Is it really "illegal?"

[Toddsterpatriot]

Entering and being in the United States is NOT a crime. Yes, do it repeatedly and you end up with a felony charge

How can an "unalienable right" be made into a felony?

 

[Liability]

Entering and being in the United States is NOT a crime. Yes, do it repeatedly and you end up with a felony charge

How can an "unalienable right" be made into a felony?

It can't. BEING in the U.S. may not be a crime. But ENTERING the U.S. outside the provisions of law IS a crime.

Liars like DuddlyDolt keep denying reality. That's what lowlife liars do.

But their lies have no effect on reality.

Improper entry is a crime. The law itself says so.

 

[Zoom-boing]

For those who might be here, watching this circus unfold, if you doubt what I said is true, pick up the phone and call any immigration lawyer. Ask them if the disputed statute is civil law or criminal law and whether an IMPROPER ENTRY is a crime.

*snipped because the rest of your post is just shit

I googled some instead. It's a crime, you door hinge.

Removable Offenses - What Criminal Convictions can Result in Deportation?

The law office of Steven P. Barsamian represents and defends clients who have been charged with or convicted of the following deportable criminal offenses:

DUI conviction
Possession of drugs
Conviction for assault
Conviction for fraud
Illegal entry into the United States
Improper re-entry into the United States
Expired visa
Other criminal convictions and immigration offenses

Deportation Defense Lawyer Philadelphia Pennsylvania | Removal Proceedings Defense Attorney New Jersey | Immigration Court

Illegal entry, marriage or establishing a business for evading immigration laws: Section 1325 sets forth criminal offenses relating to (1) improper entry into the United States by an alien, (2) entry into marriage for the purpose of evading immigration laws, and (3) establishing a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading immigration laws.

Immigration Criminal Attorney, Federal Criminal Defense Lawyer, Houston, Throughout Texas and all Federal Courts

Criminal Resource Manual 1911 8 U.S.C. 1325 -- Unlawful Entry, Failure to Depart, Fleeing Immigration Checkpoints, Marriage Fraud, Commercial Enterprise Fraud

The federal crime of illegal immigration is the movement of foreign citizens into a country when these foreign citizens do not meet the legal requirements for being in that country.

The crime of illegal immigration is governed by Title 8, Section 1325 of the U.S. Code. Title 8, Section 1325 provides that an alien has committed the federal crime of improper entry into the United States if that alien 1) enters the United States at any time or place other than that as designated by immigrations officers, or 2) evades examination by immigrations officers, or 3) attempts to enter the country by a willfully false or misleading representation of a material fact.

*Note: ^ This has been pointed out to you repeatedly and yet, you insist that it is bunk. You. Are. Wrong.

An alien convicted of the crime of illegal immigration faces deportation from the United States if that alien is present in the country without government permission, or, if that alien is a foreign citizen and has been convicted of certain crimes.

Immigration Attorney Orange County| Boxer Mc Laughlin


Buttercup, make sure you collect lots of dry wood for yer cave dwelling, mkay?

 

[Liability]

For those who might be here, watching this circus unfold, if you doubt what I said is true, pick up the phone and call any immigration lawyer. Ask them if the disputed statute is civil law or criminal law and whether an IMPROPER ENTRY is a crime.

*snipped because the rest of your post is just shit

I googled some instead. It's a crime, you door hinge.

Removable Offenses - What Criminal Convictions can Result in Deportation?

The law office of Steven P. Barsamian represents and defends clients who have been charged with or convicted of the following deportable criminal offenses:

DUI conviction
Possession of drugs
Conviction for assault
Conviction for fraud
Illegal entry into the United States
Improper re-entry into the United States
Expired visa
Other criminal convictions and immigration offenses

Deportation Defense Lawyer Philadelphia Pennsylvania | Removal Proceedings Defense Attorney New Jersey | Immigration Court

Illegal entry, marriage or establishing a business for evading immigration laws: Section 1325 sets forth criminal offenses relating to (1) improper entry into the United States by an alien, (2) entry into marriage for the purpose of evading immigration laws, and (3) establishing a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading immigration laws.

Immigration Criminal Attorney, Federal Criminal Defense Lawyer, Houston, Throughout Texas and all Federal Courts

Criminal Resource Manual 1911 8 U.S.C. 1325 -- Unlawful Entry, Failure to Depart, Fleeing Immigration Checkpoints, Marriage Fraud, Commercial Enterprise Fraud

The federal crime of illegal immigration is the movement of foreign citizens into a country when these foreign citizens do not meet the legal requirements for being in that country.

