems. I would bet a whole bunch more than a cup of coffee that you cannot find a single post of mine anywhere on the internet in which I have EVER justified or defended progressive taxes since I have been opposed to them since the 1980's.

My requests of you are to justify your accusations in this thread that I shut down those who disagree with me and that I want to hurt people and whatever else was in that laundry list of everything that is wrong with me. I said if those things are true you can surely point to a specific example. And you have been dodging that ever since.

Here you go. Burp. Thx for wasting my time doing a search on this ancient thread.
POLL - Liberals how much is a fair share - Taxes Page 100 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

No post of mine on that page. Where's the post that defends progressive taxes? Where's the post in which I support hurting people? Where's the post where I shut down somebody who disagreed with me? That is what you have accused me. Show me where and how I did that.

 

[RKMBrown]

And I say that is a lie.

Fox, everyone can see my posts. Your deflections claiming that I did not make posts with quotes and examples is ludicrous.

Yes, and anybody with a brain can see how you are pretending to do what you are not doing. Anybody with a brain can see that you are refusing to support your accusations of me. And obviously you cannot or you would have by now.

FYI I have a fairly good memory. Our first disagreement was wrt whether income taxes were better than sales taxes. You claimed, presumably because you are retired, that sales taxes are horrible for people like you.

Let's look at Post #330 for instance which you now say complies with my request for justification of your character attacks on me.

Point to the post in context if you want to make this out as shutting somebody down or wanting to hurt people. How does it do that?

You're a lying piece of poo. I did not say my posts provided justification of character attacks on you. WOW talk about epic lies.

As for the "shutting somebody down" those statements are in regard to the forum in which we are currently discussing. This forum is not over a year old. The discussion of harm wrt. taxing others to harm them vs. being harmed yourself is a link to a very old discussion. The first one in which you and I bumped heads. Do you now deny being against sales taxes vs. progressive taxes that harm the upper middle class? Do you really need me to search for the post in which you claimed to be for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems? Do you understand the use of the term harm in this context?

I certainly do deny that I have EVER argued for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems. I would bet a whole bunch more than a cup of coffee that you cannot find a single post of mine anywhere on the internet in which I have EVER justified or defended progressive taxes since I have been opposed to them since the 1980's.

My requests of you are to justify your accusations in this thread that I shut down those who disagree with me and that I want to hurt people and whatever else was in that laundry list of everything that is wrong with me. I said if those things are true you can surely point to a specific example. And you have been dodging that ever since.

Here you go. Burp. Thx for wasting my time doing a search on this ancient thread.
POLL - Liberals how much is a fair share - Taxes Page 100 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

No post of mine on that page. Where's the post that defends progressive taxes? Where's the post in which I support hurting people? Where's the post where I shut down somebody who disagreed with me? That is what you have accused me. Show me where and how I did that.

WOW no post on that page with your text? HUH? Are links broke? The post number I linked to in that thread was #999. You stated that you are against sales and property taxes because you are retired. You stated that you prefer income taxes because they are less regressive. You stated that income taxes are not a form of slavery. Thus you choose a first harm over a second harm, because you don't give a poo whether income taxes are a form of slavery or not, you already paid your taxes and you are done with it.

 

[Foxfyre]

Fox, everyone can see my posts. Your deflections claiming that I did not make posts with quotes and examples is ludicrous.

Yes, and anybody with a brain can see how you are pretending to do what you are not doing. Anybody with a brain can see that you are refusing to support your accusations of me. And obviously you cannot or you would have by now.

Let's look at Post #330 for instance which you now say complies with my request for justification of your character attacks on me.

Point to the post in context if you want to make this out as shutting somebody down or wanting to hurt people. How does it do that?

You're a lying piece of poo. I did not say my posts provided justification of character attacks on you. WOW talk about epic lies.

As for the "shutting somebody down" those statements are in regard to the forum in which we are currently discussing. This forum is not over a year old. The discussion of harm wrt. taxing others to harm them vs. being harmed yourself is a link to a very old discussion. The first one in which you and I bumped heads. Do you now deny being against sales taxes vs. progressive taxes that harm the upper middle class? Do you really need me to search for the post in which you claimed to be for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems? Do you understand the use of the term harm in this context?

I certainly do deny that I have EVER argued for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems. I would bet a whole bunch more than a cup of coffee that you cannot find a single post of mine anywhere on the internet in which I have EVER justified or defended progressive taxes since I have been opposed to them since the 1980's.

My requests of you are to justify your accusations in this thread that I shut down those who disagree with me and that I want to hurt people and whatever else was in that laundry list of everything that is wrong with me. I said if those things are true you can surely point to a specific example. And you have been dodging that ever since.

