Debate Now Incivility

[Wake]

But the bottom line is: how do you get people to practice who are determined to be uncivil?

You can't. As with our special patients, we can't forcefully make them do things that are good for them. The sad part is that those brain-damaged patients have an excuse.

 

[Statistikhengst]

My vagina is a personal part of my anatomy. Your avatar is NOT. Now, perhaps you would have more luck with the ladies if you were less uncivil?

Your question would only make sense were you privy to my private life, which you will never be, and even then, I believe you would be very surprised at the answer. Of course, that question of yours was also uncivil, but I can live with it. Righty incivility is always tolerated in USMB.

My question was about your public forum avatar. I asked nothing about your private life and I never have, and I don't care to know. Also, in order to be civil, you could have said that you didn't wish to divulge such information, but you had to go "there" like you always do. You are the epitome of incivility here on the forum in my opinion of course.

Okay Chris. I gotta call you out now on a Rule #1 violation. Your post is ad hominem and illegal re your opinion of Stat. Just as his was a violation accusing you of some kind of motive for inquiring about his avatar.

So let's back off here and address the comments posted everybody, and leave opinions about each other personally out of it.

Well, he started it! He needs to stop thinking about the ladies' vaginas.

Okay. I'll be good. I promise!

I hate to say it, but you'll never get men to stop thinking about vaginas, that is, unless you can invent a gay pill.

Hear, hear!!!

 

[ChrisL]

But the bottom line is: how do you get people to practice who are determined to be uncivil?

You can't. As with our special patients, we can't forcefully make them do things that are good for them. The sad part is that those brain-damaged patients have an excuse.

Depends upon the other person's perception too though. Apparently, for some, just asking a question is an "attack."

 

[Wolfsister77]

Some people preach civility and treating others with respect, while at the same time disguising their own little digs and condescending comments in more polite sounding messages. You don't have to swear and be an ass to still come across as an unpleasant person.

 

[Wake]

But the bottom line is: how do you get people to practice who are determined to be uncivil?

You can't. As with our special patients, we can't forcefully make them do things that are good for them. The sad part is that those brain-damaged patients have an excuse.

Depends upon the other person's perception too though. Apparently, for some, just asking a question is an "attack."

Generally speaking, it rests on the intent.

Frankly, if you guys don't like each other you should ignore one another.

Maybe you guys should post in here what you feel incivility does for you, and what you guys might do to be more civil to one another. If not, best to distance/ignore and be happy.

 

[Foxfyre]

But the bottom line is: how do you get people to practice who are determined to be uncivil?

You can't. As with our special patients, we can't forcefully make them do things that are good for them. The sad part is that those brain-damaged patients have an excuse.

I've worked enough with people with Tourette Syndrome and the mentally challenged as well as the autistic and aspergers folks to be extremely tolerant of those dealing with such issues. I don't get concerned with 'antisocial' behavior that sometimes accompanies these issues. I can also understand those dealing with post traumatic syndromes and other reactionary disabilities and can easily dismiss most misbehaviors as unimportant.

What I don't understand are those people who seem to make it their mission in life to be rude, unpleasant, disruptive, insulting, or whatever method they choose to make somebody's life miserable. What do they get out of that? How does anybody feel better about themselves when they behave that way?

 

[ChrisL]

But the bottom line is: how do you get people to practice who are determined to be uncivil?

You can't. As with our special patients, we can't forcefully make them do things that are good for them. The sad part is that those brain-damaged patients have an excuse.

Depends upon the other person's perception too though. Apparently, for some, just asking a question is an "attack."

Generally speaking, it rests on the intent.

Frankly, if you guys don't like each other you should ignore one another.

Maybe you guys should post in here what you feel incivility does for you, and what you guys might do to be more civil to one another. If not, best to distance/ignore and be happy.

Generally speaking, some people will just LOOK for something to be offended by. True story. Like I mentioned before in a prior post, some people thrive on their drama that they create.

 

[BlueGin]

Incivility is nothing new.

During the 1980's and 1990's, the House of Representatives allowed members to make after hours speeches on any topic. These 'special orders' were almost always presented to empty seats, and they were carried on Cspan (who wasn't allowed to show the empty seats) so we were able to listen in. And some of these were so angry and vitriolic, they made a body shudder. Bob Dornan of California was there almost every night accusing the Clinton administration. Henry Gonzalez of Texas was there almost every night accusing President Reagan and President G.H.W. Bush.

During the same period, AOL (and other) chat rooms became popular. The political and religion rooms were always packed with people taking advantage of anonymity to say the most outrageous and hateful things to each other. That tradition has seemed to carry over to message boards that have mostly replaced the chat rooms and has become commonplace in our national culture.