The crime of illegal immigration is governed by Title 8, Section 1325 of the U.S. Code. Title 8, Section 1325 provides that an alien has committed the federal crime of improper entry into the United States if that alien 1) enters the United States at any time or place other than that as designated by immigrations officers, or 2) evades examination by immigrations officers, or 3) attempts to enter the country by a willfully false or misleading representation of a material fact.

*Note: ^ This has been pointed out to you repeatedly and yet, you insist that it is bunk. You. Are. Wrong.

An alien convicted of the crime of illegal immigration faces deportation from the United States if that alien is present in the country without government permission, or, if that alien is a foreign citizen and has been convicted of certain crimes.

Immigration Attorney Orange County| Boxer Mc Laughlin


Buttercup, make sure you collect lots of dry wood for yer cave dwelling, mkay?

DudlyDolt makes two major mistakes in his fake analysis.

First, he persists in confusing the REMOVAL proceeding of an alien with a prosecution. HE is, of course, painfully wrong and dull-witted. A REMOVAL proceeding (what we used to call a "deportation proceeding") is civil/administrative in nature. BUT, when the government arrests the illegal alien's ass and prosecutes him/her for improper entry, that is a CRIMINAL proceeding (and the law is a criminal statute) BECAUSE -- why? Anybody? Bueller? Bueller? That's RIGHT! The DEFENDANT can get a jail term (misdemeanor) or even a prison sentence (felony).

There is no doubt on Earth -- none -- that it's a criminal action.

Secondly, he mistakenly assumes that BECAUSE he has said something previously, that settles the matter. But, of course, it doesn't. He was WRONG the first time. Repeating it merely makes him wrong AGAIN.

 

[High_Gravity]

Man Buddycolt must really want his illegal immigrant loved ones to stay here to make up all these damn lies.

 

[MaryL]

It IS illegal, title 8 section 1325 and all that. I love that you look to Regan and Bush in support of illegals. Regan killed American unions, and Bush invaded Iraq. But, that makes illegal aliens OK. Phony arguments, and false logic. Something isn't ringing true here. Like your reading of history, kiddo.

 

[Catalist]

Living in a State with some of the most porous borders in the nation we hear a lot of things. Even Google does not seem to accurately reflect what is going on with illegal immigration.

It is my understanding that enforcement of immigration laws and the 14th Amendment are not as important to immigration as one might think. I am informed that false citizenship documents are a felony, and offer law enforcement greater ease in incarcerating and deporting illegals. Why get bogged down in red tape? Squeeze granny out, and you get the whole family out. That is what we see in the news down here.

I for one find the poking around of both political parties and Washington D. C. to be a complete waste of time. We have all these people in airports taking off their shoes and belts to get on an airplane, when you could drive ten red semi trucks across the border into New Mexico and no one would even notice. The corruption on both sides of the border, the drug problem, and the drug cartels make the whole thing a joke.

Once you understand the problem, you're closer to a solution.

According to the Chief Actuary for the Socialist Security Administration, about 75 percent of the people in the U.S. get a Taxpayer Identification Number and enlist in the unconstitutional income tax scheme. Well, now a lot of folks are bitching because the Hispanics claim a lot of dependents. Then we find out half of AMERICANS don't pay income tax... Solution? Get rid of the income tax.

People are all over the border because of the drugs. It's a supply and demand issue. America will have to either resort to the death penalty for major suppliers and even a joint will have to net you a seven year stint in prison. NWIH (NO Way In Hell)...

Solution? Legalize and tax drugs. When the Mexican cartels have to compete with the government of Mexico, the border patrols will double and, since people can buy legally, no more back door deals. No more border problem over the drugs.

BTW, Entering and being in the United States is NOT a crime. Yes, do it repeatedly and you end up with a felony charge... but DUI is a misdemeanor. These dumb asses on this board may as well try and convince you a DUI is a felony. It can be if you do it enough times. What we're talking about are people that come here, get a TIN and do the same things that everybody else does.

