Zone1 Is a conceptual idol as dangerous as a graven idol?

[Blues Man]

I was listening to Alan Watts speaking of life after death and he brought up this point.

Idolatry is regarded by many religions as undesirable. But why do we limit that to physical idols made of wood or stone or gold?

Is not the very concept of a god in your mind an idol of imagination? An attempt to depict what cannot be seen so that people can relate to it?

Is that why many people see a god as a person, a king on a throne, the cosmic boss? Is that very image conjured in your mind an idol as much as any statue? And is it just as dangerous as a wooden idol or is it even more dangerous?

 

[HaShev]

I was listening to Alan Watts speaking of life after death and he brought up this point.

Idolatry is regarded by many religions as undesirable. But why do we limit that to physical idols made of wood or stone or gold?

Is not the very concept of a god in your mind an idol of imagination? An attempt to depict what cannot be seen so that people can relate to it?

Is that why many people see a god as a person, a king on a throne, the cosmic boss? Is that very image conjured in your mind an idol as much as any statue? And is it just as dangerous as a wooden idol or is it even more dangerous?

The Bible views idols as human artifacts, not as representations of deity. Hence idol worship is regarded as a form of materialism, and, conversely, any false reliance on human power or wealth is a form of idolatry. A more spiritual conception of idolatry is to identify it with egoism and human craving, since attachment to these false realities separates us from our true nature. In our century, the idols of nationalism, racism, and secular ideologies have captivated millions, with horrible results.

 

[Blues Man]

The Bible views idols as human artifacts, not as representations of deity. Hence idol worship is regarded as a form of materialism, and, conversely, any false reliance on human power or wealth is a form of idolatry. A more spiritual conception of idolatry is to identify it with egoism and human craving, since attachment to these false realities separates us from our true nature. In our century, the idols of nationalism, racism, and secular ideologies have captivated millions, with horrible results.

Is not the image or concept in your mind a human artifact? The bible states that thoughts themselves can be sins.

Is it not your craving to know your god. Your craving to please your god and your craving for eternal life?

Abrahamic religions are based in the self as it is the promise that you as you will be you for eternity. The very idea of an individual soul is egoistic is it not?

Why is it that you do not think the conceptual idol of a god is not as dangerous as the concepts of nationalism or money, or power. We have seen what happens when different people hold different concepts of their god have we not?

 

[HaShev]

Is not the image or concept in your mind a human artifact? The bible states that thoughts themselves can be sins.

Is it not your craving to know your god. Your craving to please your god and your craving for eternal life?

Abrahamic religions are based in the self as it is the promise that you as you will be you for eternity. The very idea of an individual soul is egoistic is it not?

Why is it that you do not think the conceptual idol of a god is not as dangerous as the concepts of nationalism or money, or power. We have seen what happens when different people hold different concepts of their god have we not?

Yes when it's false reliances (of the minds creation) which is why rabbits feet (reliance on rubbing it) is like a buddah belly statue, and why horoscopes are forbidden and why I never read the fortune in a fortune cookie. Whether it's a physical representation of that false reliance or mere concept in the mind they are similar false reliances and this includes the global warming cult reliances from a mere concept (that is skewed).

 

[Blues Man]

Yes when it's false reliances (of the minds creation) which is why rabbits feet (reliance on rubbing it) is like a buddah belly statue, and why horoscopes are forbidden and why I never read the fortune in a fortune cookie. Whether it's a physical representation of that false reliance or mere concept in the mind they are similar false reliances and thia includes the global warming cult reliances from a mere concept (that is skewed).

But your idea of what your god is in your head is OK?

Isn't that just a conceptual rabbit's foot?

 

[Arlette]

But your idea of what your god is in your head is OK?

Isn't that just a conceptual rabbit's foot?

What does this God in your mind look like?

 

[Blues Man]

What does this God in your mind look like?

I have no concept any gods. I do not know if any gods exist or not and I don't think it matters if they do.

It was a comment by Alan Watts that I heard and was thinking about.