“In today’s America, incivility is on prominent display: in the schools, where bullying is pervasive; in the workplace, where an increasing number are more stressed out by coworkers than their jobs; on the roads, where road rage maims and kills; in politics, where strident intolerance takes the place of earnest dialogue; and on the web, where many check their inhibitions at the digital door,” says Pier M. Forni, author of “The Civility Solution: What to Do When People are Rude” and director of The Civility Initiative at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore.

“How in the world can we stop bullying in schools, in the workplace, in politics, when it is so close to our national character right now?” asks Dr. Gary Namie, a psychologist and cofounder of the Workplace Bullying Institute, a Washington state–based nonprofit.​

TOPIC TO BE DISCUSSED:

Why are people uncivil and so often say hateful or insulting or hurtful things to each other in this and other environments? What do they get out of it? Do they hope to accomplish something? Has anybody ever had their mind changed by somebody yelling at them and/or being insulting? What purpose does it serve? Is there some sort of personal satisfaction attached to it? And is this a good thing? Bad thing? Can it harm people? What affect, if anything, does incivility have on others, especially kids?

RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION

1. Stay on topic with no ad hominem or personal insults directed at any specific person or group participating in this discussion or elsewhere.

2. To avoid getting bogged down, for purposes of this discussion only, the OP reserves the right to specify what definitions will be used if there is any dispute about that.

3. If you post a link, please give at least a brief description of what we will learn if we click on that link. Links can be useful, but are not required to express an opinion in this discussion.

"""Why are people uncivil and so often say hateful or insulting or hurtful things to each other in this and other environments? ...."""

They are actually fairly civil when face to face. It's anonymous message boards like this that gives one free reign to say what they are really thinking. They can drop the fake social mask and be honest. Let their hypocrisy hang out and they don't care.

Me? Nope. I'm up front and unedited regardless of here or anywhere else. Just last week I had about eight Republicans pile on me because I took exception to an attack on Biden while he was barely back from his son's funeral. My goodness those people could barely restrain themselves. I'm sure a couple of people wanted to hit me. But true to human nature in real life situations, they were totally fake.

And another person might have eight Democrats or eight accordian players jump on them because of an expressed opinion. The problem is not that somebody disagrees with somebody else. There wouldn't be any point to a message board or many other venues of participation if everybody saw everything exactly alike.

But why is it necessary to attack a person personally or try to verbally destroy him/her just because he/she says something others don't agree with? There was a time when people could speak their mind and be criticized for it without being demonized for it. When did that change? Why did it change?

Bullies want to control your actions and speech. You can see this in all venues...message boards, social media, the MSM etc.

It has gotten worse with the anonymous status of the internet though because people don't have to bully face to face and risk getting a beat down. They can do it anon and face no consequences.

 

[Wolfsister77]

People who are determined to be rude, insulting, and unpleasant are best ignored. Trying to figure out why people are assholes on the internet is an exercise in futility. Most likely they are insecure and it makes them feel better about themselves.

 

[Foxfyre]

Some people preach civility and treating others with respect, while at the same time disguising their own little digs and condescending comments in more polite sounding messages. You don't have to swear and be an ass to still come across as an unpleasant person.

This is true, but closet incivility isn't really that much of an issue. It is easier to ignore than the in your face kinds of incivility. And being condescending or patronizing is its own topic, I think, as is hypocrisy, and isn't really what I mean by incivility.

The incivility I think about in this context, is the unkind remark, the baiting to justify unkind remarks, the rudeness or visible hostility demonstrated, the effort to embarrass or belittle or demean or personally destroy others. Why do people do that?

 

[Wake]

What I don't understand are those people who seem to make it their mission in life to be rude, unpleasant, disruptive, insulting, or whatever method they choose to make somebody's life miserable. What do they get out of that? How does anybody feel better about themselves when they behave that way?

Eh, this is a touchy issue, and I'm trying to be as level-headed and general as possible.

If you routinely hurt others, it may make you feel good for a while, but over time it will eventually eat at you. Then you will want to feel better again, but will probably repeat the cycle. It's a vicious one. By making others feel miserable, you become as miserable as them or worse, especially when your conscience peeks out from behind the clouds.

 

[BlueGin]

But the bottom line is: how do you get people to practice who are determined to be uncivil?

You can't. As with our special patients, we can't forcefully make them do things that are good for them. The sad part is that those brain-damaged patients have an excuse.