Here you go. Burp. Thx for wasting my time doing a search on this ancient thread.
POLL - Liberals how much is a fair share - Taxes Page 100 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

No post of mine on that page. Where's the post that defends progressive taxes? Where's the post in which I support hurting people? Where's the post where I shut down somebody who disagreed with me? That is what you have accused me. Show me where and how I did that.

WOW no post on that page with your text? HUH? Are links broke? The post number I linked to in that thread was #999.

Fox, everyone can see my posts. Your deflections claiming that I did not make posts with quotes and examples is ludicrous.

Yes, and anybody with a brain can see how you are pretending to do what you are not doing. Anybody with a brain can see that you are refusing to support your accusations of me. And obviously you cannot or you would have by now.

Let's look at Post #330 for instance which you now say complies with my request for justification of your character attacks on me.

Point to the post in context if you want to make this out as shutting somebody down or wanting to hurt people. How does it do that?

You're a lying piece of poo. I did not say my posts provided justification of character attacks on you. WOW talk about epic lies.

As for the "shutting somebody down" those statements are in regard to the forum in which we are currently discussing. This forum is not over a year old. The discussion of harm wrt. taxing others to harm them vs. being harmed yourself is a link to a very old discussion. The first one in which you and I bumped heads. Do you now deny being against sales taxes vs. progressive taxes that harm the upper middle class? Do you really need me to search for the post in which you claimed to be for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems? Do you understand the use of the term harm in this context?

I certainly do deny that I have EVER argued for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems. I would bet a whole bunch more than a cup of coffee that you cannot find a single post of mine anywhere on the internet in which I have EVER justified or defended progressive taxes since I have been opposed to them since the 1980's.

My requests of you are to justify your accusations in this thread that I shut down those who disagree with me and that I want to hurt people and whatever else was in that laundry list of everything that is wrong with me. I said if those things are true you can surely point to a specific example. And you have been dodging that ever since.

Here you go. Burp. Thx for wasting my time doing a search on this ancient thread.
POLL - Liberals how much is a fair share - Taxes Page 100 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

No post of mine on that page. Where's the post that defends progressive taxes? Where's the post in which I support hurting people? Where's the post where I shut down somebody who disagreed with me? That is what you have accused me. Show me where and how I did that.

WOW no post on that page with your text? HUH? Are links broke? The post number I linked to in that thread was #999. You stated that you are against sales and property taxes because you are retired. You stated that you prefer income taxes because they are less regressive. You stated that income taxes are not a form of slavery. Thus you choose a first harm over a second harm, because you don't give a poo whether income taxes are a form of slavery or not, you already paid your taxes and you are done with it.

Your link didn't link to Post #999. It linked to posts 4851, 52. and 53.

Here is the link to Post #999 which again was not my post in context but is yours.
POLL - Liberals how much is a fair share - Taxes Page 20 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

But in my words that you quoted, show me where:
1. I advocated hurting people.
2. I shut anybody down when they disagreed with me.
3. I advocated a progressive tax.

 

[RKMBrown]

Yes, and anybody with a brain can see how you are pretending to do what you are not doing. Anybody with a brain can see that you are refusing to support your accusations of me. And obviously you cannot or you would have by now.

You're a lying piece of poo. I did not say my posts provided justification of character attacks on you. WOW talk about epic lies.

As for the "shutting somebody down" those statements are in regard to the forum in which we are currently discussing. This forum is not over a year old. The discussion of harm wrt. taxing others to harm them vs. being harmed yourself is a link to a very old discussion. The first one in which you and I bumped heads. Do you now deny being against sales taxes vs. progressive taxes that harm the upper middle class? Do you really need me to search for the post in which you claimed to be for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems? Do you understand the use of the term harm in this context?

I certainly do deny that I have EVER argued for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems. I would bet a whole bunch more than a cup of coffee that you cannot find a single post of mine anywhere on the internet in which I have EVER justified or defended progressive taxes since I have been opposed to them since the 1980's.

My requests of you are to justify your accusations in this thread that I shut down those who disagree with me and that I want to hurt people and whatever else was in that laundry list of everything that is wrong with me. I said if those things are true you can surely point to a specific example. And you have been dodging that ever since.

Here you go. Burp. Thx for wasting my time doing a search on this ancient thread.
POLL - Liberals how much is a fair share - Taxes Page 100 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

No post of mine on that page. Where's the post that defends progressive taxes? Where's the post in which I support hurting people? Where's the post where I shut down somebody who disagreed with me? That is what you have accused me. Show me where and how I did that.

WOW no post on that page with your text? HUH? Are links broke? The post number I linked to in that thread was #999.

