Zone1 Is a conceptual idol as dangerous as a graven idol?

[HaShev]

The art figures I mention are not gods nor do I see them as such. I enjoy them as art, not objects of worship. Let's use some common sense here as to what the intent of the scriptures is. We are not to turn to graven images as objects of worship. I don't do that. Figurines representing religious or political figures to be revered, they are not.

No, I agree with you on the mere art objects when not venerated nor representing specific figures or myths, I myself have a Wedding Outfitted Geisha Statue in a Lucite Display Case and have pondered over this subject and came to the same conclusion you did.
I only stated that the Jesus image is in fact an idol and this venerating of bodies and places is a subject that is debated in the NT book of Jude 1:9 which came from earlier script in the Moses Apocrypha, whereby Moses body where it rests is not revealed for sake of preventing veneration of his grave site.
This also could be to prevent anthropromorphizing a lore- legend figure venerating the figure of legend instead of focus on the lesson in that legend and what that figure represents.

 

[Foxfyre]

No, I agree with you on the mere art objects when not venerated nor representing specific figures or myths, I myself have a Wedding Outfitted Geisha Statue in a Lucite Display Case and have pondered over this subject and came to the same conclusion you did.
I only stated that the Jesus image is in fact an idol and this venerating of bodies and places is a subject that is debated in the NT book of Jude 1:9 which came from earlier script in the Moses Apocrypha, whereby Moses body where it rests is not revealed for sake of preventing veneration of his grave site.
This also could be to prevent anthropromorphizing a lore- legend figure venerating the figure of legend instead of focus on the lesson in that legend and what that figure represents.

A symbol of Jesus is a symbol of a person who lived, breathed, walked on this Earth. You do not worship the symbol. You worship the person. I see no harm in artistic depictions or reminders of who and what He was to help us focus on prayer or worship.

Nobody worships Moses but he is held up as an important father of the faith. I can find no sin in artistic renditions depicting him.

To venerate those who have lived in poetry, in art, in music is a natural and harmless activity. To create a God and worship Him or Her or it is what is forbidden in the Bible.

 

[HaShev]

A symbol of Jesus is a symbol of a person who lived, breathed, walked on this Earth. You do not worship the symbol. You worship the person. I see no harm in artistic depictions or reminders of who and what He was to help us focus on prayer or worship.

Nobody worships Moses but he is held up as an important father of the faith. I can find no sin in artistic renditions depicting him.

To venerate those who have lived in poetry, in art, in music is a natural and harmless activity. To create a God and worship Him or Her or it is what is forbidden in the Bible.

No that is not historically honest.
These are the only HISTORICAL Christ figures:
The many Christs -
Yeshu son of Mary 100bc (used as a portion of the Jesus account, hanged on a tree and stoned on passover as the NT accounts not crucified on a cross that later figures suffered-note the Widows mite story in the NT is a Jannaeus era coin not a Herod era-he fled towards Egypt to avoid the Jannaeus persecution of Pharisee and came back a forbidden maggis scam artist liken to Benny Hinn type)
Yehuda ben Tabbai 100bc often confused with Yeshu, his speach about feeling guilty & sorry for causing someone punishment was used in the Judas story, but no indication it was about Yeshu's prosecution.
In that 85-100bc era Shimon was
Re- established as the High priest by Jannaeus' wife Salome (a friend and follower of Yeshu) so it's possible this Shimon being re-assigned high priest was behind the Shimon-Peter story.
And This Salome mixed and combined with an ad era Salome. In fact many figures seem converged with same or similar named figures of later christs figures either as a purposeful convergence or the result of passing stories down the line.

The following are the only messianic figures in the time of Lysanias(died 35bc) and King Herod(4bc).
Yehuda (Judas) son of Hezekiah (4 BCE)
Simon of Peraea (4 BCE)
Athronges, the shepherd (4 BCE)
Yehuda (Judas) the Galilean (6 CE) tax revolter (used as a portion of the Jesus myth hence why he talks about taxes to Rome in Mark & why Lysanias died 35bc- and King Herod 4bc are in his accounts)
The only Ad era at that time of Pilate was Theudas by the Jordan (used as a portion of the Jesus myth who stole John the Baptists flock)
Benjamin the Egyptian was a christ figure but I don't recall his era.
Later in 70 ad of course was BARACOPA who had a large following until he failed his liberation to.

