Is it Possible for Israel and Palestine to Peacefully Coexist?

[Coyote]

Compared to what? Farmers (or workers) drawing maps of Jewish villages labelling the houses with how many people lived in each so the farmer would know if he killed them all?

Or settlers firebombing occupied houses? Burning down entire villages - houses, cars and farmland? Shooting shepherds?

The purpose of the fences is not to prevent farmers from farming lands. It is for security. The land laws in Area C are complicated. I don't know that it is possible to make the claim you are making without delving into each situation on a case-by-case.

Why are they only allowed access to their land twice a week or in some cases twice a year?

Here is one specific example:

From Anin to Zbuba

www.oaklandinstitute.org

Or here, where the security wall, rerouted due to settlements, impacted Palestinian farmlands (did it cut off settlement farmland?)

Increased restrictions on access to agricultural land behind the Barrier | United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory

In recent months, increased restrictions have been reported in the northern West Bank which are affecting the access of farmers to their agricultural land isolated by the Barrier. These restrictions relate to a minimum area of land and land ownership documents required before Palestinian...

www.ochaopt.org

Should they get compensation from Israel for their losses?

 

[Coyote]

You haven't read the ICJ Advisory Opinion of 20 July 2024? Israel's rights under international law are being eroded.

Do you have a link?

 

[Coyote]

It’s not “ethnic cleansing”, it’s war and the Gazans started it.

Ethnic cleansing is the forced removal of an unwanted ethnic group. That is occurring in northern Gaza. It is no longer “just” war.

 

[Shusha]

Why are they only allowed access to their land twice a week or in some cases twice a year?

Here is one specific example: (Anin)

Should they get compensation from Israel for their losses?

I would have to know more details on the history of the land and what they claim is "theirs", how long they have been cultivating it. As I said, Ottoman, Jordanian, and now Israeli land laws in Area C are complicated. There has been significant settlement expansion in that village, what was "lost"?

 

[Shusha]

Do you have a link?

https://ardd-jo.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/ICJ-Ruling-on-Advisory-Opinion.pdf

 

[abu afak]

For the Rcord there was NO reply from either of the posters addressed in my previous post on pg 10, who both felt strongly but seemed pretty ignorant on the topic.
Again:

The Israeli’s never really wanted land for peace, there was always a contingent unwilling to give up any of the land that was taken. They withdrew from Gaza because of the high economic and political costs incurred in maintaining a security presence for a few settlements.

Rigby5, etc

You guys know me from posting in Science/Sci-Tech, and Env/Climate, but THIS Topic is what brought me here and what I posted in near exclusively for Many Years after my joing USMB in 2006.

The Israelis Always wanted land for Peace until after 2005 when a majority swung against it after seeing what happened post 2005/Gaza-Giveback/Hamas election and attacks.

Israel was in favor of sharing the land and was FOR the 1947 (UN Res 181) partition plan. They declared statehood on that basis, but the Arabs did not agree and attacked hoping to wipe out Israel and the Jews in it. They lost and some land with it.

Between 1948 and 1967 when the Arabs controlled current 'p-p-p-palaestine' there was no move to make a state. Arabs didn't buy that shlt!
Jordan ANNEXED the West Bank and gave them all citizenship/passports.
Egypt ruled Gaza.
It was only after Losing the 1967 war that Hussein 'gave' it to the 'palestinians'/Arabs left over from the greater British Mandate in which millions became 'Jordanians'/the First 'Palestine.'

Further...
Israel offered back all the conquered 1967 land after that defensive if Preemptive war in exchange for mere recognition by the Arab states.
They refused with the famous "Three Nos" of the Khartoum Conference of August 1967. (google it)
Only thus "Occupation," if slowly.

“I think that this is the first war in history that on the morrow the victors sued for peace and the vanquished called for unconditional surrender.”
- Abba Eban

More, but a bit at a time.
`

 

[Lisa558]

Ethnic cleansing is the forced removal of an unwanted ethnic group. That is occurring in northern Gaza. It is no longer “just” war.

If Israel were guilty of ethnically cleansing Muslims, why are they allowing the 21% of their citizens who are Muslim to remain? And to vote? And to hold elected office?

