Is it Possible for Israel and Palestine to Peacefully Coexist?

[Coyote]

I don't think you understand the goal here. Its not a reset to October 6. Israel is dismantling Hamas. Entirely. Israel is disabling Hamas to such an extent that there is no chance of an October 7 attack again. Israel is not looking for "opportunities", it is demanding surrender.

I understand what you think the goal is (or should be). This is a different take on it:

A top ex-general’s radical strategy for tackling Iran, saving the hostages, calming the north

Giora Eiland, a former national security adviser and ex-IDF operations chief, has been bitterly critical of Israel's response to October 7; here he sets out an alternative approach

www.timesofisrael.com

Nope. I don't buy that argument. Hamas can absolutely be rendered inoperable by military means. It can be kept inoperable by military means. The thinly disguised attempt at victim-blaming and making Israel responsible for the vile ideology held by the people of Gaza can also be reversed. It will take two generations, maybe more. But it can be done.

The only way the military can achieve that is through the utter destruction of and its people.

 

[Lisa558]

I don’t think there is any misunderstanding of responsibility. Why do you think there is?

Because it seems like you are blaming the Jews for everything, or otherwise holding them responsible for poor outcomes, even though it was the Islamic terrorists who started it all, and could at any moment end it by returning the hostages and surrendering.

So Israel’s goal is the destruction of Gaza (and the political preservation of the PM) over the lives of the hostages. We already know the lives of the Palestinians are of little value.

I think I am correct however in saying: the lives of the hostages are being sacrificed for a “greater goal” .

And this is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You are positing that if the hostages die, well….the Jews decided to sacrifice them for “a greater good.” As usual, it’s Israel to blame.

Why is there no mention of what those Arab savages did, and are still doing? It was THEY who kidnapped them, THEY who have been abusing and starving them for 15 month - and if the hostages die, it is the Islamic terrorists’ fault for not releasing them.

 

[Coyote]

Of course, and that’s what the Arabs did to Jews throughout the Middle East - INCLUDING kicking them out of Gaza.

As I explained, what Israel is doing is not ethnic cleansing.

If you think it is an atrocity why do support the mass expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza?

 

[Lisa558]

If you think it is an atrocity why do support the mass expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza?

Oye. I just said it was NOT an ethnic cleansing. And they’re not, as you pointing out, trying to move all of the Muslims (there really is no such thing as Palestinians) out of Gaza - it’s just the northern part. AND it’s being done to try to limit the civilian casualties as Israel moves into HAMAS’ last stronghold.

To repeat….there is no ethnic cleansing. There is no genocide.

If the Islamic terrorists would return the hostages and surrender, this would be over. The fault lies with the Islamists.

 

[Lisa558]

Shusha

It really seems that the Jews - oops, I mean Israel - can’t win. If they try to move the Gazans out of the north to save their lives, it’s ethnic cleansing. If they don’t, it’s genocide.

No matter what the Jews do, some people will find a way to blame them.

 

[Coyote]

Because it seems like you are blaming the Jews for everything, or otherwise holding them responsible for poor outcomes, even though it was the Islamic terrorists who started it all, and could at any moment end it by returning the hostages and surrendering.

I’m holding them responsible, along with Hamas, for the devastation inflicted on Gaza that has now gone beyond what is needed to eradicate Hamas and continues with no plan for what is next.

And this is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You are positing that if the hostages die, well….the Jews decided to sacrifice them for “a greater good.” As usual, it’s Israel to blame.

I am making an argument that has also been made by Israelis and the families of those held hostage. You keep making it about Jews and not state actors.

Why is there no mention of what those Arab savages did, and are still doing? It was THEY who kidnapped them, THEY who have been abusing and starving them for 15 month - and if the hostages die, it is the Arabs fault for not releasing them.

Because there is no equal opportunity requirement that says I need to. Why is there no mention about the thousands of Gazan children blown up, burned, dismembered and lost in this war. I mean hell, if you expect others to … well set an example.