Yes, and anybody with a brain can see how you are pretending to do what you are not doing. Anybody with a brain can see that you are refusing to support your accusations of me. And obviously you cannot or you would have by now.

You're a lying piece of poo. I did not say my posts provided justification of character attacks on you. WOW talk about epic lies.

As for the "shutting somebody down" those statements are in regard to the forum in which we are currently discussing. This forum is not over a year old. The discussion of harm wrt. taxing others to harm them vs. being harmed yourself is a link to a very old discussion. The first one in which you and I bumped heads. Do you now deny being against sales taxes vs. progressive taxes that harm the upper middle class? Do you really need me to search for the post in which you claimed to be for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems? Do you understand the use of the term harm in this context?

I certainly do deny that I have EVER argued for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems. I would bet a whole bunch more than a cup of coffee that you cannot find a single post of mine anywhere on the internet in which I have EVER justified or defended progressive taxes since I have been opposed to them since the 1980's.

My requests of you are to justify your accusations in this thread that I shut down those who disagree with me and that I want to hurt people and whatever else was in that laundry list of everything that is wrong with me. I said if those things are true you can surely point to a specific example. And you have been dodging that ever since.

Here you go. Burp. Thx for wasting my time doing a search on this ancient thread.
POLL - Liberals how much is a fair share - Taxes Page 100 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

No post of mine on that page. Where's the post that defends progressive taxes? Where's the post in which I support hurting people? Where's the post where I shut down somebody who disagreed with me? That is what you have accused me. Show me where and how I did that.

WOW no post on that page with your text? HUH? Are links broke? The post number I linked to in that thread was #999. You stated that you are against sales and property taxes because you are retired. You stated that you prefer income taxes because they are less regressive. You stated that income taxes are not a form of slavery. Thus you choose a first harm over a second harm, because you don't give a poo whether income taxes are a form of slavery or not, you already paid your taxes and you are done with it.

Your link didn't link to Post #999. It linked to posts 4851, 52. and 53.

Here is the link to Post #999 which again was not my post in context but is yours.
POLL - Liberals how much is a fair share - Taxes Page 20 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

But in my words that you quoted, show me where:
1. I advocated hurting people.
2. I shut anybody down when they disagreed with me.
3. I advocated a progressive tax.

Yeah ok, links are busted. Your posts per page and my posts per page settings must not be set to the same numbers. As to your other questions I already addressed them above. Stop deflecting. Again you appear to not be able to read anything I write. Somehow you keep ignoring EVERY SINGLE POINT I MAKE. Then you ask me to provide proof. It's really strange. It's as if you have a serious mental block.

 

[RKMBrown]

And I say that is a lie.

Fox, everyone can see my posts. Your deflections claiming that I did not make posts with quotes and examples is ludicrous.

Yes, and anybody with a brain can see how you are pretending to do what you are not doing. Anybody with a brain can see that you are refusing to support your accusations of me. And obviously you cannot or you would have by now.

FYI I have a fairly good memory. Our first disagreement was wrt whether income taxes were better than sales taxes. You claimed, presumably because you are retired, that sales taxes are horrible for people like you.

Let's look at Post #330 for instance which you now say complies with my request for justification of your character attacks on me.

Point to the post in context if you want to make this out as shutting somebody down or wanting to hurt people. How does it do that?

You're a lying piece of poo. I did not say my posts provided justification of character attacks on you. WOW talk about epic lies.

As for the "shutting somebody down" those statements are in regard to the forum in which we are currently discussing. This forum is not over a year old. The discussion of harm wrt. taxing others to harm them vs. being harmed yourself is a link to a very old discussion. The first one in which you and I bumped heads. Do you now deny being against sales taxes vs. progressive taxes that harm the upper middle class? Do you really need me to search for the post in which you claimed to be for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems? Do you understand the use of the term harm in this context?

I certainly do deny that I have EVER argued for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems. I would bet a whole bunch more than a cup of coffee that you cannot find a single post of mine anywhere on the internet in which I have EVER justified or defended progressive taxes since I have been opposed to them since the 1980's.

My requests of you are to justify your accusations in this thread that I shut down those who disagree with me and that I want to hurt people and whatever else was in that laundry list of everything that is wrong with me. I said if those things are true you can surely point to a specific example. And you have been dodging that ever since.

Here you go. Burp. Thx for wasting my time doing a search on this ancient thread.
POLL - Liberals how much is a fair share - Taxes Page 100 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

No post of mine on that page. Where's the post that defends progressive taxes? Where's the post in which I support hurting people? Where's the post where I shut down somebody who disagreed with me? That is what you have accused me. Show me where and how I did that.