No, the ethnic cleansing was done by the Muslims - to the Jews. That is why Arab countries that once had thriving and substantial Jewish communities are now essentially “Judenfree.”

 

[Ropey]

From river to sea from one side.

Ersatz Israel from the other.

Explain yourself. After saying that you need to explain your 'moderation'.

View attachment 1062411

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/from-the-river-to-the-sea-palestine-1.7033881

Are you the kind of moderator that USMB stands with? Are you helping the site to grow and donors to donate with that Jew hatred?

er·satz /ˈerˌsäts,ˈerˌzats/ adjective (of a product) made or used as a substitute, typically an inferior one, for something else. "ersatz coffee".

 

[Coyote]

If Israel were guilty of ethnically cleansing Muslims, why are they allowing the 21% of their citizens who are Muslim to remain? And to vote? And to hold elected office?

No, the ethnic cleansing was done by the Muslims - to the Jews. That is why Arab countries that once had thriving and substantial Jewish communities are now essentially “Judenfree.”

Let’s discuss this. I’m willing to lay out my argument and defend it and listen to yours as to why it is not.

FIRST however, you need to realize I’m talking about northern Gaza only. If you look at my statement you would see that rather than jumping to broader conclusions.

SECOND the argument that other countries ethnically cleansed Jews from their territories is a FAIL. You are making the argument that because other countries did, it is therefore ok. It isn’t regardless of who does it.

Ethnic Cleansing: the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportationor forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.
Let’s look at northern Gaza.

Why is the war continuing in Gaza when the military leadership has stated on more han one occasion that all that can be done militarily in Gaza has been done (I’m operating on the assumption they know what they are talking about).

Many multi-national organizations and NGO’s have reported that Israel is allowing in only a fraction of the aid needed. In the US, alarm over conditions in northern Gaza has been raised in the State Department on multiple occasions:

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www.reuters.com

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www.reuters.com

Multiple times during the course of the war, international concern has been raised about the conduct of the war violating international law and humanitarian principles to the point where the U.S. government, in danger of violating it’s own laws regarding the provision of weapons, was forced to finally put pressure on Israel by threatening to halt the shipment of weapons if these concerns weren’t addressed. It is particularly dire in northern Gaza. Israel reluctantly taken minimal steps to address it, steps that no one claims are anywhere near enough.

Currently all law and order has broken down in northern Gaza. There is no government, no police, and armed gangs terrorize the civilian population and violently loot any aid that does come in. And that raises a lot of pretty big questions in my mind.

Intentions. You cannot ignore statements made by those in power who have the ability to act on them.

Second, there is what Israel steadfastly has refused to address or definitively negate.

Israel is now at 15 months of war in Gaza. These are the reason’s I believe Israel’s intent is the ethnic cleansing of northern Gaza.

• There is no defined (or publically stated) plan for “the day after”.
• Israel’s political leadership has openly defied it’s military experts in regards to the necessity of a continued military offensive in Gaza.
• Israel, as the entity in control of northern Gaza, has not made any attempt to impose any kind of law and order or protect the civilian population from the lawlessness caused by the war’s widespread destruction.
• Plans and statements floated and endorsed by various political factions holding power have included making conditions so unlivable that Gazan’s will be forced to “voluntarily” leave.
• The so-called “General’s Plan”. Order all civilians to leave northern Gaza, label those who won’t or can’t label enemy combatants and impose a complete siege using starvation as a weapon to force people to leave.
• Refusal to openly state whether or not Gazan’s will be allowed to return home (thus far, almost none have).
• Destruction of infrastructure necessary for food production, water and power along with sharply restricting the amount of aid allowed in and eliminating UNWRA’s participation (with no plan to replace it and insufficient time to set up new distribution systems) additional pressure is put on the civilian population to leave.
• What satellite imagery appears to be showing is being done in northern Gaza combined with a refusal to state whether Gazan will be allowed to return is troubling.

 

[Ringo]

 

[teddyearp]

They don’t trust the Israelis and the Israelis don’t trust them. It is impasse. They are neither stupid nor evil.