 

[Coyote]

Oye. I just said it was NOT an ethnic cleansing.

You’ve supported ethnic cleansing in other arguments.

And they’re not, as you pointing out, trying to move all of the Muslims (there really is no such thing as Palestinians) out of Gaza - it’s just the northern part. AND it’s being done to try to limit the civilian casualties as Israel moves into HAMAS’ last stronghold.

Yes, there are Palestinians. They are a people just as Jews are.

By the way you do realize, right, that there are non-Muslim Palestinians?

To repeat….there is no ethnic cleansing. There is no genocide.

We’ll see how the war ends and what happens afterward to determine that.

If the Islamic terrorists would return the hostages and surrender, this would be over. The fault lies with the Islamists.

Would it really be over?
Will Palestinians be allowed to return home?
How will Gaza be governed?
What rights will they have?

 

[Coyote]

Shusha

It really seems that the Jews - oops, I mean Israel - can’t win. If they try to move the Gazans out of the north to save their lives, it’s ethnic cleansing. If they don’t, it’s genocide.

No matter what the Jews do, some people will find a way to blame them.

And no matter what Israel does, people like you will defend it and make it about Jews. Not all Jews support the way Israel has conducted this war.

 

[frigidweirdo]

The only thing that the Israelis and the Palestinians seem to agree on is that their opposites should not exist as sovereign countries. Is this an immutable law of religious beliefs, or is it a stubborn bargaining position that both sides have taken? Will it ultimately take the removal of millions of Israelis or Palestinians from the area to resolve this conflict?

The idea of resettling local populations to other areas has been around (and practiced) for thousands of years. [Even Hitler wanted to resettle European Jews to the French colony of Madagascar before that became unrealistic.] Are there any geographical options today that might separate these two warring parties before they annihilate each other?

Possible, yes. The problem is it would require people to stop creating problems, that's almost impossible. Right wing Israelis create problems to take land and to create the enemy, and right wing Palestinians like Hamas create problems to create an enemy. When politics becomes about hate, it's easy, having real solutions is harder, and people want to have an easy job where they gain power and money.

 

[Shusha]

I don’t think there is any misunderstanding of responsibility. Why do you think there is?

Because we are discussing what Israel must do to get the hostages back, as though it is Israel's responsibility and not Hamas' to correct their egregious commission of an atrocity and every country in the world should be coming down on Hamas for taking civilians (children!) as hostages.

 

[Shusha]

So Israel’s goal is the destruction of Gaza

Whoa. Where did I suggest that? Ever? The goal, one of them, as articulated in the post referenced, is that Hamas must receive a very clear message that taking hostages is never, ever, ever, going to result in them getting what they want (as in a 1 for 1000 Gilad Shalit deal). Israel is not playing that again. This is to save Israeli lives in the future.

over the lives of the hostages.

It is not a zero sum either/or game. It is a mistake to set the starting point at "if Israel only does the perfect thing, then she has control over the fate of the hostages. She does not, and has never had control over the hostages. That is the point of taking hostages - to control events. It would be equivalent to suggesting to an abused woman that "if she doesn't want to get beaten up, she just has to comply with her husband's demands".

Which is not to say that Israel can't and shouldn't and hasn't used everything at her disposal to get the hostages back using various means.

Claiming that Israel is "sacrificing" the hostages is just another way to demonize Israel's actions, instead of understanding the as reactions to an extremely precarious and complex situation. Much like telling the woman that she is just sacrificing her own well-being if she doesn't make her husband's sammies the right way.

We already know the lives of the Palestinians are of little value.

That is entirely uncalled for in conversation with me. You know I don't believe that. If you believe that Israelis or Jews think the Arab Palestinian lives are of little value, then I would invite you to think on what leads you to believe that, because it isn't the words or actions of Israelis or Jews.