I've worked enough with people with Tourette Syndrome and the mentally challenged as well as the autistic and aspergers folks to be extremely tolerant of those dealing with such issues. I don't get concerned with 'antisocial' behavior that sometimes accompanies these issues. I can also understand those dealing with post traumatic syndromes and other reactionary disabilities and can easily dismiss most misbehaviors as unimportant.

What I don't understand are those people who seem to make it their mission in life to be rude, unpleasant, disruptive, insulting, or whatever method they choose to make somebody's life miserable. What do they get out of that? How does anybody feel better about themselves when they behave that way?

What do they get out if it? Attention and sometimes their way. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. Once they learn it works they keep doing it.

 

[Foxfyre]

People who are determined to be rude, insulting, and unpleasant are best ignored. Trying to figure out why people are assholes on the internet is an exercise in futility. Most likely they are insecure and it makes them feel better about themselves.

But when they interject themselves into your business, your life, your project, your recreation time, or whatever, when you have to work with them or cooperate with them, or deal with them doing business, you can't really ignore them.

 

[Mertex]

So the innocent pays the price and those initiating and perpetuating the incivility can high five each other and celebrate their victory.

That about sums it up perfectly.
The only way to stop bullies is to lock them up where they get the same treatment from other bullies....or lock them out where people can live in peace. Or, like that guy did that sun devil spoke about...stop them from breathing (which then means the innocent ones STILL have to pay for the crime).

Surely you're not serious about locking them up? We already have people locked up for insignificant violations.....I can think of better ways to use our tax dollars.

And besides, many of the people that claim to hate incivility are often uncivil themselves at one time or another. On this board, I try to respond to people in a civil manner to those who respond to my posts in a civil manner, even if we are on opposite sides of the issue, and if they remain civil, I remain civil and never utter an insult at them, but too often, many don't like controversy and will respond back to me in an uncivil manner calling me names and using vulgarity, and I admit, I will most certainly respond back to them in the same manner.

It is different though, on political/chat boards than in real life. In real life you can just avoid those that are uncivil...I don't believe in duking it out like those two women did at Walmart, that is totally trailer-trash like. Even when people (friends, acquaintances or even strangers) bring up issues that we don't agree on, you don't call them stupid or moron, you give your reasons for differing in opinion and if they start getting nasty, you just tell them you won't argue with them and remove yourself from their presence. We do have "freedom of speech" and everyone is entitled to their opinion, doesn't mean that I have to agree with them or start a fight with them because I don't.

 

[Foxfyre]

But the problem is Mertex, as was described in the OP, you can avoid the uncivil on a message board by simply not participating on the message board. In the grand scheme of things, no big loss.

But in real life, incivility is much more difficult to avoid when it is exhibited by your neighbors, people you must share the roadways with, in the work place, at church, or other places that are not practical to avoid.

I am not sure I had fully identified all my motives for starting this thread, but after a few days here, I think that is where I was most likely coming from--the desire for a more civil existence that used to be commonplace almost everywhere. And how do we get back to that?

 

[ChrisL]

What I don't understand are those people who seem to make it their mission in life to be rude, unpleasant, disruptive, insulting, or whatever method they choose to make somebody's life miserable. What do they get out of that? How does anybody feel better about themselves when they behave that way?

Eh, this is a touchy issue, and I'm trying to be as level-headed and general as possible.

If you routinely hurt others, it may make you feel good for a while, but over time it will eventually eat at you. Then you will want to feel better again, but will probably repeat the cycle. It's a vicious one. By making others feel miserable, you become as miserable as them or worse, especially when your conscience peeks out from behind the clouds.

Nobody is "level headed" all the time. NOBODY. Everyone can be mean at times. We are emotional creatures and, whether or not some of us want to admit it, we are ruled by emotions in most instances. They play a HUGE role in everything we do.

 

[BlueGin]

What prompts people to do this?

Low self esteem IMO.

In essence bullies suffer from low self esteem because they lack the ability to rise any higher. Without that option they try to bring others down to their own level instead.

Should USMB (and other forums, venues, and groups) institute hard fast rules to prevent it such as the rules on this thread? Why or why not?

Given that USMB did exactly that in hindsight I agree that it was the right decision. The amount of time and effort that was wasted trying to manage the incivility from the bullying was detracting from the overall experience.

So yes, I would agree that putting in place hard and fast rules that deal with bullying and incivility do work. Have they stopped all of the incivility? Nope, and it is probably impossible without infringing on freedom of speech. But it can be "discouraged" and in that regard USMB has an effective tool that does exactly that, it discourages those that are incapable of behaving in a civilized manner.