The Palestinians are kept stupid in a sense by their evil leaders. With the billions of dollars of aid, Hamas as the governerning authority did not use the money to improve the strip that they control. Could have been a great seaside resort vacation destination for the whole world!

But they spent the money on missiles and war instead. Pretty simple to see the outcome of continuing on that path Coyote . You cannot deny it. And Muslims think that Judaism is a complete lie and such so. Here we are. They ain't never gonna get their country. Because they don't want it either. Facts jack.

 

[Coyote]

https://ardd-jo.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/ICJ-Ruling-on-Advisory-Opinion.pdf

Interesting - and both extreme and highly unrealistic. If it wants to go back in time for compensation and right of return it is ignoring the Jews who lost property or were displaced in the various wars. Extremely one sided and a non-solution.

 

[Coyote]

The Palestinians are kept stupid in a sense by their evil leaders. With the billions of dollars of aid, Hamas as the governerning authority did not use the money to improve the strip that they control. Could have been a great seaside resort vacation destination for the whole world!

But they spent the money on missiles and war instead. Pretty simple to see the outcome of continuing on that path Coyote . You cannot deny it. And Muslims think that Judaism is a complete lie and such so. Here we are. They ain't never gonna get their country. Because they don't want it either. Facts jack.

The distrust goes back much further than that and is merited on both sides.

Religion…they all think the other is fakery and the more religious, the stronger the opinion. I’m pretty down on religion at this point

 

[Shusha]

Ethnic Cleansing: the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportationor forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.

Starting with the obvious - Gaza had already been made ethnically homogeneous by the early 20th century. By that, I mean Gaza, which historically had a thriving Jewish population, was ethnically cleansed of all of her Jews. More than once, actually, in the last 100 years. I am at a loss as to how an already ethnically homogeneous geographical territory can be made MORE homogeneous.

Which leads me to conclude that you are using provocative language in order to incite or exaggerate or demonize.

With that out of the way, let's look at what you actually seem to be charging Israel with: forced displacement without humanitarian or military purpose and with specific intent for permanence.

My understanding of the situation (and I encourage correction with documentation) is that Northern Gaza is the location of Hamas' last remaining military capacity. And they are putting up a fierce fight there, making use of established military infrastructure.

There is a clear humanitarian purpose to evacuating areas of heavy fighting (or to permitting those who wish to leave).

There are also clear remaining military objectives, articulated since the beginning of the war, which have not been entirely resolved: dismantle Hamas, destroy all military infrastructure in Gaza, secure the return of the hostages.

These are the reason’s I believe Israel’s intent is the ethnic cleansing of northern Gaza.

• There is no defined (or publically stated) plan for “the day after”.

Forced displacement is a positive action - something that is done and done with specific intent. Israel can't be held accountable for imagined future actions or inaction. (And as a secondary question - why is Israel responsible for Gaza's "day after"? Seems we are continually told that it would be illegal to annex Gaza; illegal to occupy Gaza; illegal NOT to occupy Gaza; and illegal to renounce all claims to the territory of Gaza. Law sure seems to be twisted when - no matter what option Israel chooses - she will be vilified for it.)

• Israel’s political leadership has openly defied it’s military experts in regards to the necessity of a continued military offensive in Gaza.

Sure. There is internal governmental disagreement about the conditions necessary for concluding the war. This does not prove intent beyond military objectives.

• Israel, as the entity in control of northern Gaza, has not made any attempt to impose any kind of law and order or protect the civilian population from the lawlessness caused by the war’s widespread destruction.

Israel is fighting a war with Hamas in northern Gaza. It is in northern Gaza as a military force engaged in combat. The civilian population has been evacuated (as much as possible). Again, I'm not sure how this proves your claim.

• Plans and statements floated and endorsed by various political factions holding power have included making conditions so unlivable that Gazan’s will be forced to “voluntarily” leave.

I'd have to evaluate those on a case-by-case. I'm sure I will find many of them vile and unacceptable. But this does not indicate this is Israeli government policy.

• The so-called “General’s Plan”. Order all civilians to leave northern Gaza, label those who won’t or can’t label enemy combatants and impose a complete siege using starvation as a weapon to force people to leave.