None of these Christs are Singularly Historically Jesus, hence Jesus is the new name for the TRINITY of Christs used for his story. And as any converged character, he has 2 professions (caepenter and fisherman)
2homwtowns (Capernaum and Nazareth which did not exist until 90ad)
2ages upon death(33, & closer to 50 says John) 2persecution methods and blames (slew & hanged & Crucifixion)
Lysan8as died in 35bc so how could Jesus lived in Pilates era? Other conflicting era provlems in the acct like the widows mite coin I pointed out etc etc. So Jesus isn't a singular acct, he's a created image of a man people made figures of and worshiped as idol god.
That'scplain and simple right there as to why Jesus itself is an idol.
Hence Isaiah 44 and warning in
Ezekiel 28 about the created image being made perfect(sinless) and called the anointed (Christ) Cherub (guardian=Nazarene)-Ezekiel 28:14-15

 

[Blues Man]

That's not what I said about right or wrong, read it again, I am saying you DO NOT KNOW what right or wrong if you don't define the Essence of Creation (which you argued was not necessary).
Your method without theology trying to define it and your logic is to allow understanding of right or wrong to be subjective, so how's that working out these days with a society that is made up of more people subjectively picking and choosing which rules to follow, including our own President. It's called being Nihilist while expecting the people THEY CHOSE to follow their rules, that's called hypocracy & Totalitarianism=a soup for creating instability and chaos=hell

Right and wrong are subjective and are defined by societies.

It has always been that way.

 

[Blues Man]

I prefer to keep things simple. A piece of artwork depicting Pharoah or Buddha might be considered an idol to a fundamental literalist. I see such as just interesting or decorative artwork as I bear no emotional, mental, or psychological allegiance to Pharoah or Buddha or any other such figure in any way.

Jesus was not really big on keeping the rules and regulations established by religious authoritarians though he did find value in many religious traditions and gestures, i.e. observing the Passover, giving thanks, etc.

Jesus was very big on common sense. I'm pretty sure he would say that if you placed any power/confidence in that graven image of Pharoah or Buddha or whatever, you are engaging in sin as well as ignorance. It is how we see these things and not their existence that is the problem.

My opinion for what it's worth.

Buddhists that worship a likeness of Siddhartha are just as wrong as anyone else worshiping an idol. The Buddha was a man and never claimed to be divine and Buddhism has no gods as it is a purely humanistic philosophy

If the Jesus on a cross idol that is present in just about every Christian church was smashed how do you think the congregation would react?

I don't think they would react as if it was nothing but an interesting piece of art with no real meaning attached to it do you?

 

[Foxfyre]

Buddhists that worship a likeness of Siddhartha are just as wrong as anyone else worshiping an idol. The Buddha was a man and never claimed to be divine and Buddhism has no gods as it is a purely humanistic philosophy

If the Jesus on a cross idol that is present in just about every Christian church was smashed how do you think the congregation would react?

I don't think they would react as if it was nothing but an interesting piece of art with no real meaning attached to it do you?

People see desecration of artwork of religious figures/symbols as an attack on them and their religious faith, which it is. (In most cases, unless it violates community standards of decency, destruction of artwork is reprehensible in all cases.) I am not Catholic but I do know Catholics do not worship those crucifixes but worship the one and the sacrifice of the one who those crucifixes represent. Protestants generally do not place crucifixes in their homes, businesses, places of worship preferring an empty cross signifying a risen Christ. Either way if it is meaningful to the persons using them, there is no sin that I can see.

I doubt Buddhists worship those little Buddha figures any more than Catholics worship a crucifix.

I am quite confident that artistic renditions of religious figures do not violate the commandment to make no graven images/idols. But if they feel like sin to somebody else then by all means that somebody else should not have them.

 

[Foxfyre]

No that is not historically honest.
These are the only HISTORICAL Christ figures:
The many Christs -
Yeshu son of Mary 100bc (used as a portion of the Jesus account, hanged on a tree and stoned on passover as the NT accounts not crucified on a cross that later figures suffered-note the Widows mite story in the NT is a Jannaeus era coin not a Herod era-he fled towards Egypt to avoid the Jannaeus persecution of Pharisee and came back a forbidden maggis scam artist liken to Benny Hinn type)
Yehuda ben Tabbai 100bc often confused with Yeshu, his speach about feeling guilty & sorry for causing someone punishment was used in the Judas story, but no indication it was about Yeshu's prosecution.
In that 85-100bc era Shimon was
Re- established as the High priest by Jannaeus' wife Salome (a friend and follower of Yeshu) so it's possible this Shimon being re-assigned high priest was behind the Shimon-Peter story.
And This Salome mixed and combined with an ad era Salome. In fact many figures seem converged with same or similar named figures of later christs figures either as a purposeful convergence or the result of passing stories down the line.

