Debate Now Incivility

[Wake]

What I don't understand are those people who seem to make it their mission in life to be rude, unpleasant, disruptive, insulting, or whatever method they choose to make somebody's life miserable. What do they get out of that? How does anybody feel better about themselves when they behave that way?

Eh, this is a touchy issue, and I'm trying to be as level-headed and general as possible.

If you routinely hurt others, it may make you feel good for a while, but over time it will eventually eat at you. Then you will want to feel better again, but will probably repeat the cycle. It's a vicious one. By making others feel miserable, you become as miserable as them or worse, especially when your conscience peeks out from behind the clouds.

Nobody is "level headed" all the time. NOBODY. Everyone can be mean at times. We are emotional creatures and, whether or not some of us want to admit it, we are ruled by emotions in most instances. They play a HUGE role in everything we do.

Please point where it was said that someone is level-headed all of the time. It is true that we can let our emotions get the best of us and say and do terrible things in our anger, our envy, and more. That is just one reason why some are uncivil towards others. Who is ruled by emotions and how often varies based on the individual. Those who knowingly are dishonest and wicked towards others is one issue I do address, because it is so toxic and contagious.

A lot of the statements and ideas shared I abhor, and I view them to be foolish and disagreeable. That doesn't give me the right to treat those people terribly. Annoying? Sure. It's better to have some self-control, and generally ignore those who don't.

 

[Foxfyre]

What I don't understand are those people who seem to make it their mission in life to be rude, unpleasant, disruptive, insulting, or whatever method they choose to make somebody's life miserable. What do they get out of that? How does anybody feel better about themselves when they behave that way?

Eh, this is a touchy issue, and I'm trying to be as level-headed and general as possible.

If you routinely hurt others, it may make you feel good for a while, but over time it will eventually eat at you. Then you will want to feel better again, but will probably repeat the cycle. It's a vicious one. By making others feel miserable, you become as miserable as them or worse, especially when your conscience peeks out from behind the clouds.

Nobody is "level headed" all the time. NOBODY. Everyone can be mean at times. We are emotional creatures and, whether or not some of us want to admit it, we are ruled by emotions in most instances. They play a HUGE role in everything we do.

This is for sure. Everybody has those moments we really would like to take back. Lord knows I have made posts or comments in the heat of a spirited discussion that I very much regretted later. That is true of message boards and in real life.

But back when good manners required that people not act out or speak out in insulting ways, it felt unnatural to most people when they did that. It was uncomfortable. And that is what restrained most people from doing it most of the time.

I think now some people feel uncomfortable or awkward or whatever when they are pleasant, use polite language, or express kindness or consideration. And that is a little scary to me.

I can't say but I would agree that being rude and impolite is probably much more acceptable to my generation and younger. However, I must admit to being surprised by the number of "older" people who are quite rude and potty mouths too. You know, the kind that you would think would be more "grandfather" or "grandmother" like in behavior. I guess I just always assumed that most older people were like my grandparents. I think the worst cuss word I've ever heard my grandfather say was "hell" and my grandmother, when she gets angry, will say, "I'm so mad, I could just spit!"

Well I am among that 'older' group and sometimes there is just no other word that works than the "S" word or even the "F" word. So I'll have to take my lumps with everybody else there.

But maybe thinking about the nature vs nurture concept from the men vs women thread, maybe your generation is more uncivil because you were taught and influenced by ours? As expressed in the OP, the trend goes back decades and has been increasingly manifesting itself and getting worse the entire time until it is now rampant almost everywhere. It pervades every aspect of our common lives together.

And personally, I don't think it is at all constructive and is not good for us.

 

[Foxfyre]

What I don't understand are those people who seem to make it their mission in life to be rude, unpleasant, disruptive, insulting, or whatever method they choose to make somebody's life miserable. What do they get out of that? How does anybody feel better about themselves when they behave that way?

Eh, this is a touchy issue, and I'm trying to be as level-headed and general as possible.

