Is it Possible for Israel and Palestine to Peacefully Coexist?

[Failzero]

The Marxists have abandoned Israel ( Practicing Joooos )

 

[Shusha]

I am dismayed by this vitriolic hostility to an honest question about history of Israeli-Palestinian relations. If this represents the views of the parties involved, I will be inclined to support a US pull-out and let them kill each other.

You are, in this post, conflating "hostility" towards the ignorance of those who choose to engage in the conversation about the conflict with the "views of the parties involved". These are two very separate things. People who have limited information, knowledge, expertise can correctly be called out for that ignorance without gilding the entire conflict by that same ignorance.

Perhaps, instead of being "dismayed", you might want to explore why you were previously unaware that Israel has made space for sovereignty for Palestine.

 

[Failzero]

You are, in this post, conflating "hostility" towards the ignorance of those who choose to engage in the conversation about the conflict with the "views of the parties involved". These are two very separate things. People who have limited information, knowledge, expertise can correctly be called out for that ignorance without gilding the entire conflict by that same ignorance.

Perhaps, instead of being "dismayed", you might want to explore why you were previously unaware that Israel has made space for sovereignty for Palestine.

The Arabs have shown that Land for peace is suicidal for Israelis

 

[Cassandro]

People who have limited information, knowledge, expertise can correctly be called out for that ignorance without gilding the entire conflict by that same ignorance.

I would rather have limited information than limited intellectual capacity and emotional control.

 

[Cassandro]

The Arabs have shown that Land for peace is suicidal for Israelis

I agree that trading land for peace has been a bad idea, both in practice and in principle. If it is viewed as offering to give back stolen property in exchange for legal exoneration, it will only deepen mistrust and hostility. I am under no illusion about the generational hatred fostered by the Palestinians, but their continuous occupation by Israel without legal basis rallies the rest of the world in their defense.

As I have said before, I think it might be better for Israel to officially recognize Palestine as an independent State and then declare war against it if/when it attacks Israel. Why is this such a difficult concept to consider?

 

[Failzero]

I agree that trading land for peace has been a bad idea, both in practice and in principle. If it is viewed as offering to give back stolen property in exchange for legal exoneration, it will only deepen mistrust and hostility. I am under no illusion about the generational hatred fostered by the Palestinians, but their continuous occupation by Israel without legal basis rallies the rest of the world in their defense.

As I have said before, I think it might be better for Israel to officially recognize Palestine as an independent State and then declare war against it if/when it attacks Israel. Why is this such a difficult concept to consider?

Because Palestine is not a State and even the Brits did not declare it one

 

[Cassandro]

Because Palestine is not a State and even the Brits did not declare it one

What question are you attempting to answer?

 

[Shusha]

I agree that trading land for peace has been a bad idea, both in practice and in principle. If it is viewed as offering to give back stolen property in exchange for legal exoneration, it will only deepen mistrust and hostility. I am under no illusion about the generational hatred fostered by the Palestinians, but their continuous occupation by Israel without legal basis rallies the rest of the world in their defense.

As I have said before, I think it might be better for Israel to officially recognize Palestine as an independent State and then declare war against it if/when it attacks Israel. Why is this such a difficult concept to consider?

I agree that viewing the emergence of yet another (or two more) states in the Mandate for Palestine territory as "giving back stolen property" only deeps mistrust and hostility. The world needs to stop rallying around this idea.

Israel occupies no one's territory but her own and is in full compliance with international law. When the world supports a Palestine which accepts that fact and requires Palestine to develop and fulfill the conditions necessary for statehood, we have a chance at peace.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I agree that trading land for peace has been a bad idea, both in practice and in principle. If it is viewed as offering to give back stolen property in exchange for legal exoneration, it will only deepen mistrust and hostility. I am under no illusion about the generational hatred fostered by the Palestinians, but their continuous occupation by Israel without legal basis rallies the rest of the world in their defense.

As I have said before, I think it might be better for Israel to officially recognize Palestine as an independent State and then declare war against it if/when it attacks Israel. Why is this such a difficult concept to consider?

It is not a difficult concept to understand, but what is difficult to understand is how anyone could be so stupid as to think recognizing a state of "Palestine" would be an improvement on the present situation.

Even beyond this, what is Palestine? According to the so called Palestinian people, it includes all of Israel and even the PA officially claims it includes all the Israeli communities in the West Bank and Jerusalem.

 

[José]

Originally posted by toomuchtime
It is not a difficult concept to understand, but what is difficult to understand is how anyone could be so stupid as to think recognizing a state of "Palestine" would be an improvement on the present situation.

After this "knockout punch" the moderators should close this thread because there's nothing else to be added.