The following are the only messianic figures in the time of Lysanias(died 35bc) and King Herod(4bc).
Yehuda (Judas) son of Hezekiah (4 BCE)
Simon of Peraea (4 BCE)
Athronges, the shepherd (4 BCE)
Yehuda (Judas) the Galilean (6 CE) tax revolter (used as a portion of the Jesus myth hence why he talks about taxes to Rome in Mark & why Lysanias died 35bc- and King Herod 4bc are in his accounts)
The only Ad era at that time of Pilate was Theudas by the Jordan (used as a portion of the Jesus myth who stole John the Baptists flock)
Benjamin the Egyptian was a christ figure but I don't recall his era.
Later in 70 ad of course was BARACOPA who had a large following until he failed his liberation to.

None of these Christs are Singularly Historically Jesus, hence Jesus is the new name for the TRINITY of Christs used for his story. And as any converged character, he has 2 professions (caepenter and fisherman)
2homwtowns (Capernaum and Nazareth which did not exist until 90ad)
2ages upon death(33, & closer to 50 says John) 2persecution methods and blames (slew & hanged & Crucifixion)
Lysan8as died in 35bc so how could Jesus lived in Pilates era? Other conflicting era provlems in the acct like the widows mite coin I pointed out etc etc. So Jesus isn't a singular acct, he's a created image of a man people made figures of and worshiped as idol god.
That'scplain and simple right there as to why Jesus itself is an idol.
Hence Isaiah 44 and warning in
Ezekiel 28 about the created image being made perfect(sinless) and called the anointed (Christ) Cherub (guardian=Nazarene)-Ezekiel 28:14-15

You have your beliefs. I have mine. Blessings upon you and your day.

 

[HaShev]

You have your beliefs. I have mine. Blessings upon you and your day.

Mine's not a belief it's a fact of historical reality, in what world can someone die in 35bc and another in 4bc and still be in a story of a guy who was born and lived in the AD era? So they moved back his birthdate to 6bc to cover their lie, but still contradicted the Census story in their acct. By the way the NT has over 50,000 lies and contradictions, even the eras of Yehuda and Theudas are swaped when the NT claims Theudas (35ad)died before Yehuda(6bc), (acts5 I believe mentions these 2 christs)

 

[HaShev]

Right and wrong are subjective and are defined by societies.

It has always been that way.

And like I asked, how is that working out thousands of wars and over 100 million murders later? Most out of the subjective ideology death worship teachings of a paradise in death over paradise in life.

 

[Foxfyre]

Mine's not a belief it's a fact of historical reality, in what world can someone die in 35bc and another in 4bc and still be in a story of a guy who was born and lived in the AD era? So they moved back his birthdate to 6bc to cover their lie, but still contradicted the Census story in their acct. By the way the NT has over 50,000 lies and contradictions, even the eras of Yehuda and Theudas are swaped when the NT claims Theudas (35ad)died before Yehuda(6bc), (acts5 I believe mentions these 2 christs)

You have your beliefs of what historical reality is and I have mine. Again blessing upon you and your day.

 

[Blues Man]

And like I asked, how is that working out thousands of wars and over 100 million murders later? Most out of the subjective ideology death worship teachings of a paradise in death over paradise in life.

That's irrelevant.

People have been waging wars since there have been people. The god of the bible even told people to go to war.

The Abrahamic religions were invented by people who had lived through generations of war, famine, natural disasters and societal collapse at the end of the Bronze age.

The humanist movement of the Renaissance period is far more responsible for the societies and our laws and the idea of human rights we have today than the bible.

 

[Blues Man]

People see desecration of artwork of religious figures/symbols as an attack on them and their religious faith, which it is. (In most cases, unless it violates community standards of decency, destruction of artwork is reprehensible in all cases.) I am not Catholic but I do know Catholics do not worship those crucifixes but worship the one and the sacrifice of the one who those crucifixes represent. Protestants generally do not place crucifixes in their homes, businesses, places of worship preferring an empty cross signifying a risen Christ. Either way if it is meaningful to the persons using them, there is no sin that I can see.

I doubt Buddhists worship those little Buddha figures any more than Catholics worship a crucifix.

I am quite confident that artistic renditions of religious figures do not violate the commandment to make no graven images/idols. But if they feel like sin to somebody else then by all means that somebody else should not have them.

I've seen Catholics kiss the feet of a statue of JC what is that other than idol worship?

And isn't the god of the bible that decides what is sin and what is not?

 

[Foxfyre]

I've seen Catholics kiss the feet of a statue of JC what is that other than idol worship?

And isn't the god of the bible that decides what is sin and what is not?

I don't see kissing the feet of a statue as worshiping that statue. It could just be an impulse of kissing or showing homage to the one the statue represents.

 

[Libby von H]

I was listening to Alan Watts speaking of life after death and he brought up this point.

Idolatry is regarded by many religions as undesirable. But why do we limit that to physical idols made of wood or stone or gold?