Personally I'm more of a Taoist on this matter.

The Tao that can be named is not the true Tao

I am of the mind that the conception of the universe and what was involved is utterly unknowable but we can understand how to live in harmony with it.

 

[Arlette]

I have no concept any gods. I do not know if any gods exist or not and I don't think it matters if they do.

It was a comment by Alan Watts that I heard and was thinking about.

Personally I'm more of a Taoist on this matter.

The Tao that can be named is not the true Tao

I am of the mind that the conception of the universe and what was involved is utterly unknowable but we can understand how to live in harmony with it.

Oh ok. I thought you are a Christian and the Bible says God made us looking like God. I think it's the other way around, that people made God in our image.

 

[Blues Man]

Oh ok. I thought you are a Christian and the Bible says God made us looking like God. I think it's the other way around, that people made God in our image.

I'll agree with that. In fact the concept of god as the cosmic king is based on the kings of the near East in the Bronze and Iron Ages.

The kingdom of the Abrahamic god is a monarchy.

Now this brings up another interesting thought. If this kingdom of the god of the bible is a monarchy then why would anyone who believes in this god not think that a monarchy is the best form of government? There is no republic of Heaven is there?

 

[Arlette]

I'll agree with that. In fact the concept of god as the cosmic king is based on the kings of the near East in the Bronze and Iron Ages.

The kingdom of the Abrahamic god is a monarchy.

Now this brings up another interesting thought. If this kingdom of the god of the bible is a monarchy then why would anyone who believes in this god not think that a monarchy is the best form of government? There is no republic of Heaven is there?

I'm an atheist and the notion that millions of people still take this ancient bullshit seriously is befuddling.

 

[HaShev]

But your idea of what your god is in your head is OK?

Isn't that just a conceptual rabbit's foot?

No, because God is a term we use in our language representing thr source of creation (creator).
The argument over what that source is can only be intellectually hobest if we pinpoint the most finite source of creation, otherwise all those claims on creation have a further source of creation making those claims invalid arguments.
So the best way to describe the most finite source of creation, is that "Essence" to become complete and whole =progress-evolve.
That's why in Judaism the Holy city is named after that Essence of "Shalem" (completeness-wholeness-stability)
And why the Tanakh & Torah and elsewhere states:
Isaiah 42:8 we can't pray to any image of anything physical- Exodus 20:3-7 and Deuteronomy 5:8-10
God is not a man nor form-(Isaiah 2:22, 14:13, I Samuel 15:29, Numbers 23:19, and Hosea 11:9, Deuteronomy 4:11-12 and the 13 major principles of the Jewish faith based on the Rambam's teaching of "ain lo demus haguf ve'ayno guf" -- that Hashem has no physical form.)

The Gemarah (Baba Batra 75) Tells us Jerusalem is named after G0D and is the place commemorating his name(description)& essence.

In Sefer D’varim (12:5, 11, 14, 18, 21; 14:23,24, 25; 15:20; 16:2, 6, 7, 11, 15, 16; 17:8, 10; 18:6; 26:2; 31:11).the place that I will choose to place My Name(the messenger of God shares this name and reflects this Essence). That is referring to YeruShalem because Sifri identifies the place which Hashem will choose (12:18) as “Yerushalayim”.

Shalem means completeness/wholeness thus describing the Essence to be all we could and should be aka evolve/progress.

YeruShalem would carry the name. (1 Kings 11:36 &
in dead sea scrolls: Words of the Archangel Michael scroll 4Q529, 6Q23)

Why is it in the top messenger's scroll?
Because Shalem is the Evening Star (Michael who rises-Dan 12:1-4)

SINCE GOD (an Essence describing creations most finite source) IS NOT A MAN (NOT ANTHROPROMORPHIC) then it's the mediator (metatron) aka (top messenger) who is manifesting-reflecting and emulating that essence & has to describe that Essence to mankind as a mediator between God and Man.