If you routinely hurt others, it may make you feel good for a while, but over time it will eventually eat at you. Then you will want to feel better again, but will probably repeat the cycle. It's a vicious one. By making others feel miserable, you become as miserable as them or worse, especially when your conscience peeks out from behind the clouds.

Nobody is "level headed" all the time. NOBODY. Everyone can be mean at times. We are emotional creatures and, whether or not some of us want to admit it, we are ruled by emotions in most instances. They play a HUGE role in everything we do.

Please point where it was said that someone is level-headed all of the time. It is true that we can let our emotions get the best of us and say and do terrible things in our anger, our envy, and more. That is just one reason why some are uncivil towards others. Who is ruled by emotions and how often varies based on the individual. Those who knowingly are dishonest and wicked towards others is one issue I do address, because it is so toxic and contagious.

A lot of the statements and ideas shared I abhor, and I view them to be foolish and disagreeable. That doesn't give me the right to treat those people terribly. Annoying? Sure. It's better to have some self-control, and generally ignore those who don't.

I think Chris was just making a personal observation that was responding to something that inspired the thought. I didn't take it that she was saying anybody has said that.

That is one of the problems with this medium as somebody already mentioned--we don't have benefit of tone of voice, facial expression, body language, etc. to punctuate our communications and clarify our intent.

It is tedious to preface each statement with: "That reminded me of. . .." or "that brings to mind. . ." or some such qualifier when responding to a specific post. And it makes it really easy to misconstrue a statement as a criticism of or misinterpretation of what has been posted.
It is sometimes missed that a subsequent comment is just adding to the discussion rather than commenting on what has already been said.

Which of course contributes to some of the incivility on a message board.

 

[ChrisL]

What I don't understand are those people who seem to make it their mission in life to be rude, unpleasant, disruptive, insulting, or whatever method they choose to make somebody's life miserable. What do they get out of that? How does anybody feel better about themselves when they behave that way?

Eh, this is a touchy issue, and I'm trying to be as level-headed and general as possible.

If you routinely hurt others, it may make you feel good for a while, but over time it will eventually eat at you. Then you will want to feel better again, but will probably repeat the cycle. It's a vicious one. By making others feel miserable, you become as miserable as them or worse, especially when your conscience peeks out from behind the clouds.

Nobody is "level headed" all the time. NOBODY. Everyone can be mean at times. We are emotional creatures and, whether or not some of us want to admit it, we are ruled by emotions in most instances. They play a HUGE role in everything we do.

Please point where it was said that someone is level-headed all of the time. It is true that we can let our emotions get the best of us and say and do terrible things in our anger, our envy, and more. That is just one reason why some are uncivil towards others. Who is ruled by emotions and how often varies based on the individual. Those who knowingly are dishonest and wicked towards others is one issue I do address, because it is so toxic and contagious.

A lot of the statements and ideas shared I abhor, and I view them to be foolish and disagreeable. That doesn't give me the right to treat those people terribly. Annoying? Sure. It's better to have some self-control, and generally ignore those who don't.

I think Chris was just making a personal observation that was responding to something that inspired the thought. I didn't take it that she was saying anybody has said that.

That is one of the problems with this medium as somebody already mentioned--we don't have benefit of tone of voice, facial expression, body language, etc. to punctuate our communications and clarify our intent.

It is tedious to preface each statement with: "That reminded me of. . .." or "that brings to mind. . ." or some such qualifier when responding to a specific post. And it makes it really easy to misconstrue a statement as a criticism of or misinterpretation of what has been posted.
It is sometimes missed that a subsequent comment is just adding to the discussion rather than commenting on what has already been said.

Which of course contribute to some of the incivility on a message board.

Exactly. I was making the point that no matter how much "control" you try to exert over your emotions, there are going to be times when you don't win.

 

[Derideo_Te]

In essence if you start responding to vulgarities with your own vulgarities you have surrendered the high ground and descended to their level which makes you no better than them IMO.

That's true, but sometimes it just feels good to dish the same dirt back at them, and no, I don't feel like I have descended to their level because I never initiate the insults and vulgarity, I just don't like that some will claim they have "won" and have intimidated you just because you didn't respond back or put them on ignore....I know who I am in real life, and these anonymous "nobodys" that hurl nastiness don't get to change or define who I am.

