Irreducible complexity

[fncceo]

Apples and light bulbs ... you haven't proven anything.

Nevertheless a car requires a minimum number of parts in order to function. You can't refute that. Why would it be any different for life?

Life does require a minimum number of parts to function. It must have the ability to metabolize and the ability to pass on encoded material to its progeny.

Literally everything else an organism might possess is a factory option.

Once life begins, evolution is inevitable.

Even if this is true, you must have life before it can evolve. However, centuries of observation have proven that life comes only from life. It cannot evolve from lifeless chemicals.

You've been misinformed. The famous Miller-Urey experiment (which as been repeated countless times) has proven without a doubt that organic molecules, including dozens of different amino acids, can spontaneously assemble in conditions similar to those of the early earth.

Some of these crude organic molecules are even capable of making copies of themselves.

As it turns out, the jump from inorganic to organic chemistry is easier than anyone could have imagined.

Talking points. Is that all you've got? Let's refute what you said, although it's already been done countless times. First of all, that experiment did not create ALL of the amino acids required for life. Second, it produced equal amounts of left and right-handed amino acids. DNA and proteins must have either left-handed or right-handed amino acids. If they have even one of the wrong handedness it doesn't function. Then there is the problem of information. All life is the result of information. DNA is copied, and proteins are created by a self-replicating assembler. Something which requires programming in order to carry out it's tasks. Nature plus random chance, even if they could construct such a device, could never program it. Educate yourself. Your ignorance offends me greatly.

In fact, variations of the MU experiment have produced 30 of the 42 known amino acids. Many of those known to be involved in assembling organic molecule chains.

RNA molecules have been synthesized under artificial conditions that can self-replicate without the assistance of any proteins or cellular components.

The earliest replication could have begun just this way ... hit and miss ... like a rat in a maze ... where the prize for choosing the correct combination of alternatives is survival of offspring versus a piece of cheese.

MU experimentation has been only going on for a few decades, in small laboratory contained low-volume flasks. Nature was conducting hundreds of Trillions of MU experiments on a planetary scale with Trillions of permutations for hundreds of Millions of years before coming up with a single-celled organism.

It's safe to say that nature has been at this a whole lot longer than we have.

 

[SandSquid]

Atheists will try to tell us that this is not a valid argument. Let's apply this argument to something modern and concrete. The automobile. In its simplest form, it is irreducibly complex.

Battery
So you want to turn your car on? Obviously, this is the big boy you're going to need to get everything going.

Axle
Another important part of any car. How are you going to keep the fun rolling without these?

Brakes
Having trusty brakes is essential to driving a safe car. When you start to hear those things squeak at red lights, it might be time to head into the shop and get some new ones.

Pistons
These are best when they're pumping smoothly and quickly. Built to handle all those gasoline explosions, these are where your car gets its horses.

Fuel Injector
The successor to the carburetor, this little thing gets the gas from the fuel tank into the engine.

Radiator
The radiator is part of the system that keeps your car's engine from overheating. Here, the engine coolant has time to give off heat into the air before it goes back into the engine to pick up...more heat.

Transmission
Here's where the power turns into movement. The transmission takes the energy generated in the engine and transmits it to the connected wheels.

Spark Plug
The spark plug is what you use to get the car started. It uses an electric spark to ignite fuel in the engine's ignition chamber.

Now, can anyone tell me which part you can remove and still have a car that you would trust your life in? Take your time. I'll wait.

My f250 diesel had no spark plugs. In fact a huge number of the world's cars are diesel, this no spark plugs. Almost every single trucker doesn't have spark plugs.

My buddy has a Tesla. One of the safest cars ever built and it is missing about half that list.

 

[SandSquid]

Atheists will try to tell us that this is not a valid argument. Let's apply this argument to something modern and concrete. The automobile. In its simplest form, it is irreducibly complex.

Battery
So you want to turn your car on? Obviously, this is the big boy you're going to need to get everything going.

Axle
Another important part of any car. How are you going to keep the fun rolling without these?

Brakes
Having trusty brakes is essential to driving a safe car. When you start to hear those things squeak at red lights, it might be time to head into the shop and get some new ones.

Pistons
These are best when they're pumping smoothly and quickly. Built to handle all those gasoline explosions, these are where your car gets its horses.

Fuel Injector
The successor to the carburetor, this little thing gets the gas from the fuel tank into the engine.

Radiator
The radiator is part of the system that keeps your car's engine from overheating. Here, the engine coolant has time to give off heat into the air before it goes back into the engine to pick up...more heat.