 

[Coyote]

Because we are discussing what Israel must do to get the hostages back, as though it is Israel's responsibility and not Hamas' to correct their egregious commission of an atrocity and every country in the world should be coming down on Hamas for taking civilians (children!) as hostages.

I think that is an unhelpful way of framing it.

For one, almost every country in the world came down strongly in support of Israel and against Hamas over this. It reminded me of the outpouring of support we got after 911. Israel received an unprecedented amount of support against Hamas and for the release of the hostages. What I think you are doing is conflating a disagreement over tactics with a disagreement over responsibility.

Israel, like any state, has a responsibility to its citizens. That responsibility includes protecting them and their interests irregardless of what any other entity does. No one else’s actions alter that.

Everyday, people are taken hostage: NK, China, Iran, Russia, the Taliban, Somali pirates, and a host of smaller insurgent militias take innocent people captive and most of the time it never even hits the news. Nations need to do what they think will work to get their citizens released and often it is not a full on military campaign that gets them released. Accountability for their imprisonment lies with their captors but responsibility for doing their best to ensure their safe release lies with their nations whether it is a special forces mission, a payment of a ransom, a negotiation of prisoner exchanges or a war.

So are you arguing that continuing this war is the only way to gain the release of the hostages?

 

[gipper]

Because we are discussing what Israel must do to get the hostages back, as though it is Israel's responsibility and not Hamas' to correct their egregious commission of an atrocity and every country in the world should be coming down on Hamas for taking civilians (children!) as hostages.

You see what Hamas did as an atrocity but not what Israel has done, which is far worse.

How can you be so ignorant? Are you a Zionist?

 

[Shusha]

I understand what you think the goal is (or should be). This is a different take on it:

A top ex-general’s radical strategy for tackling Iran, saving the hostages, calming the north

Giora Eiland, a former national security adviser and ex-IDF operations chief, has been bitterly critical of Israel's response to October 7; here he sets out an alternative approach

www.timesofisrael.com

Haven't read the whole thing yet but curious about your thoughts on this:

What happened on October 7 is that the State of Gaza went to war against the State of Israel. State against state. Now, the state of Gaza does have vulnerabilities. It doesn’t have sufficient fuel, food and water of its own. You can impose a legitimate boycott on that state until the state returns all of your hostages. Humanitarian for humanitarian.

 

[Shusha]

You see what Hamas did as an atrocity but not what Israel has done, which is far worse.

How can you be so ignorant? Are you a Zionist?

Dude. Read my sig. You know I am a Zionist. Do you know what the word means?

Here's the thing - define "worse".

 

[Shusha]

I think that is an unhelpful way of framing it.

For one, almost every country in the world came down strongly in support of Israel and against Hamas over this. It reminded me of the outpouring of support we got after 911. Israel received an unprecedented amount of support against Hamas and for the release of the hostages.

You've got to be freaking kidding me. Is that what you think happened? Like, really. Serious question.

 

[Shusha]

Everyday, people are taken hostage: NK, China, Iran, Russia, the Taliban, Somali pirates, and a host of smaller insurgent militias take innocent people captive and most of the time it never even hits the news.

This would be a case of introducing me to new information. Can you name an example of a state (or other government) which crossed an international border into another state and abducted several hundreds of innocent civilians, including children, injured, and elderly. I'd be grateful for that information.

 

[Coyote]

Whoa. Where did I suggest that? Ever? The goal, one of them, as articulated in the post referenced, is that Hamas must receive a very clear message that taking hostages is never, ever, ever, going to result in them getting what they want (as in a 1 for 1000 Gilad Shalit deal). Israel is not playing that again. This is to save Israeli lives in the future.

That is one of the two opposing arguments put forth in every hostage situation:

If you pay them off, they will be incentivized to continue to take hostages. Save future lives.

If you negotiate, you may get them home. Save current lives.