It is perfectly reasonable to put them in their place without resorting to the same level of vulgarities that they are using. Just pointing out that they have done so is a tacit admission of defeat on their part is sufficient IMO.

 

[ChrisL]

This venue makes it difficult. It's discussing politics, religion and all kinds of other controversial subject matter. There are bound to be heated disagreements and sometimes cuss words. I hate to sound like a cliche, but my grandfather used to say that if you want to keep your friends then never discuss politics or religion!

 

[Mertex]

But the problem is Mertex, as was described in the OP, you can avoid the uncivil on a message board by simply not participating on the message board. In the grand scheme of things, no big loss.

That is true, but there are many good people who want to actually discuss the issues civilly and by not participating on the message board you are depriving yourself of conversing with those people. I can make a mental note of who the nasties are, those who aren't able to respond civilly and I won't go out of my way to engage them, but often they respond to me when I'm debating with someone else and just utter insults.......no way that I'm going to let their nonsense run me off the board or cause me to not want to be here, so dishing it back to them at least gives me the satisfaction that they didn't bully me.

But in real life, incivility is much more difficult to avoid when it is exhibited by your neighbors, people you must share the roadways with, in the work place, at church, or other places that are not practical to avoid.

I hear you........I deal with it every day of my life. For the most part, in real life, those that know me well, know my political affiliation and religious beliefs, and my true friends will not bring up controversial issues because they know that we will not be agreeing on it. On FB some of my "friends" share political ads/information that they agree with, which I don't agree with, but I have learned to just overlook it as everyone is entitled to believe as they please. I once responded to such a post with my controversial point of view and all it got me was a bunch of angry retorts from that "friend's" friends. I also don't treat FB like I do a political board....on FB we are not anonymous. I realize that everyone has different opinions and even though we agree on some things, it would be foolish to believe that we can agree on all things. The people on FB who are my "friends" - some I know well, some are just acquaintances, but since I don't know everything about each of them I most certainly respect that and would not ever make assumptions that they would all agree with me, so I refrain from posting controversial issues. Not all of them do that, though, and those who get tired of their messages, can either ignore them or unfriend them....it's that easy.

I am not sure I had fully identified all my motives for starting this thread, but after a few days here, I think that is where I was most likely coming from--the desire for a more civil existence that used to be commonplace almost everywhere. And how do we get back to that?

I don't know how we got to where we are at.....and I don't think there is any hope of getting back to where we were (as far as being more civil to each other) but I believe it is just part of our world evolving. Technology has so changed our life so much, we are in contact with way many more people than we were able to decades back....and perhaps that is the reason. We are in touch with the opinions of so many people, many whom we don't agree with and it has created a deep seated anger among many. That's just my opinion though, and I wouldn't want to give up our technology just to gain more civility.

 

[Statistikhengst]

But the problem is Mertex, as was described in the OP, you can avoid the uncivil on a message board by simply not participating on the message board. In the grand scheme of things, no big loss.

But in real life, incivility is much more difficult to avoid when it is exhibited by your neighbors, people you must share the roadways with, in the work place, at church, or other places that are not practical to avoid.

I am not sure I had fully identified all my motives for starting this thread, but after a few days here, I think that is where I was most likely coming from--the desire for a more civil existence that used to be commonplace almost everywhere. And how do we get back to that?

Now, that is a very, very good goal. I concur with you.

 

[Foxfyre]

But the problem is Mertex, as was described in the OP, you can avoid the uncivil on a message board by simply not participating on the message board. In the grand scheme of things, no big loss.

That is true, but there are many good people who want to actually discuss the issues civilly and by not participating on the message board you are depriving yourself of conversing with those people. I can make a mental note of who the nasties are, those who aren't able to respond civilly and I won't go out of my way to engage them, but often they respond to me when I'm debating with someone else and just utter insults.......no way that I'm going to let their nonsense run me off the board or cause me to not want to be here, so dishing it back to them at least gives me the satisfaction that they didn't bully me.