Is not the very concept of a god in your mind an idol of imagination? An attempt to depict what cannot be seen so that people can relate to it?

Is that why many people see a god as a person, a king on a throne, the cosmic boss? Is that very image conjured in your mind an idol as much as any statue? And is it just as dangerous as a wooden idol or is it even more dangerous?

In Hebrew and in ANE thought generally that distinction does not exist.
Hence modern books like

The God That Failed​

by Richard H. Crossman
"ix of the most important writers of the twentieth century on their conversion to and subsequent disillusionment with communism. In describing their own experiences, the authors illustrate the fate of leftism around the world. André Gide (France), Richard Wright (the United States), Ignazio Silone (Italy), Stephen Spender (England), Arthur Koestler (Germany), and Louis Fischer, an American foreign correspondent, all tell how their search for the betterment of humanity led them to communism, and the personal agony and revulsion which then caused them to reject it. "

IN fact the real illustration is in the OT story of the people asking for a king

 

[Libby von H]

I've seen Catholics kiss the feet of a statue of JC what is that other than idol worship?

And isn't the god of the bible that decides what is sin and what is not?

And when you kiss the picture of your dead mother carried in your wallet , what is that , O hypocrite of demonic proportion.
He who loves father or mother more than me.....Remember that.

 

[Blues Man]

And when you kiss the picture of your dead mother carried in your wallet , what is that , O hypocrite of demonic proportion.
He who loves father or mother more than me.....Remember that.

I have never kissed a photograph of anyone ( that's actually kind of gross). I guess unlike you I know that a picture is not the same thing as the person

And look at the hypocrite who can't even commit to his own morals and do what he says he's going to do calling other people hypocrites.

 

[Libby von H]

I have never kissed a photograph of anyone ( that's actually kind of gross). I guess unlike you I know that a picture is not the same thing as the person

And look at the hypocrite who can't even commit to his own morals and do what he says he's going to do calling other people hypocrites.

Plus you are stupid....Why do you know what I am thinking before a holy picture but I cannot do so with your mother's picture.
Just stupid
When I see the Pieta I think of Jesus and Mary not marble.

 

[Blues Man]

Plus you are stupid....Why do you know what I am thinking before a holy picture but I cannot do so with your mother's picture.
Just stupid
When I see the Pieta I think of Jesus and Mary not marble.

Your very thoughts can be sins according to your god so the real question is do YOU know what you are thinking whne you kneel before an idol?

IDGAF what you are thinking. You have demonstrated that you are of weak character and that you are a liar so your thinking is as unimportant to me as your morality and character are to you.

And you don't know what Jesus or Mary actually looked like do you? So just your imagination of them could be idolatry you are making up (creating) them in your mind and I could say when you do that you are playing at being a god.

 

[Care4all]

I was listening to Alan Watts speaking of life after death and he brought up this point.

Idolatry is regarded by many religions as undesirable. But why do we limit that to physical idols made of wood or stone or gold?

Is not the very concept of a god in your mind an idol of imagination? An attempt to depict what cannot be seen so that people can relate to it?

Is that why many people see a god as a person, a king on a throne, the cosmic boss? Is that very image conjured in your mind an idol as much as any statue? And is it just as dangerous as a wooden idol or is it even more dangerous?

I've never put God the Father, in my imagination... in to human form?

My prayers are spiritual, with no imagination of speaking to a human or any Godly form?

I do speak of God as a him, but I truly do so to be polite and consistent with the world calling Him, a him....but do not put an image to God's appearance when praying, or honoring, or begging for help!!!

God to me is a spiritual feeling, a presence that is unseen, other than in Nature's beauty and works. An overwhelming feeling, that someone/something really powerful and encompassing, is there....!

But going back to your question and statement....

Yes, thinking something and seeing something, and imagining that something....can be a spiritual graven image that you blasphemy God with, that you idolize....the Lord sees the seen, and unseen....imho.

 

[Blues Man]

I've never put God the Father, in my imagination... in to human form?

My prayers are spiritual, with no imagination of speaking to a human or any Godly form?

I do speak of God as a him, but I truly do so to be polite and consistent with the world calling Him, a him....but do not put an image to God's appearance when praying, or honoring, or begging for help!!!

God to me is a spiritual feeling, a presence that is unseen, other than in Nature's beauty and works. An overwhelming feeling, that someone/something really powerful and encompassing, is there....!

But going back to your question and statement....

Yes, thinking something and seeing something, and imagining that something....can be spiritual graven image that you blasphemy God with, that you idolize....the Lord sees the seen, and unseen....imho.

Yet in churches all over the world there are statues and you have seen them. Why else do you think that WASPs see Jesus as a White guy?