Is it possible for atheism to ever be anything more than critical theory?

[ding]

No. I stand by that. That is the logical consequence of materialism.

Great- then we are back to my previous challenge

Do you really believe that people who don't have religion can't have moral values? Because that is what you said.

Prove that I have no concept of right or wrong since I don't believe in any fairy tales.

Prove your position.

This can be an interesting debate- and if you would prefer we can start a new thread devoted exclusively to that topic- "Can athiests have a concept of right or wrong- and related- do those who have faith in a religion have superior concepts of what is right or wrong?

No. They can have moral values. They don’t believe moral values are absolute. So they can be anything a society decides.

Okay- so you have retracted your claim that atheists cannot have moral values.

But we are still left with your claim that I have no concept of right or wrong.

Prove that I have no concept of right or wrong since I don't believe in any fairy tales.

Prove your position.

Not exactly. I clarified it. I am assuming you read my signature on socialism and took it out of context. There are several sentences which must be read together to understand the context. I have no doubt you have morals. We may even agree on many of them. But I believe your morals tend to be relativistic.

Your moral relativism has nothing to do with not believing in my “fairy tales” as you so rudely put it. There are Christians who practice moral relativity. Just as there are atheists who believe in absolute morals.

Try to separate my signature line from this OP. This OP is limited to the fact that atheists cannot make an affirmative case for atheism because it is not possible to prove a negative. Which is why we see atheists in the religion forum criticizing the religions of others. It’s the only way they can validate their beliefs.

While I did read your signature and find it amusing, I have not based any of my responses on your signature.

Tell me more about my 'moral relativism' versus your moral absolutism'- give me concrete examples.

More specifically- prove what you claimed about me- prove that I have no concept of right or wrong. Do you want me to go back to your original quote?

I have already explained it in great detail. I don’t believe there is any argument you would accept.

 

[ding]

Your belief in the negative?

How exactly have I disrespected them? Have I called you any names? Have I said you were stupid for not believing in God? All I have done is question you?

Have you not claimed my stated beliefs are a lie? You have said I am not an atheist. Despite my statements to the contrary, you have proclaimed me a materialist. And you have repeatedly called me confused.

Had Syriusly said those things of you, you would certainly have made the accusation of subordination.

I said it is not logically possible to be an atheist and believe in a lifeforce. You took that to mean I called you a liar. I did not call you a liar. I disagreed with your belief that you can be an atheist and believe in a life force. Especially since you believe this lifeforce did not come from the material world.

I believe you are confused. When I asked what this lifeforce was and how you knew you had it you said you did not know but you knew you had it and you knew it did not originate from the material world. Which means you literally accepted it on faith. You accepted on faith something that was not from the material world. This is why I said your beliefs are not consistent with atheism and that you were confused.

I do not formulate my beliefs based on what others think. I do it based on my own life, experiences and my own study.

There is nothing inconsistent with my beliefs. I believe that there are incorporeal things that did not originate from the corporeal. I do not refer to them as a lifeforce or spirit. I have no reason to believe that those force are sentient or eternal. None of that is inconsistent with not believing in a god.

I believe those beliefs are inconsistent with atheism. You are just calling it by another name but what you are describing is a spirit.

And yes there absolutely is a logical reason to believe they are eternal; they did not come from the material world. And if they are not sentient then how can you sense them at all.

As I have said, I believe "spirit" means a sentient being.

My being able to sense them has absolutely nothing to do with them being sentient.

The fact that you say my beliefs are inconsistent with atheism is because you choose to use your own definition for the word. I use the definition from the two most comprehensive and widely accepted dictionaries for the English language.

Then what are the attributes of the incorporeal that did not originate from the corporeal and how do you know it is not sentient?

 

[ding]

The fact that you can’t explain it and still believe it is a sign of faith.

The fact that you deny your materialism and believe that love is not spirit confirms your materialism. The odd thing is that you believe in a lifeforce but you are consistent in your inability to know what it is or how you know it. Apparently you take that on faith too.

But most telling is your firm belief that there is a universal code of common decency that you believe everyone knows and should follow.

I do not need faith to believe something I have experienced exists. The fact that I do not attempt to explain its properties or origins does not change that. You seem to think that, because I have experienced it, I should know all its properties and origins. Obviously a foolish supposition.

My belief that civil behavior among people should be expected has no relevancy to the topic.