But in real life, incivility is much more difficult to avoid when it is exhibited by your neighbors, people you must share the roadways with, in the work place, at church, or other places that are not practical to avoid.

I hear you........I deal with it every day of my life. For the most part, in real life, those that know me well, know my political affiliation and religious beliefs, and my true friends will not bring up controversial issues because they know that we will not be agreeing on it. On FB some of my "friends" share political ads/information that they agree with, which I don't agree with, but I have learned to just overlook it as everyone is entitled to believe as they please. I once responded to such a post with my controversial point of view and all it got me was a bunch of angry retorts from that "friend's" friends. I also don't treat FB like I do a political board....on FB we are not anonymous. I realize that everyone has different opinions and even though we agree on some things, it would be foolish to believe that we can agree on all things. The people on FB who are my "friends" - some I know well, some are just acquaintances, but since I don't know everything about each of them I most certainly respect that and would not ever make assumptions that they would all agree with me, so I refrain from posting controversial issues. Not all of them do that, though, and those who get tired of their messages, can either ignore them or unfriend them....it's that easy.

I am not sure I had fully identified all my motives for starting this thread, but after a few days here, I think that is where I was most likely coming from--the desire for a more civil existence that used to be commonplace almost everywhere. And how do we get back to that?

I don't know how we got to where we are at.....and I don't think there is any hope of getting back to where we were (as far as being more civil to each other) but I believe it is just part of our world evolving. Technology has so changed our life so much, we are in contact with way many more people than we were able to decades back....and perhaps that is the reason. We are in touch with the opinions of so many people, many whom we don't agree with and it has created a deep seated anger among many. That's just my opinion though, and I wouldn't want to give up our technology just to gain more civility.

We are pretty much on the same page actually. The reason I'm still here at USMB is that the positives have outweighed the negatives so far. When that is no longer the case, I will no longer be here.

And like you on FB, I don't 'like' or comment on the political postings whether or not they reflect my personal views--and I have friends and family who do post them--but I prefer to keep FB neutral and controversy free and for almost all of us, it has been a very positive experience. I have never had the experience of somebody saying something unkind or antagonistic to me on FB nor have I ever done that to anybody else. And I'm pretty sure that at least a huge majority of those on my friends' list pretty much can say the same. We also keep our daily lives politics free unless we are very certain we are speaking with people of like views as ourselves and there it is safe to vent a bit.

Where I will quarrel with you a bit is I refuse to believe we can't return to more civil society as the norm. But I do have 'eternal optimist' under my user name. I hope I'm the one who is right about that and hope you are the one who is wrong. I wish I was more secure in my conviction about that though.

 

[ChrisL]

But the problem is Mertex, as was described in the OP, you can avoid the uncivil on a message board by simply not participating on the message board. In the grand scheme of things, no big loss.

That is true, but there are many good people who want to actually discuss the issues civilly and by not participating on the message board you are depriving yourself of conversing with those people. I can make a mental note of who the nasties are, those who aren't able to respond civilly and I won't go out of my way to engage them, but often they respond to me when I'm debating with someone else and just utter insults.......no way that I'm going to let their nonsense run me off the board or cause me to not want to be here, so dishing it back to them at least gives me the satisfaction that they didn't bully me.

But in real life, incivility is much more difficult to avoid when it is exhibited by your neighbors, people you must share the roadways with, in the work place, at church, or other places that are not practical to avoid.

I hear you........I deal with it every day of my life. For the most part, in real life, those that know me well, know my political affiliation and religious beliefs, and my true friends will not bring up controversial issues because they know that we will not be agreeing on it. On FB some of my "friends" share political ads/information that they agree with, which I don't agree with, but I have learned to just overlook it as everyone is entitled to believe as they please. I once responded to such a post with my controversial point of view and all it got me was a bunch of angry retorts from that "friend's" friends. I also don't treat FB like I do a political board....on FB we are not anonymous. I realize that everyone has different opinions and even though we agree on some things, it would be foolish to believe that we can agree on all things. The people on FB who are my "friends" - some I know well, some are just acquaintances, but since I don't know everything about each of them I most certainly respect that and would not ever make assumptions that they would all agree with me, so I refrain from posting controversial issues. Not all of them do that, though, and those who get tired of their messages, can either ignore them or unfriend them....it's that easy.

