Is Putin Interested In Peace?

[TimFitz]

This post makes it sound like you work for NATO. Do you live in Brussels?

No, I am an American who believes that the Pax Americana is one of our greatest achievements and secures our place as leader of the free world.

All the things Trump is betraying.

 

[PeterPilot]

No, I am an American who believes that the Pax Americana is one of our greatest achievements and secures our place as leader of the free world.

All the things Trump is betraying.

Pax Americana? Do you live under a rock, or are you just in denial of historical events?

The last time Congress declared war was in 1941, but ever since that war ended, this country has been in a state of perpetual war, none declared. Korea, Vietnam, Panama and the rest of Central and South America, The Global War Of Terror brought on Israeli instructions to achieve Greater Israel, much of Africa. I've probably forgotten some. Men died, money was spent, and that ain't peace Tom. Pax Americana is an illusion that only the gullible buy into.

 

[TimFitz]

Pax Americana? Do you live under a rock, or are you just in denial of historical events?

The last time Congress declared war was in 1941, but ever since that war ended, this country has been in a state of perpetual war, none declared. Korea, Vietnam, Panama and the rest of Central and South America, The Global War Of Terror brought on Israeli instructions to achieve Greater Israel, much of Africa. I've probably forgotten some. Men died, money was spent, and that ain't peace Tom. Pax Americana is an illusion that only the gullible buy into.

No, the US has not been in a state of perpetual war.

And, due to the Pax Americana, there has been no major war, and no European or World War since 1945.

And the network of international institutions that the US championed set up an international regieme of free trade that benefitted every human being on this planet. Through either direct American aid, or free trade, the standard of living of the entire planet has advanced considerably in the last 75 years.

Trump wants to undo all that.

Trump's wholesale retreat from being leader of the free world, to something divisive, divided and chaotic is probably the greatest self inflicted wound in history.

Trump wants us to be just a big country. His behavior and duplicity has already make him (and by extension the US) a global pariah. Not to be respected or trusted.

We were a "shining city on a hill". But now, we're governed by a coward.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Trump wants to undo all that.

Liar.

 

[Zebra]

If not, what's his end-goal?

If he is, what makes you think that he is?

Russia 'will never agree' to European peacekeepers in Ukraine, Lukashenko says

Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko -- a close ally of President Vladimir Putin -- warned that the Kremlin "will never" accept a European deployment to Ukraine.

abcnews.go.com

he is not interested

 

[TimFitz]

Liar.

If you're going to call me a liar, you'd better have a real case ready.

Trump began attacking NATO during the 2016 campaign.

Two years later, he sided with Putin in Helsinki before the world on live TV.

He bottled up Ukrainian aid in 2017, and then tried to blackmail Zelinsky into opening a fake investigation to benefit Trump's campaign.

While he was out of office, he managed to have enough juice to bottle up Ukranian aid in the house again, between 2020 and 2022.

In 2022, he endorsed the Russian invasion, calling it a "genius move".

He resumed his attacks on our closest allies during the 2024 campaign, and as President he has routinely attacked them, threatening to quit the organization.

He kissed Putin's ass repeatedly during his 45 day reign of terror.

And Trump operatives have been having talks with Ukrainian opposition leaders (sispite Zelinsky having a 70% approval rating.

Now, if you think the US will be leader of the free world, after it hands victory in Ukraine to Putin, undermining Ukraine's brilliant and brave resistance to Russian agression, and his constant attacks on our closest allies, you're living in an isolationist fantasy.

I predicted that Trump would destroy American leadership in the world, and betray the legacy of Roosevelt and Churchill nine years ago.

I am watching my prediction come true.

Trump is a disgrace to our country and a sniveling little coward.

He has now withdrawn any US aid to Ukraine, interfered with the sharing of intelligence.

 

[M14 Shooter]

If you're going to call me a liar, you'd better have a real case ready

I don't need squat.

You claim Trump wants to:
-Put the US has not been in a state of perpetual war.
-Create a major European or World War
-End the network of international institutions which set up an international regieme of free trade that benefited every human being on this planet.
-Reduce the standard of living of the entire planet

You know you cannot back these claims up because you know they are not true.