The crap about National Sovereignty does not apply. National Sovereignty is power only to protect America. It does not extend to the unalienable Rights of individuals. IF you did not have people in America willing to engage in legal business pursuits with the foreigners, you might be able to make a case for invasion, etc. But, you can't. Our founding fathers never intended the government to prohibit immigration nor stifle free trade. We have to focus on getting rid of GATT, NAFTA, the DHS, and cut all the welfare agencies in half. You have to get rid of an over-sized government and stimulate growth. You need a Guest Worker program with NO automatic path to citizenship and then begin lowering taxes.

The race war will not stimulate growth. All it's doing is giving the government a pretext for growing bigger and bigger, taking our Liberties with it as it devours us.

Well, I agree with you about legalizing drugs as a partial solution to the problems here on the southern border of the United States. Legalize and tax.

Otherwise you are dancing around the realities of illegal immigration. First, we have about 12,000,000 illegals who have already broken into the United States without proper documents. We need to remove them. We have done it before, and the president can do it with the stroke of a pen again. There is no human rights issue here, only law enforcement, and deportation is the common answer around the planet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback

Second, the idea of "cheap labor" from Mexico is pure fiction. Illegal aliens and their anchor babies cost American taxpayers $113 BILLION a year. http://www.illegalimmigrationstatistics.org/illegal-immigration-a-113-billion-a-year-drain-on-u-s-taxpayers/ We are lucky if we recoup $10 billion a year on taxes from illegals. The American taxpayer is losing easily $100,000,000,000 a year on these freeloaders. We need to deport them all. They are not our problem.

We gave migrants an opportunity to work in our fields and send money home. Then they decided they owned a piece of the American pie, and were entitle to welfare benefits. We owe them nothing. Deport them all with no consideration.

 

[BuddyColt]

Immigration Attorney Orange County| Boxer Mc Laughlin


Buttercup, make sure you collect lots of dry wood for yer cave dwelling, mkay?

Your quote is "an alien convicted of the crime of illegal immigration faces deportation..."

You have not cited a single authoritative source. Let me give you a RULING. This RULING is from the highest ranking immigration official in the United States:

" (2) Aliens in removal proceedings have no right to counsel, including Government-appointed
counsel, under the Sixth Amendment of the Constitution because the Sixth Amendment
applies only to criminal proceedings and removal proceedings are civil in nature."

http://www.justice.gov/eoir/vll/intdec/vol24/3632.pdf

A foreigner sits before the highest ranking immigration official in the United States. The statute in question is Title 8 USC 1325. That official denies to the foreigner a taxpayer funded attorney on the basis that Title 8 USC 1325 is NOT a crime and deportation is a CIVIL matter.

You cannot change the ruling with an advertisement or penciling in the word crime where it is absolutely NOT in the statute.

Secondly, the legal community bandies the word "illegal" around and Michael Mukasey gave the American Bar Association the equivalent of a lecture on their application of the law relative to that point:

"Not every wrong, or even every violation of the law, is a crime."

The liberal ABA has this habit of calling everything a crime if they can find any nuance in legal parlance that addresses it. Again, here is proof that the legal community will say the word "illegal" and then explain to you that we are not talking about a crime. Save yourself about 5000 keystrokes and listen to what the HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND (IN) SECURITY SAYS:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTqim4Se70k]Napolitano: Illegally Crossing Mexican Border's Not A Crime. All Terrorists Crossed Canadian Border - YouTube[/ame]

Listen to the words: CROSSING THE BORDER IS NOT A CRIME

What part of that sentence do you not understand? It's not my fault that the legal community bandies a word about and then it doesn't apply.

Next point: You have this cheering section on this board that has raised holy hell trying to prove that entering the United States is a crime. They have to insert the word crime in a statute that specifically reads IMPROPER. The word is improper; it is not unlawful nor illegal. It is a civil offense of improper entry. Improper is NOT synonymous with the words unlawful and / or illegal... not in law and not in simple English.

Next point: If Title 8 USC 1325 were about a criminal section of the law, it would NOT reference Title 18 (EIGHTEEN) of the United States Code, but simply state that an action is unlawful or illegal. It don't; Title 8 USC does not impose a criminal penalty. It is a civil section of the law that specifically draws upon Title 18 for the criminal penalties. Anybody and everybody can use the word illegal all they want. They are incorrect. EVEN ADVOCATES ON YOUR OWN SIDE SAY SO:

For all the bitching and whining, moaning, groaning and complaining that the National Socialists do on this thread, they absolutely cannot reconcile the facts with their deliberate misinterpretation of the law. Anti - immigrant activist lawyer and U.S. Rep. James Sensenbrenner proposed to change Title 8 USC 1325 to strike the word IMPROPER and change it to read unlawful entry For all that the National Socialists do on this thread, they have not, cannot and will not admit that if improper entry were a crime, there would have been no need to change the wording of the law (see Section 203 of the House bill HR 4437) HR 4437 FAILED and the facts remain and no matter how many posts you put on this board to the contrary you cannot change the truth.