I am not sure I had fully identified all my motives for starting this thread, but after a few days here, I think that is where I was most likely coming from--the desire for a more civil existence that used to be commonplace almost everywhere. And how do we get back to that?

I don't know how we got to where we are at.....and I don't think there is any hope of getting back to where we were (as far as being more civil to each other) but I believe it is just part of our world evolving. Technology has so changed our life so much, we are in contact with way many more people than we were able to decades back....and perhaps that is the reason. We are in touch with the opinions of so many people, many whom we don't agree with and it has created a deep seated anger among many. That's just my opinion though, and I wouldn't want to give up our technology just to gain more civility.

We are pretty much on the same page actually. The reason I'm still here at USMB is that the positives have outweighed the negatives so far. When that is no longer the case, I will no longer be here.

And like you on FB, I don't 'like' or comment on the political postings whether or not they reflect my personal views--and I have friends and family who do post them--but I prefer to keep FB neutral and controversy free and for almost all of us, it has been a very positive experience. I have never had the experience of somebody saying something unkind or antagonistic to me on FB nor have I ever done that to anybody else. And I'm pretty sure that at least a huge majority of those on my friends' list pretty much can say the same. We also keep our daily lives politics free unless we are very certain we are speaking with people of like views as ourselves and there it is safe to vent a bit.

Where I will quarrel with you a bit is I refuse to believe we can't return to more civil society as the norm. But I do have 'eternal optimist' under my user name. I hope I'm the one who is right about that and hope you are the one who is wrong. I wish I was more secure in my conviction about that though.

Here is something to think about, maybe "back in the day" people were not rude to your face, but I'll bet they had some things to say behind your back. At least today, they will say it to your face in some cases, so which would you prefer?

 

[Foxfyre]

This venue makes it difficult. It's discussing politics, religion and all kinds of other controversial subject matter. There are bound to be heated disagreements and sometimes cuss words. I hate to sound like a cliche, but my grandfather used to say that if you want to keep your friends then never discuss politics or religion!

I agree with your grandfather that not discussing politics or religion with your friends, except for those you know very very well and can discuss anything, is a really good policy.

Which is why a message board is sometimes our only consistent venue for being able to express our views in such matters and/or test our opinions and convictions about things. I figure if my beliefs won't hold up under scrutiny and/or I cannot defend them, they aren't worth having.

But. . .I had hopes for the SDZ that we would be able to test our ideas and concepts without people making it personal and/or uncivil. It is because people are attacked or criticized personally for expressing an opinion that creates the incivility.

What are our chances that people can learn how to attack the opinion without attacking the person?

 

[ChrisL]

This venue makes it difficult. It's discussing politics, religion and all kinds of other controversial subject matter. There are bound to be heated disagreements and sometimes cuss words. I hate to sound like a cliche, but my grandfather used to say that if you want to keep your friends then never discuss politics or religion!

I agree with your grandfather that not discussing politics or religion with your friends, except for those you know very very well and can discuss anything, is a really good policy.

Which is why a message board is sometimes our only consistent venue for being able to express our views in such matters and/or test our opinions and convictions about things. I figure if my beliefs won't hold up under scrutiny and/or I cannot defend them, they aren't worth having.

But. . .I had hopes for the SDZ that we would be able to test our ideas and concepts without people making it personal and/or uncivil. It is because people are attacked or criticized personally for expressing an opinion that creates the incivility.

What are our chances that people can learn how to attack the opinion without attacking the person?

I don't know. It's very difficult sometimes especially when the other person starts off in an aggressive manner, or when you know that a person is just a hateful kind of person.

 

[Foxfyre]

But the problem is Mertex, as was described in the OP, you can avoid the uncivil on a message board by simply not participating on the message board. In the grand scheme of things, no big loss.