Neither one is really wrong. I read an interesting article on hostages in a part of the world where taking hostages is a routine commercial enterprise. It looked at hostages from different countries (those who paid ransoms and those who didn’t and it found that not paying the ransom had no effect on whether or not a person from that country would be kidnapped in the future. It didn’t reduce it.

It is not a zero sum either/or game. It is a mistake to set the starting point at "if Israel only does the perfect thing, then she has control over the fate of the hostages. She does not, and has never had control over the hostages. That is the point of taking hostages - to control events. It would be equivalent to suggesting to an abused woman that "if she doesn't want to get beaten up, she just has to comply with her husband's demands".

That isn’t the starting point. No. Israel does not have control of the hostages and never did. What Israel has is a set of choices it can make in hopes of delivering the best outcome. Israel has control over what it chooses to do with those choices.

Looking at the abused woman analogy. Her husband is beating her, what choices does she have?
Comply and hope it ends.
Take a gun and shoot him.
Comply long enough so when he passes out drunk she can grab her kids and run for help.
(Although these are really bad examples the dynamics of personal abuse are not that simple).

Which is not to say that Israel can't and shouldn't and hasn't used everything at her disposal to get the hostages back using various means.

Claiming that Israel is "sacrificing" the hostages is just another way to demonize Israel's actions, instead of understanding the as reactions to an extremely precarious and complex situation. Much like telling the woman that she is just sacrificing her own well-being if she doesn't make her husband's sammies the right way.

I’m not the only only saying that. The families of the hostages feel that way. Are they demonizing Israel? Maybe they have a valid point.

That is entirely uncalled for in conversation with me. You know I don't believe that. If you believe that Israelis or Jews think the Arab Palestinian lives are of little value, then I would invite you to think on what leads you to believe that, because it isn't the words or actions of Israelis or Jews.

I wasn’t suggesting that you believe that at all. But many Israeli’s? I do believe they think that. Is it a majority? I don’t know.

 

[Coyote]

You've got to be freaking kidding me. Is that what you think happened? Like, really. Serious question.

Ok, fair point. Most of the news I read was supporting Israel and condemning Hamas, but that might have been reflective of mainly the western world, so I looked it up. It still shows as most condemning Hamas with (predictable) ones blaming Israel.

Loading…

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Lisa558]

That is one of the two opposing arguments put forth in every hostage situation:

If you pay them off, they will be incentivized to continue to take hostages. Save future lives.

If you negotiate, you may get them home. Save current lives.

Neither one is really wrong. I read an interesting article on hostages in a part of the world where taking hostages is a routine commercial enterprise. It looked at hostages from different countries (those who paid ransoms and those who didn’t and it found that not paying the ransom had no effect on whether or not a person from that country would be kidnapped in the future. It didn’t reduce it.




That isn’t the starting point. No. Israel does not have control of the hostages and never did. What Israel has is a set of choices it can make in hopes of delivering the best outcome. Israel has control over what it chooses to do with those choices.

Looking at the abused woman analogy. Her husband is beating her, what choices does she have?
Comply and hope it ends.
Take a gun and shoot him.
Comply long enough so when he passes out drunk she can grab her kids and run for help.
(Although these are really bad examples the dynamics of personal abuse are not that simple).



I’m not the only only saying that. The families of the hostages feel that way. Are they demonizing Israel? Maybe they have a valid point.


I wasn’t suggesting that you believe that at all. But many Israeli’s? I do believe they think that. Is it a majority? I don’t know.

You’re still totally focused on what Israel’s choices are, putting the onus on THEM to save the hostages.

What if Mexican savages crossed our border, tortured to death 1200 Americans - including toddlers and babies - and then kidnapped 300 innocent American citizens? And then they refused to release them, and starved them, and certainly raped them, for 14 months? Would you blame America for their deaths, instead of the Mexican barbarians who took them in the first place?

You’re totally focused on what the victim of 10/7 should do instead of what the perpetrator of it should do: release the hostages.