IMPROPER ENTRY IS NOT A CRIME. THE HIGHEST RANKING IMMIGRATION OFFICIALS IN THE UNITED STATES HAVE RULED SO AND YOU HAVE THE CITE IN THIS POST.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Is it really “Illegal?”

Is coming into the United States really illegal? Should it be illegal? Are the anti – immigrant / National Socialists right or wrong?

I’m going to do this in several parts because it is difficult and you should take your time, reading each post, thinking it over and responding only after meditating on the facts versus the myths widely believed.

I’m starting this thread and there is nothing new, but it if it all appears at the beginning of a thread, you can see the circus atmosphere that the National Socialists will start because they cannot prevail over the facts. All you should do is concern yourself with is the facts. YOUR Liberty depends upon it.

The first FACT is that there are no laws making it a crime to be in the United States without papers. The National Socialists will try and dispute it, but we will present irrefutable facts. The reason this is important is that if they are allowed to create bad precedents in interpreting the law, it will have a net negative impact on YOUR Rights and Liberties. So, let’s get right to it.

The only statute the National Socialists can come up with is Title 8 USC 1325 to attempt to “prove” a supposed crime of illegal immigration (which absolutely does not exist.) My commentary on the statute is in red. It is fully quoted:

8 U.S.C. § 1325 : US Code - Section 1325: Improper entry by alien

Notice that this is a civil section of the law. It is not a criminal title. It is talking about an improper action, not an illegal one.

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

Notice that under this section, several infractions / crimes are being discussed. Title 8 (Eight) does not impose a criminal penalty, but defers the criminal consequences to Title 18

If you can be imprisoned for it, its a crime.


Illegal entry is a criminal misdemeanor. It is not, however, considered an "ongoing crime" - once you enter the country, that is the crime right there, it doesn't continue past that. So an "illegal alien" isn't currently breaking any law by being here - but they had to comitt a crimnal misdemeanor to get here. If they are here 5 or more years though, the statute of limitations applies - and provided they have not comitted any other crimes, the only thing our government can do to them is send them home.

 

[Unkotare]

Be careful, pretty soon BloodyDolt will start calling you a Nazi or a KKK member or some combination of both. He's not all there.

 

[BuddyColt]

It IS illegal, title 8 section 1325 and all that. I love that you look to Regan and Bush in support of illegals. Regan killed American unions, and Bush invaded Iraq. But, that makes illegal aliens OK. Phony arguments, and false logic. Something isn't ringing true here. Like your reading of history, kiddo.

What does not ring true is your supposed cynicism of me. I've told you what the law says. Now, just for shits and giggles, let me tell you a few things YOUR side did not do... not once... ever IN TEN YEARS OF THIS DEBATE:

First, NOBODY bothered to ask me what my opinion of the law was. Now, they will never know where I stood then nor where I stand today

Second, NOBODY ever considered the fact that you were being warned for your own good. Something isn't ringing true? You asked me about why I'm really in this fight, but you didn't check out the many links I provided. Yes, I am exactly who I told you I was and yes, my life was in jeopardy because of the bad precedents YOUR side has created.

Things don't ring true because you are not being true to yourself. Some founding fathers advice:

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."

"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry."

Thomas Paine

If something isn't ringing true, it's the lynch mob mentality that seeks to prove me wrong by lying about what a statute says (the fact that they pencil the word crime into Title 8 USC 1325 is evidence of that.) If something rings false, it is the word of those who oppose what I'm saying. Instead of debating the issue, they resorted to name calling, false allegations, and even attempting to attack possible family members.

By contrast, I am giving you plenty of links and asking that you check them out. It's not Buddy Colt said this and Buddy Colt believes that, I'm leaving you with the words of the people in charge of this clusterphuck we call immigration regulations. Those people aren't arguing with me and if they were so cocksure that their position were correct, they were offered more money that anyone will offer them in their lifetimes to go to work and prove their case. Things don't ring true because there are people here so insecure in their ideology that they have to resort to children's games in order to suppress the facts... FACTS that they and most likely you will choose to ignore.