Thus: Liar

 

[TimFitz]

I don't need squat.

You claim Trump wants to:
-Put the US has not been in a state of perpetual war.
-Create a major European or World War
-End the network of international institutions which set up an international regieme of free trade that benefited every human being on this planet.
-Reduce the standard of living of the entire planet

You know you cannot back these claims up because you know they are not true.

Thus: Liar

When you deliberately mischaracterize my points as flagrantly as you did, you make a liar out of yourself.

 

[M14 Shooter]

When you deliberately mischaracterize my point, you make a liar out of yourself.

I mischaracterized exactly nothing.
Lie to us some more.

 

[MarcATL]

If you're going to call me a liar, you'd better have a real case ready.

Trump began attacking NATO during the 2016 campaign.

Two years later, he sided with Putin in Helsinki before the world on live TV.

He bottled up Ukrainian aid in 2017, and then tried to blackmail Zelinsky into opening a fake investigation to benefit Trump's campaign.

While he was out of office, he managed to have enough juice to bottle up Ukranian aid in the house again, between 2020 and 2022.

In 2022, he endorsed the Russian invasion, calling it a "genius move".

He resumed his attacks on our closest allies during the 2024 campaign, and as President he has routinely attacked them, threatening to quit the organization.

He kissed Putin's ass repeatedly during his 45 day reign of terror.

And Trump operatives have been having talks with Ukrainian opposition leaders (sispite Zelinsky having a 70% approval rating.

Now, if you think the US will be leader of the free world, after it hands victory in Ukraine to Putin, undermining Ukraine's brilliant and brave resistance to Russian agression, and his constant attacks on our closest allies, you're living in an isolationist fantasy.

I predicted that Trump would destroy American leadership in the world, and betray the legacy of Roosevelt and Churchill nine years ago.

I am watching my prediction come true.

Trump is a disgrace to our country and a sniveling little coward.

He has now withdrawn any US aid to Ukraine, interfered with the sharing of intelligence.

Well said!

 

[BothWings]

I believe Putin wants peace. He probably thought the war would be a quick
conflict, not a 3+ year quagmire. He has lost a generation of men.

Russia invaded Ukraine out of desperation because under Obama a covert program to tweak Ukraine against Russia was enacted. Under Biden it turned overt, and when Russia invaded to meet the slowly escalating threat to their security it was spun by western media to indicate that Russia wanted to take over Ukraine. The truth is Ukraine is resource-rich and the western corporate interests would love to control it. First they have push Russia off the world stage though. Looks like that's not going to happen now. Russia will back off when the U.S. stops arming Ukraine against it. That's WHY they invaded. Simple as that.

 

[Rawley]

When did Russia stop being our enemy

"Gov. Romney, I'm glad that you recognize that al-Qaida is a threat, because a few months ago when you were asked what's the biggest geopolitical threat facing America, you said Russia, not al-Qaida. You said Russia ... the 1980s, they're now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because, you know, the Cold War's been over for 20 years," Obama said.

 

[Superbadbrutha]

"Gov. Romney, I'm glad that you recognize that al-Qaida is a threat, because a few months ago when you were asked what's the biggest geopolitical threat facing America, you said Russia, not al-Qaida. You said Russia ... the 1980s, they're now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because, you know, the Cold War's been over for 20 years," Obama said.

Ok, so when did Russia stop being our enemy? A country can have more than one enemy.

 

[TimFitz]

I mischaracterized exactly nothing.
Lie to us some more.

You competely inverted one of my points, and mischaracterized all the rest. Your dishonesty is showing.

Here are your false claims.

You that I claimed Trump wants to:
-Put the US has not been in a state of perpetual war.

No, the US has not been in a full scale shooting war since 1945, with three notable exceptions. Korea (which the Russians started) Viet Nam, and Iraq (which we started and lost)

-Create a major European or World War
I did not say that the US was going to create a major European or World War.

However, Trump's kowtowing to Moscow, and driving wedges between us and our allies not only serves Moscow's interests (as well as their long term policy goals) And separating the US from NATO will leave us isolated. Our allies in Asia won't trust us. No one trusts Trump.