Nope. Siege for the purpose of denying resources to enemy combatants. Separate the combatants from the civilians, then starve the combatants of supplies. (It may be that you disagree with this as a strategy.) This does not prove intent beyond military objectives.

• Refusal to openly state whether or not Gazan’s will be allowed to return home (thus far, almost none have).

Again, Israel can not be held responsible for imagined future actions.

• Destruction of infrastructure necessary for food production, water and power along

Reasonably expected outcomes of war of this intensity, especially considering Hamas' existing conditions, embedded military infrastructure, and methods of attack (As example, Hamas destroyed their power grid. Israel repaired it.) There is no evidence that Israel had intent for anything other than military objectives.

• with sharply restricting the amount of aid allowed in

We have a disagreement of facts here. Are you specifically speaking of northern Gaza here?

• and eliminating UNWRA’s participation (with no plan to replace it and insufficient time to set up new distribution systems) additional pressure is put on the civilian population to leave.

Gaza is not dependent on UNWRA for distribution of aid during the war. Elimination of cooperation with UNWRA is not equivalent at all with forced displacement.

• What satellite imagery appears to be showing is being done in northern Gaza combined with a refusal to state whether Gazan will be allowed to return is troubling.

Sure. But "troubling" is not equivalent to nor does it prove forced displacement. It just proves fierce military operations.

The concern I have with your post is that you imagine holes to exist and plug those holes with ill intent.

 

[Shusha]

Interesting - and both extreme and highly unrealistic. If it wants to go back in time for compensation and right of return it is ignoring the Jews who lost property or were displaced in the various wars. Extremely one sided and a non-solution.

Yes. Do you see how it also twists international law to Israel's detriment? And assumes certain things to be true without a legal process? I don't think that link had the details of the opinions. The dissenting opinions are always interesting.

 

[Lisa558]

Let’s discuss this. I’m willing to lay out my argument and defend it and listen to yours as to why it is not.

FIRST however, you need to realize I’m talking about northern Gaza only. If you look at my statement you would see that rather than jumping to broader conclusions.

SECOND the argument that other countries ethnically cleansed Jews from their territories is a FAIL. You are making the argument that because other countries did, it is therefore ok. It isn’t regardless of who does it.

Ethnic Cleansing: the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportationor forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.
Let’s look at northern Gaza.

Why is the war continuing in Gaza when the military leadership has stated on more han one occasion that all that can be done militarily in Gaza has been done (I’m operating on the assumption they know what they are talking about).

Many multi-national organizations and NGO’s have reported that Israel is allowing in only a fraction of the aid needed. In the US, alarm over conditions in northern Gaza has been raised in the State Department on multiple occasions:

Loading…

www.reuters.com

Loading…

www.reuters.com

Multiple times during the course of the war, international concern has been raised about the conduct of the war violating international law and humanitarian principles to the point where the U.S. government, in danger of violating it’s own laws regarding the provision of weapons, was forced to finally put pressure on Israel by threatening to halt the shipment of weapons if these concerns weren’t addressed. It is particularly dire in northern Gaza. Israel reluctantly taken minimal steps to address it, steps that no one claims are anywhere near enough.

Currently all law and order has broken down in northern Gaza. There is no government, no police, and armed gangs terrorize the civilian population and violently loot any aid that does come in. And that raises a lot of pretty big questions in my mind.

Intentions. You cannot ignore statements made by those in power who have the ability to act on them.

Second, there is what Israel steadfastly has refused to address or definitively negate.

Israel is now at 15 months of war in Gaza. These are the reason’s I believe Israel’s intent is the ethnic cleansing of northern Gaza.

