Is it moral to let innocent people die rather than harmlessly waterboard 3 terrorist killers....

[dblack]

My concern isn't with terrorists being tortured, but with unconvicted (potentially innocent) suspects being tortured. Sacrificing due process has been the greatest cost associated with Gitmo and the whole "unlawful combatants" nonsense.

But there is "due" process....they aren't just grabbed up and shipped to gitmo...there is an interrogation and interview process on the guys sent there...and from the number of these guys who have been released and gone back to killing people, the process is pretty accurate...

It's a limited form of process, with no public scrutiny or oversight. If we have good reason to believe these people are terrorists, try them and convict them and torture them to death if that's your pleasure. But until then, they are potentially innocent and should be treated as such.

 

[2aguy]

It's a limited form of process, with no public scrutiny or oversight.

Sorry, that is innaccurate...there is congressional oversight and review of the status of these guys....and how do you try them? The libs want civilian trials with civilian rules of evidence....for people captured in foreign countries on a battlefield....that model just does not work and they would have to automatically be set free because of the rules of evidence....and captured unlawful combatants are not entitled to being "potentially" innocent....

 

[WinterBorn]

Two, 183 simulated drownings over several torture periods is not harmless.

Do you even know what that means...no, because you just spouted libtard propaganda....what is the simulated drowning...the CIA was allowed to only pour water onto the cloth for so many seconds...and ksm knew it and counted the seconds off on his hands as they did it....then they had to stop, let him up and have the doctor check him...and they were only allowed to pour the water so many times a day.....each pour is what the liars in the media count as the 183 times....they don't dunk the guy, they dribble water on him....

He was in no physical danger, they poured water on a cloth, the water filled his sinus cavities and dribbled down his throat...that is the "impression of drowning" that water boarding is...it is completely harmless, does not maim or kill....and they are not harmed in any way....

Do you want to know what it sort of feels like....if you have allergies you know...because you may be using a sinus rinse bottle....it is like that....

Waterboarding is like using a sinus rinse bottle?? Did you actually just say that? Funny thing is, there have been Navy SEALs who agree that it is torture. And they are as badass as it gets. Sinus rinse bottle? Dude, please.

 

[dblack]

...and captured unlawful combatants are not entitled to being "potentially" innocent....

And this is where the whole conceit of the "War on Terror" enters the picture. In such a context the 'battlefield' is everywhere, and the set of potential 'unlawful combatants' are all of us. What you're saying here is that we must all sacrifice our Constitutional rights for the duration of a war that will never end. I'm not willing to do that.

 

[2aguy]

And this is where the whole conceit of the "War on Terror" enters the picture. In such a context the 'battlefield' is everywhere, and the set of potential 'unlawful combatants' are all of us. What you're saying here is that we must all sacrifice our Constitutional rights for the duration of a war that will never end. I'm not willing to do that.

No, you are wrong....if you are captured on American soil committing acts of terror...you go into our criminal justice system...with all the rights under the Constitution...since the rules of evidence and arrest can apply....

If you are captured in a foreign battlefield, by U.S. military personnel then you are either an actual POW if you fight in uniform for a nation state...and are covered by the rules of war and the Geneva Conventions...or you are an unlawful enemy combatant....and are outside of those laws...and subject to enhanced interrogation techniques by non military personnel....so there are safe guards for innocent people....but the libs lie about that too...

 

[2aguy]

Waterboarding is like using a sinus rinse bottle?? Did you actually just say that? Funny thing is, there have been Navy SEALs who agree that it is torture. And they are as badass as it gets. Sinus rinse bottle? Dude, please.

Yeah, that is exactly what it does...as well as dribble water down the throat, and because you are tilted back the little bit of water can't drown you....the difference is you aren't tilted backwards when you use a sinus rinse bottle, and you are in control when you use the sinus rinse.....

they don't dunk these guys under water, the don't submerge their heads....

What did you think water boarding does....?

 

[WinterBorn]

Waterboarding is like using a sinus rinse bottle?? Did you actually just say that? Funny thing is, there have been Navy SEALs who agree that it is torture. And they are as badass as it gets. Sinus rinse bottle? Dude, please.

Yeah, that is exactly what it does...as well as dribble water down the throat, and because you are tilted back the little bit of water can't drown you....the difference is you aren't tilted backwards when you use a sinus rinse bottle, and you are in control when you use the sinus rinse.....

they don't dunk these guys under water, the don't submerge their heads....