-End the network of international institutions which set up an international regieme of free trade that benefited every human being on this planet.

Here are a few examples. All of them are self-destructive and serve to undermine our influence and respect.

Trump has already repudiated the Agreed Framework, the ballistic missile treaty, withdrawn from the WHO, the Paris Climate Accord, destroyed the USAID, and is now attacking NATO.

MSN

And now he's making noises about the UN.

-Reduce the standard of living of the entire planet
I did not say that Trump wants to lower the standard of living of the entire planet. I said that the network of institutions we led before Trump raised the standard of living of the entire planet.

Another false mischaracterization on your part.

You'll never win a debate by trying to put words in other people's mouths.

 

[Rawley]

Ok, so when did Russia stop being our enemy? A country can have more than one enemy.

According to Obama, sometime in the 2000s

 

[TimFitz]

Russia invaded Ukraine out of desperation because under Obama a covert program to tweak Ukraine against Russia was enacted. Under Biden it turned overt, and when Russia invaded to meet the slowly escalating threat to their security it was spun by western media to indicate that Russia wanted to take over Ukraine. The truth is Ukraine is resource-rich and the western corporate interests would love to control it. First they have push Russia off the world stage though. Looks like that's not going to happen now. Russia will back off when the U.S. stops arming Ukraine against it. That's WHY they invaded. Simple as that.

This is false. But it is typical of the Russian propoganda now coming out of the mouths of Trump sheep.

The idea that Russia's desire to take over Ukraine came right out of Putin's mouth. No western media was needed.

But if you want to hear their long term objective, look at Russian media.

Putin wants to rebuild the Russian Empire. Ukraine is a key objective, because it will be used as a touching off point for the resubjigation of Eastern Europe.

There isn't a single soul in all of Europe that has any doubt about that.

 

[Missourian]

If not, what's his end-goal?

If he is, what makes you think that he is?

Russia 'will never agree' to European peacekeepers in Ukraine, Lukashenko says

Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko -- a close ally of President Vladimir Putin -- warned that the Kremlin "will never" accept a European deployment to Ukraine.

abcnews.go.com

Putin has what he wants. Crimea and now the water that Zelensky shut off to Crimea.

Russia needs Servastopol. They got their guy elected...twice. In 2013, Russia signed a new 50 year lease on Sevastopol. Next NATO, the US and USAID funded the overthrow of the elected President of Ukraine and put that lease in jeopardy.

Russia took Crimea in 2014 in the chaos after the overthrow...not by invasion. They just walked out of their Naval Base.

Ukraine shut off the canal that supplied Crimea 80% of it's fresh water...so Russia decided to connect the water supply to Russia.

And that's what they did.



So yeah. They have accomplished their goal, and now they want to end the war and hold that territory.

And Europe doesn't want that. The lost of Sevastopol would cripple the Russia economy. So they will prop up Zelensky and keep throwing Ukrainian cannon fodder into the breach to achieve their goals.

 

[AZrailwhale]

If not, what's his end-goal?

If he is, what makes you think that he is?

Russia 'will never agree' to European peacekeepers in Ukraine, Lukashenko says

Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko -- a close ally of President Vladimir Putin -- warned that the Kremlin "will never" accept a European deployment to Ukraine.

abcnews.go.com

Putin has announced his end game. Recreation of the USSR/Russian Empire. Ukraine and South Ossetia are just the first steps.

 

[AZrailwhale]

And what part does peace have to do w/that goal?

Peace gives him time to reconstitute his forces and try to build modern weapons IF he can get the sanctions on his economy and trade lifted.

 

[AZrailwhale]

This is false. But it is typical of the Russian propoganda now coming out of the mouths of Trump sheep.

The idea that Russia's desire to take over Ukraine came right out of Putin's mouth. No western media was needed.

But if you want to hear their long term objective, look at Russian media.

Putin wants to rebuild the Russian Empire. Ukraine is a key objective, because it will be used as a touching off point for the resubjigation of Eastern Europe.

There isn't a single soul in all of Europe that has any doubt about that.

Ukraine also used to a hub of heavy industry for the USSR.