As for the shutting down thing.. I also provide a link for that one back on #369 in this thread. Go look. Coincidentally you ignored it.

 

[Foxfyre]

Fox, everyone can see my posts. Your deflections claiming that I did not make posts with quotes and examples is ludicrous.

Yes, and anybody with a brain can see how you are pretending to do what you are not doing. Anybody with a brain can see that you are refusing to support your accusations of me. And obviously you cannot or you would have by now.

Let's look at Post #330 for instance which you now say complies with my request for justification of your character attacks on me.

Point to the post in context if you want to make this out as shutting somebody down or wanting to hurt people. How does it do that?

You're a lying piece of poo. I did not say my posts provided justification of character attacks on you. WOW talk about epic lies.

As for the "shutting somebody down" those statements are in regard to the forum in which we are currently discussing. This forum is not over a year old. The discussion of harm wrt. taxing others to harm them vs. being harmed yourself is a link to a very old discussion. The first one in which you and I bumped heads. Do you now deny being against sales taxes vs. progressive taxes that harm the upper middle class? Do you really need me to search for the post in which you claimed to be for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems? Do you understand the use of the term harm in this context?

I certainly do deny that I have EVER argued for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems. I would bet a whole bunch more than a cup of coffee that you cannot find a single post of mine anywhere on the internet in which I have EVER justified or defended progressive taxes since I have been opposed to them since the 1980's.

My requests of you are to justify your accusations in this thread that I shut down those who disagree with me and that I want to hurt people and whatever else was in that laundry list of everything that is wrong with me. I said if those things are true you can surely point to a specific example. And you have been dodging that ever since.

Here you go. Burp. Thx for wasting my time doing a search on this ancient thread.
POLL - Liberals how much is a fair share - Taxes Page 100 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

No post of mine on that page. Where's the post that defends progressive taxes? Where's the post in which I support hurting people? Where's the post where I shut down somebody who disagreed with me? That is what you have accused me. Show me where and how I did that.

As for the shutting down thing.. I also provide a link for that one back on #369 in this thread. Go look. Coincidentally you ignored it.

You linked one of my threads in Post #369. But you pointed to not a single example of how I shut down any person in that thread because they disagreed with me. You pointed to not a single sentence in which I advocated hurting somebody. And you have yet to back up your accusation of me supporting progressive taxes.

You haven 't done that because there is nothing there to support your accusations. And any honorable person can see that. But nice try. I just suggest since you insist on assessing my character and sins according to some vague concept you use to judge that but you can't support, that you just find something else to do.

Have a nice day. I won't respond any further unless you actually do the honorable thing and either support your accusations or admit that you can't.

 

[RKMBrown]

Yes, and anybody with a brain can see how you are pretending to do what you are not doing. Anybody with a brain can see that you are refusing to support your accusations of me. And obviously you cannot or you would have by now.

You're a lying piece of poo. I did not say my posts provided justification of character attacks on you. WOW talk about epic lies.

As for the "shutting somebody down" those statements are in regard to the forum in which we are currently discussing. This forum is not over a year old. The discussion of harm wrt. taxing others to harm them vs. being harmed yourself is a link to a very old discussion. The first one in which you and I bumped heads. Do you now deny being against sales taxes vs. progressive taxes that harm the upper middle class? Do you really need me to search for the post in which you claimed to be for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems? Do you understand the use of the term harm in this context?

I certainly do deny that I have EVER argued for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems. I would bet a whole bunch more than a cup of coffee that you cannot find a single post of mine anywhere on the internet in which I have EVER justified or defended progressive taxes since I have been opposed to them since the 1980's.

My requests of you are to justify your accusations in this thread that I shut down those who disagree with me and that I want to hurt people and whatever else was in that laundry list of everything that is wrong with me. I said if those things are true you can surely point to a specific example. And you have been dodging that ever since.

Here you go. Burp. Thx for wasting my time doing a search on this ancient thread.
POLL - Liberals how much is a fair share - Taxes Page 100 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

No post of mine on that page. Where's the post that defends progressive taxes? Where's the post in which I support hurting people? Where's the post where I shut down somebody who disagreed with me? That is what you have accused me. Show me where and how I did that.

As for the shutting down thing.. I also provide a link for that one back on #369 in this thread. Go look. Coincidentally you ignored it.

You linked one of my threads in Post #369. But you pointed to not a single example of how I shut down any person in that thread because they disagreed with me. You pointed to not a single sentence in which I advocated hurting somebody. And you have yet to back up your accusation of me supporting progressive taxes.