It wasn’t that you didn’t attempt to explain its properties and origin. You admitted that you didn’t know what it was or how you knew you had a lifeforce and you knew the lifeforce did not originate from the material world. This is literally a textbook example of faith. More specifically, religious faith.

It isn’t your expectation of civility. It is your expectation of fairness. This expectation is universal. Everyone has it. You never hear someone arguing about something say, “the hell with your invisible law of fairness.” No. You hear arguments which appeal to universal fairness. We all expect everyone to understand this invisible code of common decency and fairness. We didn’t put it in us and we can’t get rid of it. This ought to arouse suspicion.

No, it is not a religious faith at all. I also did not say I knew anything of the kind. I said I believe. If you claim to KNOW, you are lying.

That the essence of faith.

It is belief. No religious implication at all.

It is faith.

 

[WinterBorn]

Have you not claimed my stated beliefs are a lie? You have said I am not an atheist. Despite my statements to the contrary, you have proclaimed me a materialist. And you have repeatedly called me confused.

Had Syriusly said those things of you, you would certainly have made the accusation of subordination.

I said it is not logically possible to be an atheist and believe in a lifeforce. You took that to mean I called you a liar. I did not call you a liar. I disagreed with your belief that you can be an atheist and believe in a life force. Especially since you believe this lifeforce did not come from the material world.

I believe you are confused. When I asked what this lifeforce was and how you knew you had it you said you did not know but you knew you had it and you knew it did not originate from the material world. Which means you literally accepted it on faith. You accepted on faith something that was not from the material world. This is why I said your beliefs are not consistent with atheism and that you were confused.

I do not formulate my beliefs based on what others think. I do it based on my own life, experiences and my own study.

There is nothing inconsistent with my beliefs. I believe that there are incorporeal things that did not originate from the corporeal. I do not refer to them as a lifeforce or spirit. I have no reason to believe that those force are sentient or eternal. None of that is inconsistent with not believing in a god.

I believe those beliefs are inconsistent with atheism. You are just calling it by another name but what you are describing is a spirit.

And yes there absolutely is a logical reason to believe they are eternal; they did not come from the material world. And if they are not sentient then how can you sense them at all.

As I have said, I believe "spirit" means a sentient being.

My being able to sense them has absolutely nothing to do with them being sentient.

The fact that you say my beliefs are inconsistent with atheism is because you choose to use your own definition for the word. I use the definition from the two most comprehensive and widely accepted dictionaries for the English language.

Then what are the attributes of the incorporeal that did not originate from the corporeal and how do you know it is not sentient?

No evidence it is sentient. And it is what I believe.

 

[WinterBorn]

I do not need faith to believe something I have experienced exists. The fact that I do not attempt to explain its properties or origins does not change that. You seem to think that, because I have experienced it, I should know all its properties and origins. Obviously a foolish supposition.

My belief that civil behavior among people should be expected has no relevancy to the topic.

It wasn’t that you didn’t attempt to explain its properties and origin. You admitted that you didn’t know what it was or how you knew you had a lifeforce and you knew the lifeforce did not originate from the material world. This is literally a textbook example of faith. More specifically, religious faith.

It isn’t your expectation of civility. It is your expectation of fairness. This expectation is universal. Everyone has it. You never hear someone arguing about something say, “the hell with your invisible law of fairness.” No. You hear arguments which appeal to universal fairness. We all expect everyone to understand this invisible code of common decency and fairness. We didn’t put it in us and we can’t get rid of it. This ought to arouse suspicion.

No, it is not a religious faith at all. I also did not say I knew anything of the kind. I said I believe. If you claim to KNOW, you are lying.

That the essence of faith.

It is belief. No religious implication at all.

It is faith.

You say faith and I say belief.

Since we are talking about what I believe, who would know better?

 

[ding]

I said it is not logically possible to be an atheist and believe in a lifeforce. You took that to mean I called you a liar. I did not call you a liar. I disagreed with your belief that you can be an atheist and believe in a life force. Especially since you believe this lifeforce did not come from the material world.

I believe you are confused. When I asked what this lifeforce was and how you knew you had it you said you did not know but you knew you had it and you knew it did not originate from the material world. Which means you literally accepted it on faith. You accepted on faith something that was not from the material world. This is why I said your beliefs are not consistent with atheism and that you were confused.

I do not formulate my beliefs based on what others think. I do it based on my own life, experiences and my own study.