What did you think water boarding does....?

I think when a SEAL calls it torture it is torture. You comparing it to using a sinus rinse bottle is laughable.

 

[dblack]

And this is where the whole conceit of the "War on Terror" enters the picture. In such a context the 'battlefield' is everywhere, and the set of potential 'unlawful combatants' are all of us. What you're saying here is that we must all sacrifice our Constitutional rights for the duration of a war that will never end. I'm not willing to do that.

No, you are wrong....if you are captured on American soil committing acts of terror...you go into our criminal justice system...with all the rights under the Constitution...since the rules of evidence and arrest can apply....

If you are captured in a foreign battlefield, by U.S. military personnel then you are either an actual POW if you fight in uniform for a nation state...and are covered by the rules of war and the Geneva Conventions...or you are an unlawful enemy combatant....and are outside of those laws...and subject to enhanced interrogation techniques by non military personnel....so there are safe guards for innocent people....but the libs lie about that too...

And by 'foreign battlefield', you mean anywhere outside American soil, right? Again, this is far too expansive to be meaningful. The 'unlawful combatants' loophole is a sham, a bit of creative lawyering that should be struck down by the Court. It makes a mockery of human rights and undermines our credibility as a force for justice in the world.

 

[Katzndogz]

The left believes that yes, it is moral to let thousands of innocent people die rather than make one terrorist the least big uncomfortable. This is the standard of nobility, we are so much better than to take uncomfortable means to save lives. Let them die and we stand on the moral hill.

 

[2aguy]

The 'unlawful combatants'

You know that is an actual term in the Geneva Conventions....right?

 

[2aguy]

I think when a SEAL calls it torture it is torture. You comparing it to using a sinus rinse bottle is laughable.

Well, I think that when 4 out of 5 former Vietnam War POWs say it isn't torture...2 of them Medal of Honor awardees, and the other one the guy who blinked in morse code with his eyes...TORTURE....who actually had all been tortured by the communists know what torture is and isn't...and they all 4 say it is harsh treatment but not torture...with all due respect to your navy Seal....these guys experienced real torture...not military SERE training water boarding....

I will take their word...and I have the utmost respect for our SEALs....I hope they kill a lot of these monsters....

Again Winterborn....how do you think water boarding actually works?

The 4 former POWs who were actually tortured...and support water boarding....

Another Vietnam POW for waterboarding AEI

Ellis is not alone among Vietnam POWs in supporting the enhanced interrogation techniques used on KSM and other terrorists after 9/11. While the media has focused on John McCain’s opposition to the practice, the fact is many of his former comrades from the Hanoi Hilton disagree vehemently with him. In my book, Courting Disaster, I interview many of them — including Col. Bud Day, who received our nation’s highest award for valor, the Medal of Honor, for his heroic escape from a North Vietnamese prison camp; Col. Leo Thorsness was awarded the Medal of Honor for extraordinary heroism during the Vietnam War;

and Adm. Jeremiah Denton, the POW who famously winked the word “T-O-R-T-U-R-E” in Morse code during a North Vietnamese propaganda interview — the first message to the outside world that American prisoners were being tortured.

These real torture victims know torture when they see it — and they say waterboarding is not torture. Now another of their comrades has come forward to add his voice to theirs in support of our courageous CIA interrogators.

Winterborn...do you think these guys don't know what torture is?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"Is it moral to let innocent people die rather than harmlessly waterboard 3 terrorist killers...."

This fails as a false dilemma fallacy.

And that you and others on the right would advocate for the use of torture comes as no surprise.

 

[2aguy]

This fails as a false dilemma fallacy.

How is this not true....there are actual terrorists actually killing innocent people and planning on killing innocent people....this isn't a movie it is real...you are the delusional ones.....

 

[dblack]

The left believes that yes, it is moral to let thousands of innocent people die rather than make one terrorist the least big uncomfortable. This is the standard of nobility, we are so much better than to take uncomfortable means to save lives. Let them die and we stand on the moral hill.

Horseshit. It's not terrorists we're defending. It's people suspected of terrorism. Which could be anybody. It could be you. Don't you get that? If someone cooked up phony evidence against you, under the right circumstances (not on American soil, etc ...) you could be sucked into Guantanamo and lose your Constitutional rights to due process, and tortured. That's not a precedent we want to hold onto, and the sooner we undo it the better.

 

[whitehall]

More people died from drowning in a congressman's car than the whole waterboarding episode. Perception is the key.