Is it Possible for Israel and Palestine to Peacefully Coexist?

[Shusha]

That is interesting thought. I’ve thought of identity in terms of a negative identity or of how it can become “other ism”.

Interesting, right?!

I read an interesting article in relation to the conflicts in CAR. The gist of it was when a state cannot or will not protect or represent all of its citizens and national identity is weak or absent, people turn towards ethnic, religious or tribal identity for protection.

This rings absolutely true to me. And I think this is one of (the?) issue with the Palestinians. I hate to say that the Palestinian national identity is weak or absent, that seems like something they would rightly push back on, but their national identity is SO much tied into competition with(?) usurping(?) claiming(?) contrasting with(?) denying(?) the Jewish national identity. In addition, their national identity is so braided with being Muslim, and being Arab. And somehow out of all that they ALSO have to carve out a distinct identity just for themselves that is unique. And all this without viable leadership.

 

[Shusha]

I get the need for security. Israel is taking advantage of the break down in Syria to take territory that doesn’t belong to it and is not disputed territory.

I just wanted to touch on this a little bit more. It is SO relevant to this thread. Plenty of people claim "I get the need for security" and then "but..." (or equivalent) so fast that the head spins.

What do we mean when we say "security"? Security means creating circumstances where the enemy (belligerent) is unable or unwilling to continue attacking you. It is not measured in teaspoons. It is not an exact science. It is not subject to timelines. It makes intended and limited sacrifices. It causes intended harm. (Limited, if done within the confines of international law). It is not equivalent to "peace".

Everyone "gets" the need for security. But almost no one "gets" the actions that are required to create security:

• intelligence
• walls and fences
• checkpoints
• buffer zones
• control of militarily advantageous territory (high ground)
• destruction of military objectives: personnel, weapons, manufacturing infrastructure

And then, once we get through the bs that is the "I get security but...", Israel gets special treatment just for her. See, when belligerents attack Israel, Israel is somehow masterminding ... something.

 

[Jarlaxle]

I don't think the language of "stupid" or "evil" is helpful to the conversation, but its hard to argue with the reality that the Arab Palestinians sure don't seem to be capable of creating a viable state.

Their reputation as human locusts is well earned.

 

[Shusha]

Their reputation as human locusts is well earned.

Not helpful. And just as vile as those demonizing Israel and Jews.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Not helpful. And just as vile as those demonizing Israel and Jews.

IDGAFFAARD. Sometimes, reality is harsh.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

I hate to say that the Palestinian national identity is weak or absent,

Before 1948, the adjective “Palestinian” was very often used as a synonym for “Jewish.”

 

[ESay]

I read an interesting article in relation to the conflicts in CAR. The gist of it was when a state cannot or will not protect or represent all of its citizens and national identity is weak or absent, people turn towards ethnic, religious or tribal identity for protection. Many states that fall into this category are states with artificial boundaries incorporating groups who are normally antagonistic to each other or separating groups that belong together. I think one of the many problems in the ME is there are many ethnic identities forced to assume a national identity they don’t yet feel a part of. This is going to be a huge problem for Syria

This is more than true for the ME. As a whole, my stance is quite sceptical on any talks about artificial nations and artificial states. Every nation can be described as artificial, after all. But looking on two prominent countries of the ME - Iraq and Syria - their 'artificial' nature is maybe the first thing that comes into mind.

Created by European imperial powers, without any regard to ethnic and religious differences of people inside the new borders. This aspect alone caused troubles for the region and generations to come.

What makes things worse, is that this problem can't be resolved 'easily', simply by dividing these countries in accordance with their national and confessional features. If say the Iraqi Shias, Kurds, and Alawites will gladly accept the statehood of the regions they settle in; but the Iraqi and Syrian Sunnis may object to such partition. Since, they will get only inner regions, consisting mostly of the desert, without natural resources and the sea.

Such possible division may well lead to Lebanon being also divided according to confessional lines. In this case, the Maronite question arises. Also, the Turkish factor can't be ignored, who won't tolerate any Kurdish state on their borders. Too many questions without answers.

 

[Shusha]

Before 1948, the adjective “Palestinian” was very often used as a synonym for “Jewish.”

Relevant to the current conversation, how?

 

[Shusha]

I think ultimately they want a future that doesn’t involve the daily degradations and lack of dignity and rights that they currently live with under with Israel ...

Sure. We can start with that. But let's be specific. What "daily degradations"? Be specific about the people you are referring to (like really specific) and what lack of rights you are referring to (and again like really specific).

As example, a Canadian who works in the US crosses the border every day in order to go to work. This crossing involves waiting in line, responding to questions from border security, sometimes document checks, sometimes vehicle inspections. Is this procedure inherently "degrading"? Why or why not?

 

[ShahdagMountains]

Relevant to the current conversation, how?