You haven 't done that because there is nothing there to support your accusations. And any honorable person can see that. But nice try. I just suggest since you insist on assessing my character and sins according to some vague concept you use to judge that but you can't support, that you just find something else to do.

Have a nice day. I won't respond any further unless you actually do the honorable thing and either support your accusations or admit that you can't.

Lies. I pointed to the support OF MY STATEMENT EACH AND EVERY SINGLE TIME. AND EACH AND EVERY TIME YOU DID NOTHING BUT PUT YOUR FINGERS IN YOUR EARS AND SCREAM I SEE NOTHING. You never once addressed a single point that I made. Instead YOU MADE UP LIES ABOUT WHAT I SAID as a DEFLECTION TACTIC.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

More like a euphamism for rigging the contest so you'll win.

 

[Foxfyre]

SUMMARY ARGUMENT:

RKM's post #310 addressed to Foxfyre
He said: Yes you are one of "those" people who only create threads to "educate" people on why they are stupid. Everyone but you is a dumb ass because they don't use your definitions of terms to turn up into down, left into right, liberty into authority....

RKM's post #321 addressed to Gracie
He said: I see so I'm stupid and insecure. Got it. And Fox is brilliant, always right, never stubborn. Matter of fact she walks on water half the time.

RKM's post #322 addressed to Foxfyre
He said: I think the point is that when a thread is really just a pat myself on the back thread for being the only person in the room that knows anything about anything.. well then it's not really a debate thread. If all you want to do is get a pat on the back from people who think like you do then maybe we should call those threads "pat me on the on the back threads" vs debate threads.

RKM's post #324 addressed to Foxfyre:

I said: How many do people start who don't defend their own point of view?
He said: Nothing wrong with defending your pov. Attacking another person's pov, when said pov has basis, is valid, supported, and reasonable ... merely because you don't like it or because you it is wrong simply because you say so... that sort of disagreement is not debating. It's emotional reasoning. Maybe one "issue" is the fundamental difference between how women and men think and resolve problems.

I said: I don't know what I've done to you to generate such understanding and charitable feelings, but oh well.
He said: Pretty simple... I posted some facts in disagreement with some of your opinions... IMO you got all upset when confronted with basic facts, such as actual definitions of terms, or reasonable views on topics of import for said debates. IOW I got the opinion that you did not want to debate the facts based on reason but rather wanted to defend your emotionally charged opinions.

RKM's Post 326 addressed to Foxfyre
He said: lol... Like I said. You are one of those folks who insist on defining up as meaning down.... left as meaning right... liberty as meaning authority... then you claim the topic of this thread is why __ won't work because ... well because your definition won't allow it to work .. then you claim that the people debating you are trying to derail your topic.... Nearly every single one of your threads is about you claiming to have the authority to harm others. Then if I argue why you are wrong, you ask why are you trying to derail my thread. You are using the rules to shut down differing opinions, you are not using the rules to further debate. Well maybe not every time, but certainly that was the case in each case when I was arguing with you. You don't want to even contemplate my argument you just want to shut it down by any means possible. Such as... I guess I'll just leave if everyone hates me....

RKM's post #339 addressed to Foxfyre:

(In response to my Post #327 in which I said: But you'll have to show me an example of where I am guilty of what you are accusing me. Most especially any incident in which I have claimed authority to hurt others.
He said: I'm not being mean. I'm just pointing out that you are correct when you yourself state that you are stubborn. You are not one to give others the time of day when it comes to actually listening to their arguments. Your debate style is fingers in your ears. No offense but it's true.

I almost never agree with the Derideo_Te, but in this case the main point of the OP is valid. Structured debates that are ruled by someone that only intends to insult others and/or to exclude any and all structured debate have in fact occurred. And this seems very ironic.

There are many forms of "harm." For example, taxing upper middle class at a higher tax rate is a harm on the upper middle class. As another example, having a voting system where the voter only gets to pick one of the people running and not say who he likes better then second best then third best is another type of harm. As another example, miss-stating what someone has said or done is another harm. As a further example, defending a law that harms people, such as prohibiting gays from being allowed to marry is a harm on those people every bit as harmful as if you had slapped them in the face yourself when they asked to be treated as equals. As still a further example, telling someone that they are derailing a thread because they disagree with the definitions of the terms that formed the basis of the thread is another type of harm. Sure some of these harms are minor jabs. Some are not minor.

Using the power of popular opinion and/or shame and/or emotional pleas for ignorance in the face of clear facts is the same as putting your fingers in your ears and "attempting" to censure argument. Which is fine, if that's the point of the discussion. But not fine if the point of the discussion was reasoned debate.