There is nothing inconsistent with my beliefs. I believe that there are incorporeal things that did not originate from the corporeal. I do not refer to them as a lifeforce or spirit. I have no reason to believe that those force are sentient or eternal. None of that is inconsistent with not believing in a god.

I believe those beliefs are inconsistent with atheism. You are just calling it by another name but what you are describing is a spirit.

And yes there absolutely is a logical reason to believe they are eternal; they did not come from the material world. And if they are not sentient then how can you sense them at all.

As I have said, I believe "spirit" means a sentient being.

My being able to sense them has absolutely nothing to do with them being sentient.

The fact that you say my beliefs are inconsistent with atheism is because you choose to use your own definition for the word. I use the definition from the two most comprehensive and widely accepted dictionaries for the English language.

Then what are the attributes of the incorporeal that did not originate from the corporeal and how do you know it is not sentient?

No evidence it is sentient. And it is what I believe.

Then there is no evidence that it’s not. Why did you choose one over the other?

 

[ding]

It wasn’t that you didn’t attempt to explain its properties and origin. You admitted that you didn’t know what it was or how you knew you had a lifeforce and you knew the lifeforce did not originate from the material world. This is literally a textbook example of faith. More specifically, religious faith.

It isn’t your expectation of civility. It is your expectation of fairness. This expectation is universal. Everyone has it. You never hear someone arguing about something say, “the hell with your invisible law of fairness.” No. You hear arguments which appeal to universal fairness. We all expect everyone to understand this invisible code of common decency and fairness. We didn’t put it in us and we can’t get rid of it. This ought to arouse suspicion.

No, it is not a religious faith at all. I also did not say I knew anything of the kind. I said I believe. If you claim to KNOW, you are lying.

That the essence of faith.

It is belief. No religious implication at all.

It is faith.

You say faith and I say belief.

Since we are talking about what I believe, who would know better?

If you say so but you literally chose one over the other without any evidence for it.

 

[WinterBorn]

I do not formulate my beliefs based on what others think. I do it based on my own life, experiences and my own study.

There is nothing inconsistent with my beliefs. I believe that there are incorporeal things that did not originate from the corporeal. I do not refer to them as a lifeforce or spirit. I have no reason to believe that those force are sentient or eternal. None of that is inconsistent with not believing in a god.

I believe those beliefs are inconsistent with atheism. You are just calling it by another name but what you are describing is a spirit.

And yes there absolutely is a logical reason to believe they are eternal; they did not come from the material world. And if they are not sentient then how can you sense them at all.

As I have said, I believe "spirit" means a sentient being.

My being able to sense them has absolutely nothing to do with them being sentient.

The fact that you say my beliefs are inconsistent with atheism is because you choose to use your own definition for the word. I use the definition from the two most comprehensive and widely accepted dictionaries for the English language.

Then what are the attributes of the incorporeal that did not originate from the corporeal and how do you know it is not sentient?

No evidence it is sentient. And it is what I believe.

The there is no evidence that it’s not. Why did you chose one over the other?

I do not assume sentience unless there is some evidence. There is no evidence that the moon is not sentient either, but I don't assume it is until proven differnt.

 

[WinterBorn]

No, it is not a religious faith at all. I also did not say I knew anything of the kind. I said I believe. If you claim to KNOW, you are lying.

That the essence of faith.

It is belief. No religious implication at all.

It is faith.

You say faith and I say belief.

Since we are talking about what I believe, who would know better?

If you say so but you literally chose one over the other without any evidence for it.

Since I do not believe in a god, I will always choose the nonreligious word. Without any empirical evidence to the contrary, "belief" is the word that fits for me.

 

[ding]

I believe those beliefs are inconsistent with atheism. You are just calling it by another name but what you are describing is a spirit.

And yes there absolutely is a logical reason to believe they are eternal; they did not come from the material world. And if they are not sentient then how can you sense them at all.

As I have said, I believe "spirit" means a sentient being.

My being able to sense them has absolutely nothing to do with them being sentient.

The fact that you say my beliefs are inconsistent with atheism is because you choose to use your own definition for the word. I use the definition from the two most comprehensive and widely accepted dictionaries for the English language.

Then what are the attributes of the incorporeal that did not originate from the corporeal and how do you know it is not sentient?

No evidence it is sentient. And it is what I believe.

The there is no evidence that it’s not. Why did you chose one over the other?

I do not assume sentience unless there is some evidence. There is no evidence that the moon is not sentient either, but I don't assume it is until proven differnt.