 

[Unkotare]

First, NOBODY bothered to ask me what my opinion of the law was. Now, they will never know where I stood then nor where I stand today.

And it never occurred to you that nobody gives a **** what your opinion is, you irrelevant fool?

 

[Unkotare]

my life was in jeopardy because of the bad precedents YOUR side has created.
.

This nutjob has to be ed spaceman/vampire's cousin or something.

 

[Zoom-boing]

An alien convicted of the crime of illegal immigration faces deportation from the United States if that alien is present in the country without government permission, or, if that alien is a foreign citizen and has been convicted of certain crimes.

Immigration Attorney Orange County| Boxer Mc Laughlin


Buttercup, make sure you collect lots of dry wood for yer cave dwelling, mkay?

Your quote is "an alien convicted of the crime of illegal immigration faces deportation..."

You have not cited a single authoritative source. Let me give you a RULING. This RULING is from the highest ranking immigration official in the United States:

" (2) Aliens in removal proceedings have no right to counsel, including Government-appointed
counsel, under the Sixth Amendment of the Constitution because the Sixth Amendment
applies only to criminal proceedings and removal proceedings are civil in nature."

http://www.justice.gov/eoir/vll/intdec/vol24/3632.pdf

A foreigner sits before the highest ranking immigration official in the United States. The statute in question is Title 8 USC 1325. That official denies to the foreigner a taxpayer funded attorney on the basis that Title 8 USC 1325 is NOT a crime and deportation is a CIVIL matter.

You cannot change the ruling with an advertisement or penciling in the word crime where it is absolutely NOT in the statute.

Secondly, the legal community bandies the word "illegal" around and Michael Mukasey gave the American Bar Association the equivalent of a lecture on their application of the law relative to that point:

"Not every wrong, or even every violation of the law, is a crime."

The liberal ABA has this habit of calling everything a crime if they can find any nuance in legal parlance that addresses it. Again, here is proof that the legal community will say the word "illegal" and then explain to you that we are not talking about a crime. Save yourself about 5000 keystrokes and listen to what the HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND (IN) SECURITY SAYS:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTqim4Se70k]Napolitano: Illegally Crossing Mexican Border's Not A Crime. All Terrorists Crossed Canadian Border - YouTube[/ame]

Listen to the words: CROSSING THE BORDER IS NOT A CRIME

What part of that sentence do you not understand? It's not my fault that the legal community bandies a word about and then it doesn't apply.

Next point: You have this cheering section on this board that has raised holy hell trying to prove that entering the United States is a crime. They have to insert the word crime in a statute that specifically reads IMPROPER. The word is improper; it is not unlawful nor illegal. It is a civil offense of improper entry. Improper is NOT synonymous with the words unlawful and / or illegal... not in law and not in simple English.

Next point: If Title 8 USC 1325 were about a criminal section of the law, it would NOT reference Title 18 (EIGHTEEN) of the United States Code, but simply state that an action is unlawful or illegal. It don't; Title 8 USC does not impose a criminal penalty. It is a civil section of the law that specifically draws upon Title 18 for the criminal penalties. Anybody and everybody can use the word illegal all they want. They are incorrect. EVEN ADVOCATES ON YOUR OWN SIDE SAY SO:

For all the bitching and whining, moaning, groaning and complaining that the National Socialists do on this thread, they absolutely cannot reconcile the facts with their deliberate misinterpretation of the law. Anti - immigrant activist lawyer and U.S. Rep. James Sensenbrenner proposed to change Title 8 USC 1325 to strike the word IMPROPER and change it to read unlawful entry For all that the National Socialists do on this thread, they have not, cannot and will not admit that if improper entry were a crime, there would have been no need to change the wording of the law (see Section 203 of the House bill HR 4437) HR 4437 FAILED and the facts remain and no matter how many posts you put on this board to the contrary you cannot change the truth.

IMPROPER ENTRY IS NOT A CRIME. THE HIGHEST RANKING IMMIGRATION OFFICIALS IN THE UNITED STATES HAVE RULED SO AND YOU HAVE THE CITE IN THIS POST.