RKM's post #386 addressed to Foxfyre:
As for the "shutting somebody down" those statements are in regard to the forum in which we are currently discussing. This forum is not over a year old. The discussion of harm wrt. taxing others to harm them vs. being harmed yourself is a link to a very old discussion. The first one in which you and I bumped heads. Do you now deny being against sales taxes vs. progressive taxes that harm the upper middle class? Do you really need me to search for the post in which you claimed to be for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems? Do you understand the use of the term harm in this context?

NOTE: The post has now been linked to show that I did not say that. And he still won't admit it.


CONCLUSION: I have repeatedly asked RKM for a single specific example in context where I have done what he accused me, most especially in shutting down those who disagree with me or advocating hurting people and more recently that I promote progressive taxes . So far he has pointed to huge blocks of texts and threads and one post that that actually shows I did not say what he accused me, but has yet to point to any other specific post or statement that will support any of his accusations. He has failed to make his argument and he should be indicted for false witness.

I rest my case. Let the arbitration begin.

 

[RKMBrown]

SUMMARY ARGUMENT:

RKM's post #310 addressed to Foxfyre
He said: Yes you are one of "those" people who only create threads to "educate" people on why they are stupid. Everyone but you is a dumb ass because they don't use your definitions of terms to turn up into down, left into right, liberty into authority....

RKM's post #321 addressed to Gracie
He said: I see so I'm stupid and insecure. Got it. And Fox is brilliant, always right, never stubborn. Matter of fact she walks on water half the time.

RKM's post #322 addressed to Foxfyre
He said: I think the point is that when a thread is really just a pat myself on the back thread for being the only person in the room that knows anything about anything.. well then it's not really a debate thread. If all you want to do is get a pat on the back from people who think like you do then maybe we should call those threads "pat me on the on the back threads" vs debate threads.

RKM's post #324 addressed to Foxfyre:

I said: How many do people start who don't defend their own point of view?
He said: Nothing wrong with defending your pov. Attacking another person's pov, when said pov has basis, is valid, supported, and reasonable ... merely because you don't like it or because you it is wrong simply because you say so... that sort of disagreement is not debating. It's emotional reasoning. Maybe one "issue" is the fundamental difference between how women and men think and resolve problems.

I said: I don't know what I've done to you to generate such understanding and charitable feelings, but oh well.
He said: Pretty simple... I posted some facts in disagreement with some of your opinions... IMO you got all upset when confronted with basic facts, such as actual definitions of terms, or reasonable views on topics of import for said debates. IOW I got the opinion that you did not want to debate the facts based on reason but rather wanted to defend your emotionally charged opinions.

RKM's Post 326 addressed to Foxfyre
He said: lol... Like I said. You are one of those folks who insist on defining up as meaning down.... left as meaning right... liberty as meaning authority... then you claim the topic of this thread is why __ won't work because ... well because your definition won't allow it to work .. then you claim that the people debating you are trying to derail your topic.... Nearly every single one of your threads is about you claiming to have the authority to harm others. Then if I argue why you are wrong, you ask why are you trying to derail my thread. You are using the rules to shut down differing opinions, you are not using the rules to further debate. Well maybe not every time, but certainly that was the case in each case when I was arguing with you. You don't want to even contemplate my argument you just want to shut it down by any means possible. Such as... I guess I'll just leave if everyone hates me....

RKM's post #339 addressed to Foxfyre:

(In response to my Post #327 in which I said: But you'll have to show me an example of where I am guilty of what you are accusing me. Most especially any incident in which I have claimed authority to hurt others.
He said: I'm not being mean. I'm just pointing out that you are correct when you yourself state that you are stubborn. You are not one to give others the time of day when it comes to actually listening to their arguments. Your debate style is fingers in your ears. No offense but it's true.

I almost never agree with the Derideo_Te, but in this case the main point of the OP is valid. Structured debates that are ruled by someone that only intends to insult others and/or to exclude any and all structured debate have in fact occurred. And this seems very ironic.

There are many forms of "harm." For example, taxing upper middle class at a higher tax rate is a harm on the upper middle class. As another example, having a voting system where the voter only gets to pick one of the people running and not say who he likes better then second best then third best is another type of harm. As another example, miss-stating what someone has said or done is another harm. As a further example, defending a law that harms people, such as prohibiting gays from being allowed to marry is a harm on those people every bit as harmful as if you had slapped them in the face yourself when they asked to be treated as equals. As still a further example, telling someone that they are derailing a thread because they disagree with the definitions of the terms that formed the basis of the thread is another type of harm. Sure some of these harms are minor jabs. Some are not minor.

Using the power of popular opinion and/or shame and/or emotional pleas for ignorance in the face of clear facts is the same as putting your fingers in your ears and "attempting" to censure argument. Which is fine, if that's the point of the discussion. But not fine if the point of the discussion was reasoned debate.