• There is no defined (or publically stated) plan for “the day after”.
• Israel’s political leadership has openly defied it’s military experts in regards to the necessity of a continued military offensive in Gaza.
• Israel, as the entity in control of northern Gaza, has not made any attempt to impose any kind of law and order or protect the civilian population from the lawlessness caused by the war’s widespread destruction.
• Plans and statements floated and endorsed by various political factions holding power have included making conditions so unlivable that Gazan’s will be forced to “voluntarily” leave.
• The so-called “General’s Plan”. Order all civilians to leave northern Gaza, label those who won’t or can’t label enemy combatants and impose a complete siege using starvation as a weapon to force people to leave.
• Refusal to openly state whether or not Gazan’s will be allowed to return home (thus far, almost none have).
• Destruction of infrastructure necessary for food production, water and power along with sharply restricting the amount of aid allowed in and eliminating UNWRA’s participation (with no plan to replace it and insufficient time to set up new distribution systems) additional pressure is put on the civilian population to leave.
• What satellite imagery appears to be showing is being done in northern Gaza combined with a refusal to state whether Gazan will be allowed to return is troubling.

Your response is one-sided, aimed only against the Jews, when Arabs have done exactly what you condemn Jews for (and always excuse away as not being pertinent to the discussion).

1. WHY is it a “fail” - to use your word - when I bring up how Muslims have been ethnicall,y cleansing Jews from countries all over the Middle East - and when these Jews were of no threat to them? The Muslims, to the contrary, enthincally cleanse Jews out of hatred.

2. As far as “ethnically cleansing” the Muslims in northern Gaza, two points:

- this is where HAMAS’ stronghold remains. What you call “ethnically cleansing” is Isrsel’s attempt to limit civilian casualties as they go in full-strength to eradicate the Islamic savages.

- are you aware that the Muslims ethnically cleansed northern GAZA of Jews, the latter of whom lived there until 1929? And the Jews were no threat to the Arabs - the Arabs just wanted to make the region Judenfrei.

Your insistence on using terms like “ethnic cleansing” and “genocide-like” reveal an obvious bias against Jews, and in favor of Muslims. This is par for the course for liberals, and it is seen in the most disgusting ways on our (liberal) college campuses, who are being paid off by the Arabs to promote hatred of Israel and Jews.

 

[Lisa558]

Let’s discuss this. I’m willing to lay out my argument and defend it and listen to yours as to why it is not.

FIRST however, you need to realize I’m talking about northern Gaza only. If you look at my statement you would see that rather than jumping to broader conclusions.

SECOND the argument that other countries ethnically cleansed Jews from their territories is a FAIL. You are making the argument that because other countries did, it is therefore ok. It isn’t regardless of who does it.

Ethnic Cleansing: the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportationor forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.
Let’s look at northern Gaza.

Why is the war continuing in Gaza when the military leadership has stated on more han one occasion that all that can be done militarily in Gaza has been done (I’m operating on the assumption they know what they are talking about).

Many multi-national organizations and NGO’s have reported that Israel is allowing in only a fraction of the aid needed. In the US, alarm over conditions in northern Gaza has been raised in the State Department on multiple occasions:

Loading…

www.reuters.com

Loading…

www.reuters.com

Multiple times during the course of the war, international concern has been raised about the conduct of the war violating international law and humanitarian principles to the point where the U.S. government, in danger of violating it’s own laws regarding the provision of weapons, was forced to finally put pressure on Israel by threatening to halt the shipment of weapons if these concerns weren’t addressed. It is particularly dire in northern Gaza. Israel reluctantly taken minimal steps to address it, steps that no one claims are anywhere near enough.

Currently all law and order has broken down in northern Gaza. There is no government, no police, and armed gangs terrorize the civilian population and violently loot any aid that does come in. And that raises a lot of pretty big questions in my mind.

Intentions. You cannot ignore statements made by those in power who have the ability to act on them.

Second, there is what Israel steadfastly has refused to address or definitively negate.

Israel is now at 15 months of war in Gaza. These are the reason’s I believe Israel’s intent is the ethnic cleansing of northern Gaza.

