Zone1 Free Will or Not - That is the (or a) question

Do you believe in Free Will, or That Everything is Externally Controlled?

  • External or genetic control over actions

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  • Others, neither and in between, post away!

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  • Total voters
    4

JBG

Liberal democrat
Jan 8, 2012
543
365
868
New York City area
Free will is a frequent topic of philosophical and religious discussion. Interestingly, many people who consider themselves "educated" or in the intelligentsia deny or minimize the existence of free will. Striking examples are Demian by Hermann Hesse, written in 1919 or thereabouts, and the more recent Gray Matters: A Biography of Brain Surgery by Theodore H. Schwartz, written in 2024. Both books, and similar discussions by "enlightened" spiritual leaders twist themselves with pretzel logic to avoid the obvious conclusion that many, if not all, human actions are decided by people themselves. This is an excerpt from Demain:
Demian by Herman Hesse said:
"What is all this about the will?" I asked. "On the one hand, you say our will isn't free. Then again you say we only need to concentrate our will firmly on some end in order to achieve it. It doesn't make sense. If I'm not master of my own will, then I'm in no position to direct it as I please."

He patted me on the back as he always did when he was pleased with me. "Good that you ask," he said, laughing. "You should always ask, always have doubts....But we, too, are confined to a relatively narrow compass which we cannot break out of. If I imagined that I wanted under all circumstances to get to the North Pole, to achieve it I would have to desire it strongly enough so that my whole was being ruled by it. Once that is the case, once you have tried something that you have been ordered to do from within yourself, then you'll be able to accomplish it, then you can harness your will to it like an obedient nag....
But at that time in the fall when I was resolved to move away from my seat in the front row, it wasn't difficult at all. Suddenly there was someone whose name preceded mine in the alphabet and who had been away sick until then and since someone had to make room for him it was me of course because my will was ready to seize the opportunity at once." "Yes," I said. "I too felt odd at that time. From the moment that we began to take an interest in each other you moved closer and closer to me. But how did that happen? You did not sit next to me right away, first you sat for a while in the bench in front of me. How did you manage to switch once more?

"It was like this: I didn't know myself exactly where I wanted to sit but I wanted to shift from my seat in the front row. I only knew that I wanted to sit farther to the back. It was my will to come to sit next to you but I hadn't become conscious of it as yet. At the same time your will accorded with mine and helped me. Only when I found myself sitting in front of you did I realize that my wish was only half fulfilled and that my sole aim was to sit next to you.”
These are two excerpts from the very current book about neurosurgery, Gray Matters:
Gray Matters: A Biography of Brain Surgery by Theodore H. Schwartz said:
That we then retroactively fabricate stories to justify our behaviors is also unnerving, since it means that we may be constantly fooling ourselves into believing that our behaviors are self-motivated and that we have free will. Yet this model of brain organization appears to be one of its most fundamental organizing principles. Having been raised in a psychoanalytic household, aware of the invisible powers of what Freud described as the unconscious mind, I am perhaps less shocked than most by all of this.....
These findings, together with Fried's (sic, probably was "Freud's"), demonstrate the existence of a network of modules consisting of the anterior cingulate, the SMA, and part of the parietal lobe that somehow act in unison to create not only the decision to act but also the sense that the action was intended in the first place. Just as brain stimulation in one location can create an overwhelming certainty that God exists, in another location it can create a false sense of free will.
Both Dr. Schwartz and Mr. Hesse are unwilling to follow Occam's Razor; that the most obvious solution is often correct. Even if, as Dr. Schwartz believes, the interaction of "a network of modules consisting of the anterior cingulate, the SMA, and part of the parietal lobe" are what directly cause a person to take action, I consider it most likely that the human decision-making drove the brain's activities rather than the other way around.
A liberal society cannot operate without the assumption of their being free will. People must be held accountable for, or given credit for their actions. The people who deny or minimize free will are often people who believe that "the devil made me do it" or, in more enlightened terms, everything is determined by genetics or at the very least upbringing. At the extreme, some don't believe that murderers belong in jail since, they believe, then had no ability to conform their actions to society.