In laymen terms when in proper perspective it's not idolization, however when we go against the part about Anthropromorphizing God, then we are idolizing a figure and form from our minds like you said, and that creates false pretenses and reliances on a physical figure like I said before, which then misses the processes and steps and our own work it takes to bring about that progression in stages to become stable complete and whole (Shalem).

 

[Blues Man]

No, because God is a term we use in our language representing thr source of creation (creator).
The argument over what that source is can only be intellectually hobest if we pinpoint the most finite source of creation, otherwise all those claims on creation have a further source of creation making those claims invalid arguments.
So the best way to describe the most finite source of creation, is that "Essence" to become complete and whole =progress-evolve.
That's why in Judaism the Holy city is named after that Essence of "Shalem" (completeness-wholeness-stability)
And why the Tanakh & Torah and elsewhere states:
Isaiah 42:8 we can't pray to any image of anything physical- Exodus 20:3-7 and Deuteronomy 5:8-10
God is not a man nor form-(Isaiah 2:22, 14:13, I Samuel 15:29, Numbers 23:19, and Hosea 11:9, Deuteronomy 4:11-12 and the 13 major principles of the Jewish faith based on the Rambam's teaching of "ain lo demus haguf ve'ayno guf" -- that Hashem has no physical form.)

The Gemarah (Baba Batra 75) Tells us Jerusalem is named after G0D and is the place commemorating his name(description)& essence.

In Sefer D’varim (12:5, 11, 14, 18, 21; 14:23,24, 25; 15:20; 16:2, 6, 7, 11, 15, 16; 17:8, 10; 18:6; 26:2; 31:11).the place that I will choose to place My Name(the messenger of God shares this name and reflects this Essence). That is referring to YeruShalem because Sifri identifies the place which Hashem will choose (12:18) as “Yerushalayim”.

Shalem means completeness/wholeness thus describing the Essence to be all we could and should be aka evolve/progress.

YeruShalem would carry the name. (1 Kings 11:36 &
in dead sea scrolls: Words of the Archangel Michael scroll 4Q529, 6Q23)

Why is it in the top messenger's scroll?
Because Shalem is the Evening Star (Michael who rises-Dan 12:1-4)

SINCE GOD (an Essence describing creations most finite source) IS NOT A MAN (NOT ANTHROPROMORPHIC) then it's the mediator (metatron) aka (top messenger) who is manifesting-reflecting and emulating that essence & has to describe that Essence to mankind as a mediator between God and Man.

In laymen terms when in proper perspective it's not idolization, however when we go against the part about Anthropromorphizing God, then we are idolizing a figure and form from our minds like you said, and that creates false pretenses and reliances on a physical figure like I said before, which then misses the processes and steps and our own work it takes to bring about that progression in stages to become stable complete and whole (Shalem).

But the idea in your head that the word represents is still an image of your creation just as if it was a wooden carving.

Even if that image is nothing but a blinding light it is an image of your own creation and is that not an idol?

And if this god is described as all knowing all powerful and immortal then it is infinite by definition how can it be the finite source of anything. If it was finite then you would have to consider the possibility that this essence may not exist anymore and the idea of eternal rewards or punishments cannot be true.

 

[HaShev]

But the idea in your head that the word represents is still an image of your creation just as if it was a wooden carving.

Even if that image is nothing but a blinding light it is an image of your own creation and is that not an idol?

And if this god is described as all knowing all powerful and immortal then it is infinite by definition how can it be the finite source of anything. If it was finite then you would have to consider the possibility that this essence may not exist anymore and the idea of eternal rewards or punishments cannot be true.

What part of an Essence and not an image are you not getting?
ahhhh see now where their anthropromorphic concept of God even skews your ability to seperate what I'm saying from what precepts have been embedded in everyone's head-hence forbidden for this reason?
Even using words like Face of God, hands of God, voice of God, accidentally depict the forbidden physical description, if you don't grasp the concept of the Judaic God being non physical description.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm an atheist and the notion that millions of people still take this ancient bullshit seriously is befuddling.

It takes an interest in ancient histories, ancient cultures, and ancient philosophies. What did they know, what did they learn, what did they want to leave their descendants.