That is true, but there are many good people who want to actually discuss the issues civilly and by not participating on the message board you are depriving yourself of conversing with those people. I can make a mental note of who the nasties are, those who aren't able to respond civilly and I won't go out of my way to engage them, but often they respond to me when I'm debating with someone else and just utter insults.......no way that I'm going to let their nonsense run me off the board or cause me to not want to be here, so dishing it back to them at least gives me the satisfaction that they didn't bully me.

But in real life, incivility is much more difficult to avoid when it is exhibited by your neighbors, people you must share the roadways with, in the work place, at church, or other places that are not practical to avoid.

I hear you........I deal with it every day of my life. For the most part, in real life, those that know me well, know my political affiliation and religious beliefs, and my true friends will not bring up controversial issues because they know that we will not be agreeing on it. On FB some of my "friends" share political ads/information that they agree with, which I don't agree with, but I have learned to just overlook it as everyone is entitled to believe as they please. I once responded to such a post with my controversial point of view and all it got me was a bunch of angry retorts from that "friend's" friends. I also don't treat FB like I do a political board....on FB we are not anonymous. I realize that everyone has different opinions and even though we agree on some things, it would be foolish to believe that we can agree on all things. The people on FB who are my "friends" - some I know well, some are just acquaintances, but since I don't know everything about each of them I most certainly respect that and would not ever make assumptions that they would all agree with me, so I refrain from posting controversial issues. Not all of them do that, though, and those who get tired of their messages, can either ignore them or unfriend them....it's that easy.

I am not sure I had fully identified all my motives for starting this thread, but after a few days here, I think that is where I was most likely coming from--the desire for a more civil existence that used to be commonplace almost everywhere. And how do we get back to that?

I don't know how we got to where we are at.....and I don't think there is any hope of getting back to where we were (as far as being more civil to each other) but I believe it is just part of our world evolving. Technology has so changed our life so much, we are in contact with way many more people than we were able to decades back....and perhaps that is the reason. We are in touch with the opinions of so many people, many whom we don't agree with and it has created a deep seated anger among many. That's just my opinion though, and I wouldn't want to give up our technology just to gain more civility.

We are pretty much on the same page actually. The reason I'm still here at USMB is that the positives have outweighed the negatives so far. When that is no longer the case, I will no longer be here.

And like you on FB, I don't 'like' or comment on the political postings whether or not they reflect my personal views--and I have friends and family who do post them--but I prefer to keep FB neutral and controversy free and for almost all of us, it has been a very positive experience. I have never had the experience of somebody saying something unkind or antagonistic to me on FB nor have I ever done that to anybody else. And I'm pretty sure that at least a huge majority of those on my friends' list pretty much can say the same. We also keep our daily lives politics free unless we are very certain we are speaking with people of like views as ourselves and there it is safe to vent a bit.

Where I will quarrel with you a bit is I refuse to believe we can't return to more civil society as the norm. But I do have 'eternal optimist' under my user name. I hope I'm the one who is right about that and hope you are the one who is wrong. I wish I was more secure in my conviction about that though.

Here is something to think about, maybe "back in the day" people were not rude to your face, but I'll bet they had some things to say behind your back. At least today, they will say it to your face in some cases, so which would you prefer?

Tough call. Everybody thrives in an atmosphere of approval and acceptance and nobody really appreciates personal criticism, but sometimes it is necessary. If the criticism is useful, I want it to my face. If not, I would prefer to just drop it, but if necessary to blow off steam when I don't know it is happening, so be it. In most cases no harm no foul.

(That's off the top of my head. I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks after giving it some thought. )

 

[Wolfsister77]

People who are determined to be rude, insulting, and unpleasant are best ignored. Trying to figure out why people are assholes on the internet is an exercise in futility. Most likely they are insecure and it makes them feel better about themselves.

But when they interject themselves into your business, your life, your project, your recreation time, or whatever, when you have to work with them or cooperate with them, or deal with them doing business, you can't really ignore them.

You can ignore them for the most part but if it is someone you have to work with, that might be more difficult. So keep it to the job and confront them. I know that sounds difficult but I've had success with that before. Just by letting them know, in no uncertain terms, that I'm not going to put up with their shit. As long as I don't sink to their level and don't personally attack them, keep it professional, there is nothing they can do.