Repeating the main message in the vain hope that it will get into jwoodie's thick skull:

what is difficult to understand is how anyone could be so stupid as to think
recognizing a state of "Palestine" would be an improvement on the present situation.​

 

[José]

My little baby jwoodie mistakenly thinks that a formal "recognition" as a single "country" or two separate "countries" of the racial corals of Gaza and the WB would give Israel's massive bombing campaign after rockets innevitably started falling on Jerusalem and Tel Aviv a strong or nearly universal support on the part of the international community.

He fantasizes about the world rallying around Israel after it were "attacked" by a formally recognized country.

He imagines that the formal "recognition" would give Israel's bombing campaign an "international legitimacy" it never had before.

This is a fairy tale, a geopolitical fantasy that only exists inside jwoodie's head.

Regardless of any unilateral recognition by Israel, the world reaction would be exactly the same we are seeing now, during the war in Gaza:

Half of the world supporting the Dantesque spectacle of a racial dictatorship practicing the wholesale massacre of a defenseless native population that it herded into 2 racial enclaves 70 years ago and the other half condemning this monstrosity.

 

[José]

Every single day a new stupid idea pops into the mind of one of my zionist little babies just to prove that Nature abhors a vacuum.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Regardless of any unilateral recognition by Israel, the world reaction would be exactly the same we are seeing now, during the war in Gaza:

Lots of whining by morons.

 

[Failzero]

Every single day a new stupid idea pops into the mind of one of my zionist little babies just to prove that Nature abhors a vacuum.

Stupid ideas ( Hallucinations in a Cave that an Angel spoke to you )

 

[Shusha]

Regardless of any unilateral recognition by Israel, the world reaction would be exactly the same we are seeing now, during the war in Gaza:

This was made patently obvious by how quickly the "world" labelled Israel's response to Lebanon (oh lookie a recognized State) as "another genocide".

 

[Ringo]

Muslims are bad and jews are good

 

[USAF 2023]

In that case Israel should formally recognize Palestine and then declare war if Palestine attacks Israel.

Palestine won’t recognize Israel

 

[Coyote]

…

Sure. We can start with that. But let's be specific. What "daily degradations"? Be specific about the people you are referring to (like really specific) and what lack of rights you are referring to (and again like really specific).

Here are some examples of how rights rights are affected compared to Israeli citizens.

• Over half of the obstacles (339 out of 645) have been assessed by OCHA to have a severe impact on Palestinians by preventing or restricting access and movement to main roads, urban centres, services, and agricultural areas.
• In 2022, Israeli forces also deployed an average of four ad hoc 'flying' checkpoints each week along West Bank roads.

Depending on where he lives, an average Palestinian may have to contend with multiple check points that may or may not be manned, may be closed and that may be random and unpredictable in order to get from where he lives in tbe West Bank to where he works, also in the West Bank.

• In addition, the 712 kilometre-long Israeli Barrier (65% of which is built) runs mostly inside the West Bank. Most Palestinian farmers with land isolated by the Barrier can access their groves through 69 gates; however, most of the time, the Israeli authorities keep these gates shut.

Farmers are effectively prevented from accessing their own property, cultivating it, collecting the produce which has an adverse financial effect. They can be arbritarily prevented from access in particular when they are close to settlements. Unlike other national borders these “borders” are continuously changing depending on Israeli needs.

Checkpoints and barriers bisect farm property which can have a big impact on farming if they are only allowed access twice a year.

The first map is from 2016, so I’m not sure if a lot has changed but you can see how convoluted the physical wall barrier is. The second is of the many different partial barriers and check points.

Israel’s Security Barrier | Ispeacestillpossible

www.ispeacestillpossible.com

As example, a Canadian who works in the US crosses the border every day in order to go to work. This crossing involves waiting in line, responding to questions from border security, sometimes document checks, sometimes vehicle inspections. Is this procedure inherently "degrading"? Why or why not?

Let’s compare crossing the Canadian border with Palestine/Israel.

First…there is only one border to cross. One check point.

Wait times:
Canadian border check points, max wait 35 minutes.

What is the average for the most populous West Bank or Jerusalem ones? What about multiple ones? Are Israeli citizens forced to use check points to go from one part of their farms to another ir are the roads and barriers conveniently set up or restricted so they do not?

 

[Coyote]

Palestine won’t recognize Israel

The PO recognized Israel and it’s right to exist in peace.

 

[Coyote]

This was made patently obvious by how quickly the "world" labelled Israel's response to Lebanon (oh lookie a recognized State) as "another genocide".

Israel had a global level of support after October 7, much as we did post 911.