RKM's post #386 addressed to Foxfyre:
As for the "shutting somebody down" those statements are in regard to the forum in which we are currently discussing. This forum is not over a year old. The discussion of harm wrt. taxing others to harm them vs. being harmed yourself is a link to a very old discussion. The first one in which you and I bumped heads. Do you now deny being against sales taxes vs. progressive taxes that harm the upper middle class? Do you really need me to search for the post in which you claimed to be for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems? Do you understand the use of the term harm in this context?

NOTE: The post has now been linked to show that I did not say that. And he still won't admit it.


CONCLUSION: I have repeatedly asked RKM for a single specific example in context where I have done what he accused me, most especially in shutting down those who disagree with me or advocating hurting people and more recently that I promote progressive taxes . So far he has pointed to huge blocks of texts and threads and one post that that actually shows I did not say what he accused me, but has yet to point to any other specific post or statement that will support any of his accusations. He has failed to make his argument and he should be indicted for false witness.

I rest my case. Let the arbitration begin.

Nonsense. All you've done here is show how you selectively edit out the stuff you don't want to read. You bounce around deflecting in 100 different directions. If you have a question about one of my posts, quote the ENTIRE POST THAT I MADE AND ASK YOUR QUESTION. I will be happy to explain in as much detail as you need to understand my use of the English language.

FYI sales tax is not income tax and progressive tax is not the same as progressive/flat. You are zeroing in on the wrong part of my point. I was not saying you are for progressive over flat. I was saying you are for income over sales. It was A TWO YEAR OLD THREAD, I think my memory was pretty close. I provided a link. See post 330 where I state, and I quote, "Our first disagreement was wrt whether income taxes were better than sales taxes. You claimed, presumably because you are retired, that sales taxes are horrible for people like you.." You deleted changed my statements to replace income with progressive only, to make out like my argument was that you are for progressive over some other form of income taxes. That is why I want you to quote my entire post, vs. the part that you wanted to read. The slash when used between two words is a substitute for the word OR. My memory was not 100% as to whether you were a progressive or a flat tax proponent so I said income in the context of the post that omitted. And I may have used a / in another post to indicate alternate types of income taxes vs sales taxes. But as the link I provided shows you were dead against sales taxes and real estate taxes and pro income taxes. Thus my point stands you are for harming people with income. Being for taking someone's income, either progressively or via flat tax, IS A HARM ON THAT PERSON. That said... I'm glad to hear, again, that you are against progressive taxes. I agree that flat is less harmful than progressive. Though there will be those who say flat is more harmful than progressive. THUS HARM IS DONE NO MATTER HOW YOU TAX... depending on your point of view.

 

[Ravi]

SUMMARY ARGUMENT:

RKM's post #310 addressed to Foxfyre
He said: Yes you are one of "those" people who only create threads to "educate" people on why they are stupid. Everyone but you is a dumb ass because they don't use your definitions of terms to turn up into down, left into right, liberty into authority....

RKM's post #321 addressed to Gracie
He said: I see so I'm stupid and insecure. Got it. And Fox is brilliant, always right, never stubborn. Matter of fact she walks on water half the time.

RKM's post #322 addressed to Foxfyre
He said: I think the point is that when a thread is really just a pat myself on the back thread for being the only person in the room that knows anything about anything.. well then it's not really a debate thread. If all you want to do is get a pat on the back from people who think like you do then maybe we should call those threads "pat me on the on the back threads" vs debate threads.

RKM's post #324 addressed to Foxfyre:

I said: How many do people start who don't defend their own point of view?
He said: Nothing wrong with defending your pov. Attacking another person's pov, when said pov has basis, is valid, supported, and reasonable ... merely because you don't like it or because you it is wrong simply because you say so... that sort of disagreement is not debating. It's emotional reasoning. Maybe one "issue" is the fundamental difference between how women and men think and resolve problems.

I said: I don't know what I've done to you to generate such understanding and charitable feelings, but oh well.
He said: Pretty simple... I posted some facts in disagreement with some of your opinions... IMO you got all upset when confronted with basic facts, such as actual definitions of terms, or reasonable views on topics of import for said debates. IOW I got the opinion that you did not want to debate the facts based on reason but rather wanted to defend your emotionally charged opinions.