Napalitano stating it is not a crime doesn't make is so, buttercup.

Why didn't they change the wording from "improper" to "unlawful" if "improper" already means "unlawful"?. Already answered earlier but I'll repeat it: because if they changed the term to "unlawful" then dipshit politicians and those in charge, like Napolitano, couldn't manipulate and massage the meaning. You know, like they're doing when they say that entering the U.S. in an improper manner isn't really a crime.

Your question:

For those who might be here, watching this circus unfold, if you doubt what I said is true, pick up the phone and call any immigration lawyer. Ask them if the disputed statute is civil law or criminal law and whether an IMPROPER ENTRY is a crime.

I cited 3 lawyers who all state it is a crime to enter the U.S. in an improper/illegal manner. (hint: because entering the U.S. in an improper/illegal manner IS a crime).

I also cited the Criminal Resource Manual.

Illegal entry, marriage or establishing a business for evading immigration laws: Section 1325 sets forth criminal offenses relating to (1) improper entry into the United States by an alien, (2) entry into marriage for the purpose of evading immigration laws, and (3) establishing a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading immigration laws.

Criminal Resource Manual 1911 8 U.S.C. 1325 -- Unlawful Entry, Failure to Depart, Fleeing Immigration Checkpoints, Marriage Fraud, Commercial Enterprise Fraud

You asked, were answered, didn't like the answer so you moved the goal post. *yawn*

Stop blathering on again stating that because the proceedings to deport someone who has entered the U.S. improperly are civil that equals entering the U.S. in a manner not in accordance with the law is a civil offense, because it isn't. IT IS A CRIME.

Once again, for the comprehension impaired: Section 1325 sets forth criminal offenses relating to (1) improper entry into the United States by an alien, etc.

And, once again for the comprehension impaired, the above is from the CRIMINAL RESOURCE MANUAL.

Getting a little stuffy in that cave, buttercup?

 

[Liability]

* * * *


If you can be imprisoned for it, its a crime.

Correct.

Illegal entry is a criminal misdemeanor. It is not, however, considered an "ongoing crime" - once you enter the country, that is the crime right there, it doesn't continue past that. So an "illegal alien" isn't currently breaking any law by being here - but they had to comitt a crimnal misdemeanor to get here.

Also correct. Although many people think it SHOULD be an ongoing crime, at present it simply isn't. So, entering illegally (the crime known as "improper entry") is the crime. Once in, the alien's presence is simply not authorized.

IF the alien is not prosecuted for the initial illegal (improper) entry, he or she CAN, still, be detained and subject to a REMOVAL PROCEEDING which is not a criminal proceeding. The latter is indeed a civil or administrative proceeding.

If they are here 5 or more years though, the statute of limitations applies - and provided they have not comitted any other crimes, the only thing our government can do to them is send them home.

Correct. Since it IS a criminal statute (improper entry), the criminal law provision called the statute of limitations DOES apply.

DuddlyDolt wants to have it both ways. Application denied. None of this is new. It was all decided long before he started airing his ignorant beliefs as though they were facts. Alas, his ignorant belief is not fact. Never was.

DuddlyDolt remains, simply, wrong.

 

[BuddyColt]

Zoom-boing,

It's about time to end this B.S. right here and right now. Repeating the advertising literature of lawyers is not the same as picking up the phone and asking one to end this argument by telling you whether we're talking crime or civil action.

What you just did was the equivalent of quoting a commercial for sugar based cereal with the slogan "it's good for you." Game time is over. If you cannot understand what I'm about to say, you don't have even a high school understanding of civics.

First, as stated, you buy into the sales literature of lawyers, but then claim they're stretching the truth about why they do or do not consider entry a crime.

Now you can call me names all day long. You won't be the first dickless chickenshit to do it. The real issue is what you would say to a man's face. I won't waste time on you further if you think you can lure me into some kind of ****** ass relationship as been offered by your cheering section. I'm heterosexual. So, I'm showing you the same degree of respect you've shown me.