• There is no defined (or publically stated) plan for “the day after”.
• Israel’s political leadership has openly defied it’s military experts in regards to the necessity of a continued military offensive in Gaza.
• Israel, as the entity in control of northern Gaza, has not made any attempt to impose any kind of law and order or protect the civilian population from the lawlessness caused by the war’s widespread destruction.
• Plans and statements floated and endorsed by various political factions holding power have included making conditions so unlivable that Gazan’s will be forced to “voluntarily” leave.
• The so-called “General’s Plan”. Order all civilians to leave northern Gaza, label those who won’t or can’t label enemy combatants and impose a complete siege using starvation as a weapon to force people to leave.
• Refusal to openly state whether or not Gazan’s will be allowed to return home (thus far, almost none have).
• Destruction of infrastructure necessary for food production, water and power along with sharply restricting the amount of aid allowed in and eliminating UNWRA’s participation (with no plan to replace it and insufficient time to set up new distribution systems) additional pressure is put on the civilian population to leave.
• What satellite imagery appears to be showing is being done in northern Gaza combined with a refusal to state whether Gazan will be allowed to return is troubling.

And P.S. Why are you putting the onus on Israel for all this? The HAMAS savages massacred 1200 innocent Jews, including children and babies, in a way SPECIFICALLY designed to inflict as much agony in their final moments, and, lest you forget….

THEY KIDNAPPED HUNDREDS OF HOSTAGES AND HAVE BEEN ABUSING AND STARVING THEM FOR 14 MONTHS! All HAMAS has to do is return the living hostages and the bodies of the dead, and surrender.

Hamas started this. They need to end it.

 

[Coyote]

Starting with the obvious - Gaza had already been made ethnically homogeneous by the early 20th century. By that, I mean Gaza, which historically had a thriving Jewish population, was ethnically cleansed of all of her Jews. More than once, actually, in the last 100 years. I am at a loss as to how an already ethnically homogeneous geographical territory can be made MORE homogeneous.

Which leads me to conclude that you are using provocative language in order to incite or exaggerate or demonize.

No. I am using it because in this case I think it is accurate, not to incite. We call terrorism terrorism, we call atrocities atrocities. We call the forced displacement of Arab Jews ethnic cleansing (is that to incite? Or demonize?) yet we stop short from even saying the word or discussing in this context.

Forced population transfers are part of ethnic cleansing. As is a stated intent to “thin the herd” of a certain ethnic group.

Perhaps it is not yet ethnic cleansing, that might depend on what Israel does next which it has yet to state. And it is all open for discussion.

With that out of the way, let's look at what you actually seem to be charging Israel with: forced displacement without humanitarian or military purpose and with specific intent for permanence.

My understanding of the situation (and I encourage correction with documentation) is that Northern Gaza is the location of Hamas' last remaining military capacity. And they are putting up a fierce fight there, making use of established military infrastructure.

There is a clear humanitarian purpose to evacuating areas of heavy fighting (or to permitting those who wish to leave).

There are also clear remaining military objectives, articulated since the beginning of the war, which have not been entirely resolved: dismantle Hamas, destroy all military infrastructure in Gaza, secure the return of the hostages.

Are there really? If so then why is that being repudiated by Israel’s own (now former) Defense Minister and military leadership who are saying Hamas is effectively dismantled at this point? How is the continuing military assault gaining the release of hostages who are dying for Netanyahu’s “total victory” as this stretches on?

https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/31/middleeast/israel-military-leaders-gaza-lebanon-intl/index.html

Shusha quote:
Forced displacement is a positive action - something that is done and done with specific intent. Israel can't be held accountable for imagined future actions or inaction. (And as a secondary question - why is Israel responsible for Gaza's "day after"? Seems we are continually told that it would be illegal to annex Gaza; illegal to occupy Gaza; illegal NOT to occupy Gaza; and illegal to renounce all claims to the territory of Gaza. Law sure seems to be twisted when - no matter what option Israel chooses - she will be vilified for it.)
(End Quote)

Forced displacement can be a positive action or a negative action or even a bit of both. Positive - civilians are moved to a presumably safer location. Negative - civilians are barred from returning at the end of the conflict.

If Israel refuses to lay out longer range plans for it’s next stage, it leaves itself open to criticism and a valid questions about intent particularly given it’s own history (barring the return of civilians who had fled or been forceably expelled during earlier wars. In terms of legality of annexing/occupying/renouncing…I think we can both agree that it is a mess unique to the area and its history. I think you are right, Israel is potentially damned whatever it does and is left to choose from a set of bad choices.