RKM's Post 326 addressed to Foxfyre
He said: lol... Like I said. You are one of those folks who insist on defining up as meaning down.... left as meaning right... liberty as meaning authority... then you claim the topic of this thread is why __ won't work because ... well because your definition won't allow it to work .. then you claim that the people debating you are trying to derail your topic.... Nearly every single one of your threads is about you claiming to have the authority to harm others. Then if I argue why you are wrong, you ask why are you trying to derail my thread. You are using the rules to shut down differing opinions, you are not using the rules to further debate. Well maybe not every time, but certainly that was the case in each case when I was arguing with you. You don't want to even contemplate my argument you just want to shut it down by any means possible. Such as... I guess I'll just leave if everyone hates me....

RKM's post #339 addressed to Foxfyre:

(In response to my Post #327 in which I said: But you'll have to show me an example of where I am guilty of what you are accusing me. Most especially any incident in which I have claimed authority to hurt others.
He said: I'm not being mean. I'm just pointing out that you are correct when you yourself state that you are stubborn. You are not one to give others the time of day when it comes to actually listening to their arguments. Your debate style is fingers in your ears. No offense but it's true.

I almost never agree with the Derideo_Te, but in this case the main point of the OP is valid. Structured debates that are ruled by someone that only intends to insult others and/or to exclude any and all structured debate have in fact occurred. And this seems very ironic.

There are many forms of "harm." For example, taxing upper middle class at a higher tax rate is a harm on the upper middle class. As another example, having a voting system where the voter only gets to pick one of the people running and not say who he likes better then second best then third best is another type of harm. As another example, miss-stating what someone has said or done is another harm. As a further example, defending a law that harms people, such as prohibiting gays from being allowed to marry is a harm on those people every bit as harmful as if you had slapped them in the face yourself when they asked to be treated as equals. As still a further example, telling someone that they are derailing a thread because they disagree with the definitions of the terms that formed the basis of the thread is another type of harm. Sure some of these harms are minor jabs. Some are not minor.

Using the power of popular opinion and/or shame and/or emotional pleas for ignorance in the face of clear facts is the same as putting your fingers in your ears and "attempting" to censure argument. Which is fine, if that's the point of the discussion. But not fine if the point of the discussion was reasoned debate.

RKM's post #386 addressed to Foxfyre:
As for the "shutting somebody down" those statements are in regard to the forum in which we are currently discussing. This forum is not over a year old. The discussion of harm wrt. taxing others to harm them vs. being harmed yourself is a link to a very old discussion. The first one in which you and I bumped heads. Do you now deny being against sales taxes vs. progressive taxes that harm the upper middle class? Do you really need me to search for the post in which you claimed to be for progressive taxes over flat/sales tax type systems? Do you understand the use of the term harm in this context?

NOTE: The post has now been linked to show that I did not say that. And he still won't admit it.


CONCLUSION: I have repeatedly asked RKM for a single specific example in context where I have done what he accused me, most especially in shutting down those who disagree with me or advocating hurting people and more recently that I promote progressive taxes . So far he has pointed to huge blocks of texts and threads and one post that that actually shows I did not say what he accused me, but has yet to point to any other specific post or statement that will support any of his accusations. He has failed to make his argument and he should be indicted for false witness.

I rest my case. Let the arbitration begin.

Nonsense. All you've done here is show how you selectively edit out the stuff you don't want to read. You bounce around deflecting in 100 different directions. If you have a question about one of my posts, quote the ENTIRE POST THAT I MADE AND ASK YOUR QUESTION. I will be happy to explain in as much detail as you need to understand my use of the English language.

FYI sales tax is not income tax and progressive tax is not the same as progressive/flat. You are zeroing in on the wrong part of my point. I was not saying you are for progressive over flat. I was saying you are for income over sales. It was A TWO YEAR OLD THREAD, I think my memory was pretty close. I provided a link. See post 330 where I state, and I quote, "Our first disagreement was wrt whether income taxes were better than sales taxes. You claimed, presumably because you are retired, that sales taxes are horrible for people like you.." You deleted changed my statements to replace income with progressive only, to make out like my argument was that you are for progressive over some other form of income taxes. That is why I want you to quote my entire post, vs. the part that you wanted to read. The slash when used between two words is a substitute for the word OR. My memory was not 100% as to whether you were a progressive or a flat tax proponent so I said income in the context of the post that omitted. And I may have used a / in another post to indicate alternate types of income taxes vs sales taxes. But as the link I provided shows you were dead against sales taxes and real estate taxes and pro income taxes. Thus my point stands you are for harming people with income. Being for taking someone's income, either progressively or via flat tax, IS A HARM ON THAT PERSON. That said... I'm glad to hear, again, that you are against progressive taxes. I agree that flat is less harmful than progressive. Though there will be those who say flat is more harmful than progressive. THUS HARM IS DONE NO MATTER HOW YOU TAX... depending on your point of view.

^that's gotta burn.