I welcome other views.
 
Free will is a frequent topic of philosophical and religious discussion. Interestingly, many people who consider themselves "educated" or in the intelligentsia deny or minimize the existence of free will. Striking examples are Demian by Hermann Hesse, written in 1919 or thereabouts, and the more recent Gray Matters: A Biography of Brain Surgery by Theodore H. Schwartz, written in 2024. Both books, and similar discussions by "enlightened" spiritual leaders twist themselves with pretzel logic to avoid the obvious conclusion that many, if not all, human actions are decided by people themselves. This is an excerpt from Demain:
These are two excerpts from the very current book about neurosurgery, Gray Matters:

Both Dr. Schwartz and Mr. Hesse are unwilling to follow Occam's Razor; that the most obvious solution is often correct. Even if, as Dr. Schwartz believes, the interaction of "a network of modules consisting of the anterior cingulate, the SMA, and part of the parietal lobe" are what directly cause a person to take action, I consider it most likely that the human decision-making drove the brain's activities rather than the other way around.
A liberal society cannot operate without the assumption of their being free will. People must be held accountable for, or given credit for their actions. The people who deny or minimize free will are often people who believe that "the devil made me do it" or, in more enlightened terms, everything is determined by genetics or at the very least upbringing. At the extreme, some don't believe that murderers belong in jail since, they believe, then had no ability to conform their actions to society.

I welcome other views.


Yes humans have free will.

You can either accept God and his laws, or reject them and love your sins more than God.

Of course that choice has consequences.
 
Free will is a frequent topic of philosophical and religious discussion. Interestingly, many people who consider themselves "educated" or in the intelligentsia deny or minimize the existence of free will. Striking examples are Demian by Hermann Hesse, written in 1919 or thereabouts, and the more recent Gray Matters: A Biography of Brain Surgery by Theodore H. Schwartz, written in 2024. Both books, and similar discussions by "enlightened" spiritual leaders twist themselves with pretzel logic to avoid the obvious conclusion that many, if not all, human actions are decided by people themselves. This is an excerpt from Demain:
These are two excerpts from the very current book about neurosurgery, Gray Matters:

Both Dr. Schwartz and Mr. Hesse are unwilling to follow Occam's Razor; that the most obvious solution is often correct. Even if, as Dr. Schwartz believes, the interaction of "a network of modules consisting of the anterior cingulate, the SMA, and part of the parietal lobe" are what directly cause a person to take action, I consider it most likely that the human decision-making drove the brain's activities rather than the other way around.
A liberal society cannot operate without the assumption of their being free will. People must be held accountable for, or given credit for their actions. The people who deny or minimize free will are often people who believe that "the devil made me do it" or, in more enlightened terms, everything is determined by genetics or at the very least upbringing. At the extreme, some don't believe that murderers belong in jail since, they believe, then had no ability to conform their actions to society.

I welcome other views.
The term "Liberal" means something different today than yesterday. Liberal today refers to progressivism which is Marxism that denies free will. I actually believe the term free will is incorrect. It's really free moral agency. The freedom to choose good or evil. That's what Adam and Eve gained and we don't have to study brains to know this. To choose good or evil, the Light of Christ is given (Not the same as the Holy Ghost). You can say it's your conscience. Some people are unable to utilized this for some reason. Something happened to them to cut off the Light. Abuse is a typical method to create sociopaths.
 
Even though outside influences can affect and guide a person's thinking as in being isolated in a cult with no outside influences once the outside influences are introduced then the brain starts evaluating the new information and makes independent decisions. So I side with Freewill. In my Religion there is the debate over predestination or freewill. If God is in control of all things as in who goes to heaven or hell is Free will possible? We are Gods children, and like a Father gives us instructions, but my belief is it is up to us to accept it or discard it. Scripture states that God wants all of us to be saved.
If True, is it a case for God not being Omnipotent? No, because it is God that allows us that choice.
 