Sure. There is internal governmental disagreement about the conditions necessary for concluding the war. This does not prove intent beyond military objectives.

It doesn’t prove intent, but when taken along with the political situation both with Netanyahu’s personal political survival and the desires of his coalition for Gaza, it is not unreasonable to question intentions.

Israel is fighting a war with Hamas in northern Gaza. It is in northern Gaza as a military force engaged in combat. The civilian population has been evacuated (as much as possible). Again, I'm not sure how this proves your claim.

Armed gangs are operating with impunity in areas under IDF control in southern Gaza as well.

Shusha quote:
I'd have to evaluate those on a case-by-case. I'm sure I will find many of them vile and unacceptable. But this does not indicate this is Israeli government policy. (End Shusha quote)

Netanyahu has not explicitly rejected “The General’s Plan” nor has he explicitly rejected the plan put supported by ministers Ben-Gvir and Smotrich


Shusha quote:
Nope. Siege for the purpose of denying resources to enemy combatants. Separate the combatants from the civilians, then starve the combatants of supplies. (It may be that you disagree with this as a strategy.) This does not prove intent beyond military objectives.

Again, Israel can not be held responsible for imagined future actions.

Reasonably expected outcomes of war of this intensity, especially considering Hamas' existing conditions, embedded military infrastructure, and methods of attack (As example, Hamas destroyed their power grid. Israel repaired it.) There is no evidence that Israel had intent for anything other than military objectives.

Destruction of crops, farmland and cattle are military objectives?

We have a disagreement of facts here. Are you specifically speaking of northern Gaza here?

Yes.

Gaza is not dependent on UNWRA for distribution of aid during the war. Elimination of cooperation with UNWRA is not equivalent at all with forced displacement.

If elimination of UNWRA causes a sharp reduction in the ability to distribute aid (and has according to the groups attempting to fill in), then that worsens an already dire situation, forcing people to leave.

Sure. But "troubling" is not equivalent to nor does it prove forced displacement. It just proves fierce military operations.

It doesn’t prove fierce military operations any more than forced displacement.

The concern I have with your post is that you imagine holes to exist and plug those holes with ill intent.

When those in positions of political and military power make statements of intent or support specific positions that the PM doesn’t disavow, it is difficult not to view actions in absence of ill intent.

 

[Coyote]

Your response is one-sided, aimed only against the Jews, when Arabs have done exactly what you condemn Jews for (and always excuse away as not being pertinent to the discussion).

Umh…you do realize, right, that your own responses are also one-sided?

It sounds like you are using what happened historically as an excuse to justify doing the same today. Are you?

1. WHY is it a “fail” - to use your word - when I bring up how Muslims have been ethnicall,y cleansing Jews from countries all over the Middle East - and when these Jews were of no threat to them? The Muslims, to the contrary, enthincally cleanse Jews out of hatred.

It’s a fail because you are justifying doing something terrible to people today because other people back then did something terrible.

Lisa quote:
2. As far as “ethnically cleansing” the Muslims in northern Gaza, two points:

- this is where HAMAS’ stronghold remains. What you call “ethnically cleansing” is Isrsel’s attempt to limit civilian casualties as they go in full-strength to eradicate the Islamic savages.

- are you aware that the Muslims ethnically cleansed northern GAZA of Jews, the latter of whom lived there until 1929? And the Jews were no threat to the Arabs - the Arabs just wanted to make the region Judenfrei.

Are you attempting to justify ethnic cleansing?

Your insistence on using terms like “ethnic cleansing” and “genocide-like” reveal an obvious bias against Jews, and in favor of Muslims. This is par for the course for liberals, and it is seen in the most disgusting ways on our (liberal) college campuses, who are being paid off by the Arabs to promote hatred of Israel and Jews.

I don’t think I used the term “genocide-like”.

Your own bias and hatred is pretty clear here.

 

[Coyote]

Yes. Do you see how it also twists international law to Israel's detriment? And assumes certain things to be true without a legal process? I don't think that link had the details of the opinions. The dissenting opinions are always interesting.

Yes, I do, in fact it sounded so extreme I was kind of shocked to read it.