But you are talking about the incorporeal.

Your analogy was to something corporeal.

Can you make an analogy to the incorporeal that you know about?

 

[ding]

That the essence of faith.

It is belief. No religious implication at all.

It is faith.

You say faith and I say belief.

Since we are talking about what I believe, who would know better?

If you say so but you literally chose one over the other without any evidence for it.

Since I do not believe in a god, I will always choose the nonreligious word. Without any empirical evidence to the contrary, "belief" is the word that fits for me.

Is there anything you have faith in?

 

[WinterBorn]

As I have said, I believe "spirit" means a sentient being.

My being able to sense them has absolutely nothing to do with them being sentient.

The fact that you say my beliefs are inconsistent with atheism is because you choose to use your own definition for the word. I use the definition from the two most comprehensive and widely accepted dictionaries for the English language.

Then what are the attributes of the incorporeal that did not originate from the corporeal and how do you know it is not sentient?

No evidence it is sentient. And it is what I believe.

The there is no evidence that it’s not. Why did you chose one over the other?

I do not assume sentience unless there is some evidence. There is no evidence that the moon is not sentient either, but I don't assume it is until proven differnt.

But you are talking about the incorporeal.

Your analogy was to something corporeal.

Can you make an analogy to the incorporeal that you know about?

LOL! Something incorporeal that I know about? What is there that is incorporeal that we know about?

 

[ding]

Then what are the attributes of the incorporeal that did not originate from the corporeal and how do you know it is not sentient?

No evidence it is sentient. And it is what I believe.

The there is no evidence that it’s not. Why did you chose one over the other?

I do not assume sentience unless there is some evidence. There is no evidence that the moon is not sentient either, but I don't assume it is until proven differnt.

But you are talking about the incorporeal.

Your analogy was to something corporeal.

Can you make an analogy to the incorporeal that you know about?

LOL! Something incorporeal that I know about? What is there that is incorporeal that we know about?

Love, thoughts, music, etc.

 

[WinterBorn]

It is belief. No religious implication at all.

It is faith.

You say faith and I say belief.

Since we are talking about what I believe, who would know better?

If you say so but you literally chose one over the other without any evidence for it.

Since I do not believe in a god, I will always choose the nonreligious word. Without any empirical evidence to the contrary, "belief" is the word that fits for me.

Is there anything you have faith in?

There are corporeal things that I have faith in (as long as you leave the religious connotations out). I have faith in the laws of physics. I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I have faith that my children love me. I have faith in plenty of things. As long as you accept the use of the word in a nonreligious context.

 

[WinterBorn]

No evidence it is sentient. And it is what I believe.

The there is no evidence that it’s not. Why did you chose one over the other?

I do not assume sentience unless there is some evidence. There is no evidence that the moon is not sentient either, but I don't assume it is until proven differnt.

But you are talking about the incorporeal.

Your analogy was to something corporeal.

Can you make an analogy to the incorporeal that you know about?

LOL! Something incorporeal that I know about? What is there that is incorporeal that we know about?

Love, thoughts etc.

Can you prove anything about them that does not originate in the corporeal?

 

[ding]

The there is no evidence that it’s not. Why did you chose one over the other?

I do not assume sentience unless there is some evidence. There is no evidence that the moon is not sentient either, but I don't assume it is until proven differnt.

But you are talking about the incorporeal.

Your analogy was to something corporeal.

Can you make an analogy to the incorporeal that you know about?

LOL! Something incorporeal that I know about? What is there that is incorporeal that we know about?

Love, thoughts etc.

Can you prove anything about them that does not originate in the corporeal?

Why? The moon doesn’t originate in the incorporeal and actually is corporeal and you were more than happy to use that as an analogy.

 

[ding]

But yes, I believe love and music, among others things, originate from the soul. I believe that the electrochemical reactions in the brain are the body’s response or processing of those feelings.

 

[ding]

Our soul is our complete being. It is the essence of who we are. The body is just a physical manifestation of that.

 

[WinterBorn]

But yes, I believe love and music, among others things, originate from the soul. I believe that the electrochemical reactions in the brain are the body’s response or processing of those feelings.

You believe that. But you have no proof.

 

[ding]

But yes, I believe love and music, among others things, originate from the soul. I believe that the electrochemical reactions in the brain are the body’s response or processing of those feelings.

You believe that. But you have no proof.

Sure I do. I just don’t have any proof that you will accept.