 

[Arlette]

But the idea in your head that the word represents is still an image of your creation just as if it was a wooden carving.

Even if that image is nothing but a blinding light it is an image of your own creation and is that not an idol?

And if this god is described as all knowing all powerful and immortal then it is infinite by definition how can it be the finite source of anything. If it was finite then you would have to consider the possibility that this essence may not exist anymore and the idea of eternal rewards or punishments cannot be true.

Most of those God entities have died. People stopped believing in em and the God went away like a fart in the wind.

 

[Blues Man]

What part of an Essence and not an image are you not getting?
ahhhh see now where their anthropromorphic concept of God even skews your ability to seperate what I'm saying from what precepts have been embedded in everyone's head-hence forbidden for this reason?
Even using words like Face of God, hands of God, voice of God, accidentally depict the forbidden physical description, if you don't grasp the concept of the Judaic God being non physical description.

I don't give any credence to the Abrahamic god at all.

The concept of your god in your mind is your creation is it not? Maybe it is the creation of another human you have adopted. Or all the descriptions in the bible have melded into this weird combination but all these things are still representations of something that has never been seen.

If a mere thought can be a sin then certainly the conceptual image in your head can be an idol

The Christian religion is chock full of idolatry anyway so it seems to be an accepted practice for them.

 

[Blues Man]

Most of those God entities have died. People stopped believing in em and the God went away like a fart in the wind.

Plenty of people still believe in them.

 

[HaShev]

I don't give any credence to the Abrahamic god at all.

The concept of your god in your mind is your creation is it not? Maybe it is the creation of another human you have adopted. Or all the descriptions in the bible have melded into this weird combination but all these things are still representations of something that has never been seen.

If a mere thought can be a sin then certainly the conceptual image in your head can be an idol

The Christian religion is chock full of idolatry anyway so it seems to be an accepted practice for them.

Are you a naturalist Humanist? Then it's the same thing except Judaism describes (names)that Essence, that's why Nature and God have the same Numerical Value in numerology. You just proved my point and the Torah's point, that society's anthropromorphic description of an Essence even hindered and fooled you in how you percieve precepts like Source of creation.(God).
So you are no less a victim then Christians.
The reason it's important to describe our creation and it's process (source) is because it helps to know if we are in line or going against our creation and our purpose within, thus reflect "that Nature" (Essence) and Manifest that Nature rather than butt our heads and reject it thus suffer and hinder our Progress and stability and never reach our complete ability to live life in a blessing. It's why chosing death (kingdom in death worship) is called chosing the curse.

 

[Arlette]

Plenty of people still believe in them.

Nah. Thor and Zeus are dead

 

[Blues Man]

Are you a naturalist Humanist? Then it's the same thing except Judaism describes (names)that Essence, that's why Nature and God have the same Numerical Value in numerology. You just proved my point and the Torah's point, that society's anthropromorphic description of an Essence even hindered and fooled you in how you percieve precepts like Source of creation.(God).
So you are no less a victim then Christians.
The reason it's important to describe our creation and it's process (source) is because it helps to know if we are in line or going against our creation and our purpose within, thus reflect "that Nature" (Essence) and Manifest that Nature rather than butt our heads and reject it thus suffer and hinder our Progress and stability and never reach our complete ability to live life in a blessing. It's why chosing death (kingdom in death worship) is called chosing the curse.

Yes We are all "victims" in that we all have evolved the same way and our brains are all similar and work the same way. But I have no religious canons that I can violate. I cannot violate the commandments of the Abrahamic god because I lend no credence to it. One of the reasons I don't is that those religions hold human beings to an impossible standard then when you inevitably fail to meet that standard there is punishment for your failure.

Thoughts come unbidden to humans and when thought can be called a sin it's no different than saying breathing or the very beating of your heart are also sins.

And I see no importance in describing the unknowable. We can acknowledge that we do not know and IMO we will never know but that doesn't mean we can't live in harmony with the nature of the universe.