 

[Foxfyre]

This venue makes it difficult. It's discussing politics, religion and all kinds of other controversial subject matter. There are bound to be heated disagreements and sometimes cuss words. I hate to sound like a cliche, but my grandfather used to say that if you want to keep your friends then never discuss politics or religion!

I agree with your grandfather that not discussing politics or religion with your friends, except for those you know very very well and can discuss anything, is a really good policy.

Which is why a message board is sometimes our only consistent venue for being able to express our views in such matters and/or test our opinions and convictions about things. I figure if my beliefs won't hold up under scrutiny and/or I cannot defend them, they aren't worth having.

But. . .I had hopes for the SDZ that we would be able to test our ideas and concepts without people making it personal and/or uncivil. It is because people are attacked or criticized personally for expressing an opinion that creates the incivility.

What are our chances that people can learn how to attack the opinion without attacking the person?

I don't know. It's very difficult sometimes especially when the other person starts off in an aggressive manner, or when you know that a person is just a hateful kind of person.

Well I know that those who do formal debate learn how to do it. Engaging in any form of personal insult or ad hominem will always lose you serious points in formal debate. So if middle school, highschool, and college kids can learn to do it, are people on a message board less intelligent and capable? Or just less willing?

(Rhetorical question of course.)

 

[ChrisL]

This venue makes it difficult. It's discussing politics, religion and all kinds of other controversial subject matter. There are bound to be heated disagreements and sometimes cuss words. I hate to sound like a cliche, but my grandfather used to say that if you want to keep your friends then never discuss politics or religion!

I agree with your grandfather that not discussing politics or religion with your friends, except for those you know very very well and can discuss anything, is a really good policy.

Which is why a message board is sometimes our only consistent venue for being able to express our views in such matters and/or test our opinions and convictions about things. I figure if my beliefs won't hold up under scrutiny and/or I cannot defend them, they aren't worth having.

But. . .I had hopes for the SDZ that we would be able to test our ideas and concepts without people making it personal and/or uncivil. It is because people are attacked or criticized personally for expressing an opinion that creates the incivility.

What are our chances that people can learn how to attack the opinion without attacking the person?

I don't know. It's very difficult sometimes especially when the other person starts off in an aggressive manner, or when you know that a person is just a hateful kind of person.

Well I know that those who do formal debate learn how to do it. Engaging in any form of personal insult or ad hominem will always lose you serious points in formal debate. So if middle school, highschool, and college kids can learn to do it, are people on a message board less intelligent and capable? Or just less willing?

(Rhetorical question of course.)

Different venue I think plays a role. They are face to face and have an audience and someone keeping score. Here, it's like a free for all!

 

[Foxfyre]

People who are determined to be rude, insulting, and unpleasant are best ignored. Trying to figure out why people are assholes on the internet is an exercise in futility. Most likely they are insecure and it makes them feel better about themselves.

But when they interject themselves into your business, your life, your project, your recreation time, or whatever, when you have to work with them or cooperate with them, or deal with them doing business, you can't really ignore them.

You can ignore them for the most part but if it is someone you have to work with, that might be more difficult. So keep it to the job and confront them. I know that sounds difficult but I've had success with that before. Just by letting them know, in no uncertain terms, that I'm not going to put up with their shit. As long as I don't sink to their level and don't personally attack them, keep it professional, there is nothing they can do.

I hear you but don't think that is entirely realistic. When it is your boss or supervisor or team members who are engaging in incivility, there is no way to avoid it other than giving up your job. I have in fact quit a job over that very thing. When you are being bullied at school it is often subtle or sneaky in ways that it becomes your word against theirs. What can a kid do? When it is your hostile neighbor what can you do short of selling your house and moving?

It really boils down to the person on the receiving end of the incivility suffering all the consequences of it while the hateful, malicious, etc. suffers none..