Transmission
Here's where the power turns into movement. The transmission takes the energy generated in the engine and transmits it to the connected wheels.

Spark Plug
The spark plug is what you use to get the car started. It uses an electric spark to ignite fuel in the engine's ignition chamber.

Now, can anyone tell me which part you can remove and still have a car that you would trust your life in? Take your time. I'll wait.

Lol, take the battery off and put on a hand crank like Henry Ford did.

Even funnier for your silly little failed analogy is the fact that battery powered starters are part of the evolution of the modern automobile.


Oops.

Regardless of which one you use, it is required to start the car. OOPS!

Huh?

Don't know much about cars do you.

OK genius. How would you start a car without a crank or a battery?

With a crank you started a car, until the EVOLUTION of the battery starter. And now with EVs we can lose the spark plugs, ignition, fuel injector, and radiator from your list.

Is your list a way to prove that through evolution we've come to the modern car?

 

[Muhammed]

Atheists will try to tell us that this is not a valid argument. Let's apply this argument to something modern and concrete. The automobile. In its simplest form, it is irreducibly complex.

Battery
So you want to turn your car on? Obviously, this is the big boy you're going to need to get everything going.

Axle
Another important part of any car. How are you going to keep the fun rolling without these?

Brakes
Having trusty brakes is essential to driving a safe car. When you start to hear those things squeak at red lights, it might be time to head into the shop and get some new ones.

Pistons
These are best when they're pumping smoothly and quickly. Built to handle all those gasoline explosions, these are where your car gets its horses.

Fuel Injector
The successor to the carburetor, this little thing gets the gas from the fuel tank into the engine.

Radiator
The radiator is part of the system that keeps your car's engine from overheating. Here, the engine coolant has time to give off heat into the air before it goes back into the engine to pick up...more heat.

Transmission
Here's where the power turns into movement. The transmission takes the energy generated in the engine and transmits it to the connected wheels.

Spark Plug
The spark plug is what you use to get the car started. It uses an electric spark to ignite fuel in the engine's ignition chamber.

Now, can anyone tell me which part you can remove and still have a car that you would trust your life in? Take your time. I'll wait.

You do get that, for the most part, cars aren't biological creatures, right?

Doesn't matter. Does it?

It matters a lot ... evolution is a biological process. Non-biological things cannot evolve.

Irrelevant. I have proven that something can be irreducibly complex.

For the sake of argument, let's pretend that you did prove that.

So what is your point?

 

[Olde Europe]

For the sake of argument, let's pretend that you did prove that.

So what is your point?

If something is irreducibly complex (i.e. allegedly: life), it cannot have evolved from earlier, simpler, less complex forms. Hence, for something as complex as life to exist, there has to be a creator.

 

[fncceo]

For the sake of argument, let's pretend that you did prove that.

So what is your point?

If something is irreducibly complex (i.e. allegedly: life), it cannot have evolved from earlier, simpler, less complex forms. Hence, for something as complex as life to exist, there has to be a creator.

But life isn't irreducibly complex.

It's already been proven that the most elemental building blocks of life can indeed be created by the environment of the early earth. One self-replicating life exists, evolution is inevitable.

That doesn't remove the possibility of a creator. It merely pushes back the notion of where the creator stopped creating and let his creation build itself.

 

[BULLDOG]

Atheists will try to tell us that this is not a valid argument. Let's apply this argument to something modern and concrete. The automobile. In its simplest form, it is irreducibly complex.

Battery
So you want to turn your car on? Obviously, this is the big boy you're going to need to get everything going.

Axle
Another important part of any car. How are you going to keep the fun rolling without these?

Brakes
Having trusty brakes is essential to driving a safe car. When you start to hear those things squeak at red lights, it might be time to head into the shop and get some new ones.

Pistons
These are best when they're pumping smoothly and quickly. Built to handle all those gasoline explosions, these are where your car gets its horses.

Fuel Injector
The successor to the carburetor, this little thing gets the gas from the fuel tank into the engine.

Radiator
The radiator is part of the system that keeps your car's engine from overheating. Here, the engine coolant has time to give off heat into the air before it goes back into the engine to pick up...more heat.

Transmission
Here's where the power turns into movement. The transmission takes the energy generated in the engine and transmits it to the connected wheels.

Spark Plug
The spark plug is what you use to get the car started. It uses an electric spark to ignite fuel in the engine's ignition chamber.

Now, can anyone tell me which part you can remove and still have a car that you would trust your life in? Take your time. I'll wait.