Next point: It is a FACT that the highest ranking immigration official in the United States RULED that deportation proceedings were civil, not criminal. In his RULING, Attorney General Mukasey cites many federal cases to uphold his ruling

Next: It is a FACT that RULINGS by the Attorney General in cases governed by Title 8 USC 1325 are the law; it is well within their exclusive jurisdiction and until over-ruled in a federal district court or above, everything you say is conjecture

Next: It is a FACT that the forum where improper entry cases are decided is NOT a criminal court, but a civil proceeding. I cited the relevant RULING on that

Next: It is FACT that Title 8 does not impose a criminal penalty, but references Title 18 for the criminal penalty. You can't overcome that - even with calling me a hundred names and posting commercials or lies in the biggest type this board will hold

Next: It is a FACT that improper entry is NOT in Title 18 of the U.S. Code, but making false / misleading statements, eluding authorities, etc. ARE in Title 18

Next: It is a FACT that Congress debated changing the law to make improper entry a crime. If it were a crime, there would be no need to change the law.


Finally, here is a free civics lesson. If you argue your case beyond this point, the ONLY people you will have fooled are those who cannot produce anything except name calling and off point cases they dug up off of Google. What I'm going to say is plain old common horse sense, so pay attention:

Title 8 USC 1325 is in a civil section of the law. In the first four posts on this thread we examined virtually every point in the interpretation of the law save of two points - and I honestly wrote my opening posts with the idea that everyone reading it had a grade school knowledge of civics.

Not only is the law plain, but ANYBODY that took grade school civics knows that the most serious of criminal activities usually generates the most severe consequences.

Under this interpretation you claim that a civil infraction is a crime. You absolutely cannot show me improper entry in Title 18 of the United States Code which is the CRIMINAL CODE. But, I can show you where eluding the authorities IS in Title 18. I can show you where making false / misleading statements are crimes in Title 18. But you cannot show me where improper entry is a crime in Title 18. But, here is your free civics lesson:

The FIFTH Amendment to the United States Constitution provides:

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation"

Do you see that highlighted section? You cannot try a person for a crime TWICE. The civil penalty for an improper entry is a maximum of $250 CIVIL FINE.

Civil law is civil law; criminal law is criminal. The statute makes it plain. The $250 maximum civil penalty of improper entry cannot be used to offset a separate count of eluding authorities, for example. AND, if a person is sentenced to $1000 fine for eluding authorities, that fine cannot be used to offset the improper entry. Since you cannot try a person twice, a civil fine is a civil fine. It is not a crime. Remember that little ditty and you'll be doing fine. So, to be consistent:

If eluding the authorities is a crime under Title 18 and making false / misleading statements is a crime under Title 18 AND if marriage fraud and entrepreneurship fraud are crimes under Title 18, then improper entry would have to be a crime under Title 18.

Back to my original question: If civil proceedings are crimes, then what criminal act do defendants in a divorce commit? Does everybody that gets a divorce pay a criminal fine? Does their criminal act keep them from getting a job due to their criminal record...

OR are you beginning to get the picture?

 

[Liability]

DuddlyDolt:
Evading, ducking, bobbing and weaving away form indisputable facts -- as you keep doing -- doesn't support your erroneous claims.

Your behavior serves only to confirm that you re a dishonest *****.

Once again, the law called "improper entry" is a criminal law providing (as only a criminal law can) for criminal penalties like jail or prison. It is a criminal statute no matter how much you piss, moan, groan, cry and lie.

A REMOVAL proceeding is not criminal. It is civil or administrative in nature. Thus, even if the alien is detained in a detention facility, that is not criminal in nature since the detention is simply to assure that the alien can ultimately be deported if that is the outcome of the proceeding.

Once again: reality wins. You lose.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Buttercup,

You've been given information from immigration lawyers that clearly state entering the U.S. illegally is a crime. You didn't like that answer so you move the goal post (again) and say 'call them' and ramble on about sugar cereal and sales literature. wtf? Get a grip (hey Lia, I spelled it right this time!). The lawyers aren't sugar-coating anything; they are stating that entering the U.S. illegally is a crime because entering the U.S. illegally is a crime. Duh.

deportation proceedings were civil,

And? No one is arguing that the deportation proceedings aren't civil; however, entering the U.S. illegally (improperly) is criminal punishable by "being fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both."

Title 18. Criminal.

If entering the U.S. illegally is a civil offense (as you incorrectly claim), then why is it listed in the Criminal Resource Manual? The answer is simple: because it is a crime. Duh.

Section 1325 sets forth criminal offenses relating to (1) improper entry into the United States by an alien, etc.

And, once again for the comprehension impaired, the above is from the CRIMINAL Resource Manual, link below.