 

[Derideo_Te]

This venue makes it difficult. It's discussing politics, religion and all kinds of other controversial subject matter. There are bound to be heated disagreements and sometimes cuss words. I hate to sound like a cliche, but my grandfather used to say that if you want to keep your friends then never discuss politics or religion!

I agree with your grandfather that not discussing politics or religion with your friends, except for those you know very very well and can discuss anything, is a really good policy.

Which is why a message board is sometimes our only consistent venue for being able to express our views in such matters and/or test our opinions and convictions about things. I figure if my beliefs won't hold up under scrutiny and/or I cannot defend them, they aren't worth having.

But. . .I had hopes for the SDZ that we would be able to test our ideas and concepts without people making it personal and/or uncivil. It is because people are attacked or criticized personally for expressing an opinion that creates the incivility.

What are our chances that people can learn how to attack the opinion without attacking the person?

What are the odds that people will be able to learn how to distinguish between legitimate criticism of what they actually posted as opposed to always taking the criticism as a personal attack on themselves?

Just because someone is invested in a certain position doesn't mean that criticism of that position is unwarranted. It would be difficult to find any position that was 100% correct in every single aspect that no one would have cause to criticize.

Ergo if you are going to post your position then you have to expect to receive responses. Those responses will vary across the insipid to the insightful spectrum and the onus is us to make that determination without taking them personally and reacting from a position of emotion rather than reason.

So while we might receive both civil and uncivil responses we are free to ignore those that have no merit.

But those that do have merit deserve to be treated as legitimate and we need to examine our own position from the perspective of the legitimate criticism rather than just perceiving it as a personal attack. It doesn't matter how much we are vested in our position if we can't accept the criticism and respond in a civil manner and deal with it then we are better off not posting in the first place IMO.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Wolfsister77]

But the problem is Mertex, as was described in the OP, you can avoid the uncivil on a message board by simply not participating on the message board. In the grand scheme of things, no big loss.

But in real life, incivility is much more difficult to avoid when it is exhibited by your neighbors, people you must share the roadways with, in the work place, at church, or other places that are not practical to avoid.

I am not sure I had fully identified all my motives for starting this thread, but after a few days here, I think that is where I was most likely coming from--the desire for a more civil existence that used to be commonplace almost everywhere. And how do we get back to that?

Well, Don't sink to their level by personally insulting them. Avoid them if possible. If not, stay calm, stand up for yourself, and hope the person being a jerk gets the point. Most importantly, don't let them upset you because they are not worth it. More than likely, they have their own issues they are dealing with and they may not even realize how bad they are coming off. It's much, much tougher with neighbors and co-workers. There's always going to be assholes in this world no matter what we do. The best thing to so is be better than them. Surround yourself with people who are better than them. Tell yourself you are better than them. And realize, it's a part of life.

 

[Foxfyre]

But the problem is Mertex, as was described in the OP, you can avoid the uncivil on a message board by simply not participating on the message board. In the grand scheme of things, no big loss.

But in real life, incivility is much more difficult to avoid when it is exhibited by your neighbors, people you must share the roadways with, in the work place, at church, or other places that are not practical to avoid.

I am not sure I had fully identified all my motives for starting this thread, but after a few days here, I think that is where I was most likely coming from--the desire for a more civil existence that used to be commonplace almost everywhere. And how do we get back to that?

Well, Don't sink to their level by personally insulting them. Avoid them if possible. If not, stay calm, stand up for yourself, and hope the person being a jerk gets the point. Most importantly, don't let them upset you because they are not worth it. More than likely, they have their own issues they are dealing with and they may not even realize how bad they are coming off. It's much, much tougher with neighbors and co-workers. There's always going to be assholes in this world no matter what we do. The best thing to so is be better than them. Surround yourself with people who are better than them. Tell yourself you are better than them. And realize, it's a part of life.

Thanks, but believe me I know all the wise advice. Those business classes I taught included conflict management and I was taught by some of the best. But all the techniques and exemplary conduct on your part still cannot prevent somebody else from making your life miserable if they are determined to do so. And if those in power are unwilling to intervene or the 'bullies' are the ones who are in power, the bottom line is that you are pretty well screwed.