Obviously the first on the list is unnecessary.

/thread

And just how would you start a car without a battery?

,Send a donation to a TV preacher and pray for it to start ?

 

[fncceo]

Atheists will try to tell us that this is not a valid argument. Let's apply this argument to something modern and concrete. The automobile. In its simplest form, it is irreducibly complex.

Battery
So you want to turn your car on? Obviously, this is the big boy you're going to need to get everything going.

Axle
Another important part of any car. How are you going to keep the fun rolling without these?

Brakes
Having trusty brakes is essential to driving a safe car. When you start to hear those things squeak at red lights, it might be time to head into the shop and get some new ones.

Pistons
These are best when they're pumping smoothly and quickly. Built to handle all those gasoline explosions, these are where your car gets its horses.

Fuel Injector
The successor to the carburetor, this little thing gets the gas from the fuel tank into the engine.

Radiator
The radiator is part of the system that keeps your car's engine from overheating. Here, the engine coolant has time to give off heat into the air before it goes back into the engine to pick up...more heat.

Transmission
Here's where the power turns into movement. The transmission takes the energy generated in the engine and transmits it to the connected wheels.

Spark Plug
The spark plug is what you use to get the car started. It uses an electric spark to ignite fuel in the engine's ignition chamber.

Now, can anyone tell me which part you can remove and still have a car that you would trust your life in? Take your time. I'll wait.

Obviously the first on the list is unnecessary.

/thread

And just how would you start a car without a battery?

,Send a donation to a TV preacher and pray for it to start ?

Cheaper to join the auto club.

 

[BULLDOG]

Atheists will try to tell us that this is not a valid argument. Let's apply this argument to something modern and concrete. The automobile. In its simplest form, it is irreducibly complex.

Battery
So you want to turn your car on? Obviously, this is the big boy you're going to need to get everything going.

Axle
Another important part of any car. How are you going to keep the fun rolling without these?

Brakes
Having trusty brakes is essential to driving a safe car. When you start to hear those things squeak at red lights, it might be time to head into the shop and get some new ones.

Pistons
These are best when they're pumping smoothly and quickly. Built to handle all those gasoline explosions, these are where your car gets its horses.

Fuel Injector
The successor to the carburetor, this little thing gets the gas from the fuel tank into the engine.

Radiator
The radiator is part of the system that keeps your car's engine from overheating. Here, the engine coolant has time to give off heat into the air before it goes back into the engine to pick up...more heat.

Transmission
Here's where the power turns into movement. The transmission takes the energy generated in the engine and transmits it to the connected wheels.

Spark Plug
The spark plug is what you use to get the car started. It uses an electric spark to ignite fuel in the engine's ignition chamber.

Now, can anyone tell me which part you can remove and still have a car that you would trust your life in? Take your time. I'll wait.

You do get that, for the most part, cars aren't biological creatures, right?

Doesn't matter. Does it?

It only matters if you try to relate it to that goofy OP.

 

[BULLDOG]

Atheists will try to tell us that this is not a valid argument. Let's apply this argument to something modern and concrete. The automobile. In its simplest form, it is irreducibly complex.

Battery
So you want to turn your car on? Obviously, this is the big boy you're going to need to get everything going.

Axle
Another important part of any car. How are you going to keep the fun rolling without these?

Brakes
Having trusty brakes is essential to driving a safe car. When you start to hear those things squeak at red lights, it might be time to head into the shop and get some new ones.

Pistons
These are best when they're pumping smoothly and quickly. Built to handle all those gasoline explosions, these are where your car gets its horses.

Fuel Injector
The successor to the carburetor, this little thing gets the gas from the fuel tank into the engine.

Radiator
The radiator is part of the system that keeps your car's engine from overheating. Here, the engine coolant has time to give off heat into the air before it goes back into the engine to pick up...more heat.

Transmission
Here's where the power turns into movement. The transmission takes the energy generated in the engine and transmits it to the connected wheels.

Spark Plug
The spark plug is what you use to get the car started. It uses an electric spark to ignite fuel in the engine's ignition chamber.

Now, can anyone tell me which part you can remove and still have a car that you would trust your life in? Take your time. I'll wait.

You do get that, for the most part, cars aren't biological creatures, right?

Doesn't matter. Does it?

It matters a lot ... evolution is a biological process. Non-biological things cannot evolve.

Irrelevant. I have proven that something can be irreducibly complex.

You've proven you don't know much about cars.

 

[Olde Europe]

But life isn't irreducibly complex.