You can either accept God and his laws, or reject them

Not only God and His laws...but you can accept or reject any idea.

You can be persuaded or manipulated...but I still believe at the end of the day you are the one making the decisions for yourself.

So yes...we have free will!
 
I didn't create this, but I will share it.

Moreover, throughout Scripture it is made clear that it is God who chooses us, not the other way around: “many are called, but few are chosen” (Mt 22:14); “you did not choose me but I chose you” (Jn 15:16; maybe this just meant the Apostles, but what happened to their alleged free will?); “as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with compassion…” (Col 3:12); “for we know, brothers and sisters beloved by God, that he has chosen you” (1 Thes 1:4); “we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation…” (2 Thes 2:13); “to the exiles of the Dispersion […] who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood” (1 Pt 1:1-3); and so on.

  1. Why do Jesus and Paul say that we are “slaves to sin” (Jn 8:34; Rom 6:15-20, 7:14-25)? And that when God’s grace liberates us from the dominion of sin, that we are “freed from sin and enslaved to God” (Rom 6:22)? And “I can will what is right, but I cannot do it […] if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me” (Rom 7:14-25)?; and “it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, ‘I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.’ So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses” (Rom 9:16-18)?; and “You will say to me then, ‘Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?’ But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God?” (Rom 9:19-20)?
  2. How is it possible for you to freely decline or choose Christ if, rather, “God chose you as the first fruits for salvation” (2 Thes 2:13), a decision made “before the foundation of the world” (Eph 1:4)? Would that not require the ability to defy the predestination (cf. Rom 8:28-30) imposed on the world by God?
 
The Bible says that NOBODY can choose to follow Jesus unless God the Father permits them to do so.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 11:25
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

John 6:44
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65
65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father".
 
God knows that for mankind to become good beings, they need to learn to choose in and of themselves to be good. If you force a being to be good, they are not truly good in and of themselves. Free will is critical to God's plan of happiness.
 
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If each individual fate is predestined then what is the purpose of evangelism?

Let's take Mary, Joseph, the apostles, and some others. They were likely "predestined" or blessed by God to serve his purposes. God "drafted" them (so to speak) because he knew that they would willingly choose to do his will. So in that sense they were "predestined" but they themselves ultimately made their own choices.
 
God knows that for mankind to become good beings, they need to learn to choose in and of themselves to be good. If you force a being to be good, they are not truly good in and of themselves. Free will is critical to God's plan of happiness.

Well said. Ultimately our choice to follow Jesus is up to us.
 
The term "Liberal" means something different today than yesterday. Liberal today refers to progressivism which is Marxism that denies free will. I actually believe the term free will is incorrect. It's really free moral agency. The freedom to choose good or evil. That's what Adam and Eve gained and we don't have to study brains to know this. To choose good or evil, the Light of Christ is given (Not the same as the Holy Ghost). You can say it's your conscience. Some people are unable to utilized this for some reason. Something happened to them to cut off the Light. Abuse is a typical method to create sociopaths.
I meant "liberal" in the classic sense.
 
Whether we are “free” enough to make autonomous decisions is not a simple yes/no matter. It depends upon many factors: how powerfully certain genetic predispositions may be influencing us, how strongly early conditioning has constrained us, how much our will has been able, or allowed, to develop, how much self-awareness has blossomed into a desire to exploit one’s freedom, and much more.
 
hopefully there are many that have not been spoiled by the desert bibles and live their lives accordingly choosing good over evil as the natural means for attaining heaven on earth.

- and triumph over evil for admission to the everlasting.
 
...many, if not all, human actions are decided by people themselves.
Isn't that exactly what free will is supposed to be? People choosing to do good or choosing not to do good. It's not virtuous if one is forced to be virtuous. They have to choose that for themselves.
 

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