So the answer is all of the above. Use both hard and soft approaches.

Admittedly eliminating rep and the institution of the CDZ, the Lounge, the SDZ, and efforts to keep the political threads more on topic have been appreciated by those who are not among the uncivil 'cults'. But elsewhere, on any threads that lend themselves to more provocative topics, I am frankly seeing so little civility that serious discussion of those topics has become difficult to accomplish.

I'm just not seeing it getting any better and if anything it has become worse. Are all those who participate in the insult fest, who organize pile ons targeting certain individuals, who instigate and relish the food fights all suffering from low self esteem?

Do all the politicos and talking heads and pundits and social media people et al participating in the uncivil rhetoric all suffer from low self esteem?

It is getting worse because USMB allows the absolute dregs of life to post an endless stream of hateful, racist, bigoted threads. And you really think that people of good will are going to put up with that utter crap?

No way.

They probably view it like celebs and media personnel do. Bad press is the same as good press as long as you are getting exposure. In this case... Post count and advertising.

 

[Mertex]

In essence if you start responding to vulgarities with your own vulgarities you have surrendered the high ground and descended to their level which makes you no better than them IMO.

That's true, but sometimes it just feels good to dish the same dirt back at them, and no, I don't feel like I have descended to their level because I never initiate the insults and vulgarity, I just don't like that some will claim they have "won" and have intimidated you just because you didn't respond back or put them on ignore....I know who I am in real life, and these anonymous "nobodys" that hurl nastiness don't get to change or define who I am.

 

[Foxfyre]

What I don't understand are those people who seem to make it their mission in life to be rude, unpleasant, disruptive, insulting, or whatever method they choose to make somebody's life miserable. What do they get out of that? How does anybody feel better about themselves when they behave that way?

Eh, this is a touchy issue, and I'm trying to be as level-headed and general as possible.

If you routinely hurt others, it may make you feel good for a while, but over time it will eventually eat at you. Then you will want to feel better again, but will probably repeat the cycle. It's a vicious one. By making others feel miserable, you become as miserable as them or worse, especially when your conscience peeks out from behind the clouds.

Nobody is "level headed" all the time. NOBODY. Everyone can be mean at times. We are emotional creatures and, whether or not some of us want to admit it, we are ruled by emotions in most instances. They play a HUGE role in everything we do.

This is for sure. Everybody has those moments we really would like to take back. Lord knows I have made posts or comments in the heat of a spirited discussion that I very much regretted later. That is true of message boards and in real life.

But back when good manners required that people not act out or speak out in insulting or uncivil ways, it felt unnatural to most people when they did that. It was uncomfortable. And that is what restrained most people from doing it most of the time. And when they did do it, they were far more likely to apologize.

I think now some people feel uncomfortable or awkward or whatever when they are pleasant, use polite language, or express kindness or consideration. And that is a little scary to me.

 

[ChrisL]

What I don't understand are those people who seem to make it their mission in life to be rude, unpleasant, disruptive, insulting, or whatever method they choose to make somebody's life miserable. What do they get out of that? How does anybody feel better about themselves when they behave that way?

Eh, this is a touchy issue, and I'm trying to be as level-headed and general as possible.

If you routinely hurt others, it may make you feel good for a while, but over time it will eventually eat at you. Then you will want to feel better again, but will probably repeat the cycle. It's a vicious one. By making others feel miserable, you become as miserable as them or worse, especially when your conscience peeks out from behind the clouds.

Nobody is "level headed" all the time. NOBODY. Everyone can be mean at times. We are emotional creatures and, whether or not some of us want to admit it, we are ruled by emotions in most instances. They play a HUGE role in everything we do.

This is for sure. Everybody has those moments we really would like to take back. Lord knows I have made posts or comments in the heat of a spirited discussion that I very much regretted later. That is true of message boards and in real life.

But back when good manners required that people not act out or speak out in insulting ways, it felt unnatural to most people when they did that. It was uncomfortable. And that is what restrained most people from doing it most of the time.

I think now some people feel uncomfortable or awkward or whatever when they are pleasant, use polite language, or express kindness or consideration. And that is a little scary to me.

I can't say but I would agree that being rude and impolite is probably much more acceptable to my generation and younger. However, I must admit to being surprised by the number of "older" people who are quite rude and potty mouths too. You know, the kind that you would think would be more "grandfather" or "grandmother" like in behavior. I guess I just always assumed that most older people were like my grandparents. I think the worst cuss word I've ever heard my grandfather say was "hell" and my grandmother, when she gets angry, will say, "I'm so mad, I could just spit!"