It's already been proven that the most elemental building blocks of life can indeed be created by the environment of the early earth. One self-replicating life exists, evolution is inevitable.

That doesn't remove the possibility of a creator. It merely pushes back the notion of where the creator stopped creating and let his creation build itself.

Gawd.

If it isn't, then I got lucky I didn't assert it is "irreducibly complex".

The most "elemental building blocks of life" isn't the same as life, and we don't yet know how to get from the former to the latter. And evolution is inevitable only insofar as self-replication is prone to error.

There is no way to remove the possibility of a creator. But, if all we see can be explained to have evolved, it removes the necessity of a creator to explain it.

 

[fncceo]

and we don't yet know how to get from the former to the latter

We have a theory that explains it ... one that has at least partially been supported by evidence and experiment.

So, you're reduced to two (equally unproven) theories ... one that life on earth evolved by natural selection ... and another that says that all life on earth was put here in a single act of creation.

I've list a small sampling of the evidence and experiment that supports the evolution theory. Please show the evidence and experiment that supports the creation theory.

There is no way to remove the possibility of a creator

There absolutely is. Come up with a competing theory with more evidentiary proof than the creation theory.

 

[Olde Europe]

and we don't yet know how to get from the former to the latter

We have a theory that explains it ... one that has at least partially been supported by evidence and experiment.

So, you're reduced to two (equally unproven) theories ... one that life on earth evolved by natural selection ... and another that says that all life on earth was put here in a single act of creation.

I've list a small sampling of the evidence and experiment that supports the evolution theory. Please show the evidence and experiment that supports the creation theory.

There is no way to remove the possibility of a creator

There absolutely is. Come up with a competing theory with more evidentiary proof than the creation theory.

No, we have a theory that says life can have emerged from simpler, non-life forms in a toxic soup, and another that says, life is irreducibly complex and had to be created. Hence the need for a creator.

I say, the latter theory is faulty, and without basis in fact. So, if you think about it, you may realize how ludicrous it is for you to demand I provide "evidentiary proof" for it. Or maybe not.

 

[BULLDOG]

We don't know how life started, and the existence of a creator is still a possibility, but we have no reason to believe it is a fact.

 

[Hollie]

and we don't yet know how to get from the former to the latter

We have a theory that explains it ... one that has at least partially been supported by evidence and experiment.

So, you're reduced to two (equally unproven) theories ... one that life on earth evolved by natural selection ... and another that says that all life on earth was put here in a single act of creation.

I've list a small sampling of the evidence and experiment that supports the evolution theory. Please show the evidence and experiment that supports the creation theory.

There is no way to remove the possibility of a creator

There absolutely is. Come up with a competing theory with more evidentiary proof than the creation theory.

No, we have a theory that says life can have emerged from simpler, non-life forms in a toxic soup, and another that says, life is irreducibly complex and had to be created. Hence the need for a creator.

I say, the latter theory is faulty, and without basis in fact. So, if you think about it, you may realize how ludicrous it is for you to demand I provide "evidentiary proof" for it. Or maybe not.

Your “....because I say so”, claim that a theory is faulty and without basis in fact is, how shall we say, “faulty and without basis in fact.”

 

[fncceo]

No, we have a theory that says life can have emerged from simpler, non-life forms in a toxic soup

Which has been demonstrated to be not only possible, but relatively easy to replicate. Toxicity is different for different organisms. Bacteria can, and do, thrive in an environment that would kill most higher forms of life.

So, the idea that life cannot have arisen that way is demonstrably false.

If you have evidence to support an alternative theory, I'd be glad to hear it. For the record, stating you don't believe in something has no bearing or offers no verification of a theory in which you do believe. It simply means you don't accept the evidence with which you've been presented.

 

[Olde Europe]

So, the idea that life cannot have arisen that way

So, I got lucky, again, having not asserted same.

 

[fncceo]

So, the idea that life cannot have arisen that way

So, I got lucky, again, having not asserted same.

Does that mean you won't be offering any evidence in support of alternative theories?

 

[Olde Europe]

So, the idea that life cannot have arisen that way

So, I got lucky, again, having not asserted same.

Does that mean you won't be offering any evidence in support of alternative theories?

That means, I got lucky, again, having not asserted same.

 

[rightwinger]

For the sake of argument, let's pretend that you did prove that.

So what is your point?

If something is irreducibly complex (i.e. allegedly: life), it cannot have evolved from earlier, simpler, less complex forms. Hence, for something as complex as life to exist, there has to be a creator.

Not all life is complex