Criminal Resource Manual 1911 8 U.S.C. 1325 -- Unlawful Entry, Failure to Depart, Fleeing Immigration Checkpoints, Marriage Fraud, Commercial Enterprise Fraud


Liability explains it (yet again). See if you can comprehend, muchacho.

* * * *

If you can be imprisoned for it, its a crime.

Correct.

Illegal entry is a criminal misdemeanor. It is not, however, considered an "ongoing crime" - once you enter the country, that is the crime right there, it doesn't continue past that. So an "illegal alien" isn't currently breaking any law by being here - but they had to comitt a crimnal misdemeanor to get here.

Also correct. Although many people think it SHOULD be an ongoing crime, at present it simply isn't. So, entering illegally (the crime known as "improper entry") is the crime. Once in, the alien's presence is simply not authorized.

IF the alien is not prosecuted for the initial illegal (improper) entry, he or she CAN, still, be detained and subject to a REMOVAL PROCEEDING which is not a criminal proceeding. The latter is indeed a civil or administrative proceeding.

If they are here 5 or more years though, the statute of limitations applies - and provided they have not comitted any other crimes, the only thing our government can do to them is send them home.

Correct. Since it IS a criminal statute (improper entry), the criminal law provision called the statute of limitations DOES apply.

DuddlyDolt wants to have it both ways. Application denied. None of this is new. It was all decided long before he started airing his ignorant beliefs as though they were facts. Alas, his ignorant belief is not fact. Never was.

DuddlyDolt remains, simply, wrong.

dickless chickenshit

I am dickless but am far from chickenshit.

 

[BuddyColt]

DuddlyDolt:
Evading, ducking, bobbing and weaving away form indisputable facts -- as you keep doing -- doesn't support your erroneous claims.

Your behavior serves only to confirm that you re a dishonest *****.

Once again, the law called "improper entry" is a criminal law providing (as only a criminal law can) for criminal penalties like jail or prison. It is a criminal statute no matter how much you piss, moan, groan, cry and lie.

A REMOVAL proceeding is not criminal. It is civil or administrative in nature. Thus, even if the alien is detained in a detention facility, that is not criminal in nature since the detention is simply to assure that the alien can ultimately be deported if that is the outcome of the proceeding.

Once again: reality wins. You lose.

I'll tell you like I told someone on this board what I thought of them. You talk a lot of trash, but you FAIL. That's why you need the name calling and the fancy avatar and all the pics, fancy and colorful type.

Your problem is, you are keyboard commando that has never held a full time job; you have relatively little education and no respect for your fellow man. I'm not going to get into your pissing match.

I would tell anyone that has a question about this thread, rather than try to explain it, go to an attorney OR maybe a local college that has a law library. Show this to someone that has a law degree (lawyer, judge or even law librarian.) Ask them to show you any fact that I have misrepresented in the course of this thread.

LIE Ability has presented his view that civil laws are crimes, but the fact is they most assuredly are not. He's been asked and answered... he has not reciprocated. Telling people things that ARE NOT true, LIE Ability won't make them come true no matter what size font you use, no matter what you call me, and no matter how many times you say it.

I'll tell you the same thing I told your boy toy. You've written things on this board that you would not say to my face. Had I said them to you, I'd be wanting a fight. So, if you are bucking to see if I will or won't, I have a PM here. I'm not a hard man to find. Win, lose or draw I will not take a step backward from you.

You've shown that you cannot engage in civil discourse without the name calling and the bullshit. You've proven not to be worthy of my time or my interest, so now you've been told and I don't have to respond to you further. If you want something from me, PM me. Other than that, you are not worth my time and if people rely on you for legal advice, they will be bankrupt before the end of that business day.

So, the people reading and not commenting can make their decision based upon the research they do relative to the links provided.

 

[Zoom-boing]

You talk a lot of trash, but you FAIL. That's why you need the name calling and the fancy avatar and all the pics, fancy and colorful type.

You've shown that you cannot engage in civil discourse without the name calling and the bullshit

*snipped because the rest of your post is bullshit

You were nothing but rude, condescending, an utter ass to me in this thread, from your first response to me. http://www.usmessageboard.com/immig...t-says-illegal-immigrants-cant-have-guns.html (and if you note, I remained civil and polite to you despite your name calling and insults).

So you fail because of your name calling and fancy, colorful type.

Adios, muchacho.