That there’s no such thing as Palestine?

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Why don't you explain it to me?

P.S. Don't forget the Rothschild loans and Balfour Declaration.

The Jews Are Taking a Bullet for the Rest of Us

The well-educated British and French didn't forget the recurring jihad and set up the Jewish Homeland as a decoy to the next one. Of course, it would have been undiplomatic to reveal that.

 

[José]

The Jews Are Taking a Bullet for the Rest of Us

The Sage of Main Street
​

The hell they are!!

They are putting you in the line of fire.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Palestinians can co-exist if moved to Madagascar.

 

[toomuchtime_]

The Jews Are Taking a Bullet for the Rest of Us

The Sage of Main Street
​

The hell they are!!

They are putting you in the line of fire.

With the Iranian axis teetering on the brink of collapse, these threats are even more ridiculous.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

IMO that has always been in the background, and there certainly is certainly a political faction that wants that. How much power they actually have to do it remains to be seen. This reminds me of the US, westward expansion, native peoples and Manifest Destiny.

Honor the Horror

The RichKid Reich considers both Whites in America and Jews in the Middle East as low-class murdering invaders.

The British heiristocracy wanted to confine the American colonists to Atlantic coast ghettos, then turn them into peasants subject to the second-son nobility who would come over and take charge. The plan was that the brother of the Duke of York would become the Duke of New York.

Our own guillotine-fodder always supported, protected, and armed the savages against the disempowered pioneers. It cannot be denied that now the HeirHead Harvard Hierarchy wallows in Wahhabiism. Anti-racism is for spoiled sheltered snobs and wannabe Preppies. Allowing birth privileges is the death of a nation

 

[José]

Originally posted by toomuchtime
With the Iranian axis teetering on the brink of collapse, these threats are even more ridiculous.

I still remember the american press downplaying and even mocking the threat posed by islamic groups in the 90's... just like you are doing now.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

The Jews Are Taking a Bullet for the Rest of Us

The Sage of Main Street
​

The hell they are!!

They are putting you in the line of fire.

September 11, 1683 Was the Peak of the Last Jihad

I'm sure that if we had handed all our Jews over to Hitler, he would have left us out of his drive for world conquest. He only declared war on us because we wouldn't do that.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Because the Syrians had been using them to shell Israeli civilians for decades AND Syria attacked Israel. Losing territory is often the result of a defeat in a war.

Dumb Warrior Jealous of Smart Warrior

LBJ used the spy ship USS Liberty to warn the Syrians that they needed to fortify the Golan Heights. Then the Israelis made sure that the full message was interrupted.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

It is precisely this extraordinary level of ignorance and bigotry you display that sustains and even encourages the violence. What the Arabs have suffered from is their own refusal to live in peace with Jews, nothing more.

Had the Arabs not invaded the new state of Israel in 1948 with the announced intent to eradicate the Jews, Israel would not have grown from 14, 900 sq. miles to 20, 500 sq. miles as defined by the 1949 armistice agreement.

https://israeled.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/comparison-1947-partition-plan.pdf

Had the Arabs been willing to live in peace with the Jews, this never would have happened.

In 1967 the Arabs tried to destroy Israel by closing the Straits of Tiran through which 90% of Israe's oil was delivered, thus starting the Six Day War, and while fighting back attacking armies from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq, Israel came into possession of Sinai, Gaza, Golan, West Bank. Immediately after the war, Israel offered to return all of these lands in exchange for peace with the countries that lost them, but again the Arabs refused.

Had the Arabs been willing to live in peace with the Jews, none of this would have happened.

Although the so called Palestinians had never been taken seriously as a people by the Arab world until after the 1967 war, Israel had offered to recognize a Palestinian state comprising 93% of the West Bank, all of Gaza, joint jurisdiction over Jerusalem and an overpass under the control of the Palestinians connecting Gaza to the West Bank but the Arabs responded with the second intifada and when Sharon withdrew from Gaza in 2005 in an effort to get the Palestinians to reconsider the offer, the Palestinians responded by launching attacks on Israel that have led to the present war.

None of this would have happened if the Arabs had been willing to live in peace with the Jews.

Only a mind as grotesquely warped by hatred and bigotry as yours would compare this history to what happened to native Americans in the US.

Gentleman's Agreement

All that appeasement was forced on Israel by the State Department, which made the jihadists believe that the Americans weren't protecting themselves, either. They were right.


The tactic of hijacking an airliner and using it as a bomb against tall buildings was revealed by Israeli Intelligence in February, 1973. But our upper-class CIA never took anything seriously if it came from the Jews.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

I don't think the language of "stupid" or "evil" is helpful to the conversation, but its hard to argue with the reality that the Arab Palestinians sure don't seem to be capable of creating a viable state.

The Empire of Sandstorms

All they are capable of being is roaming desert bandits.