CDZ Illegal Immigration: Shouln't the Punishment Fit the Crime?

[Vandalshandle]

The best thing to do about illegal immigration is to turn it into a partisan political argument and blow it totally out of proportion to the real problem, thereby making it an "us against them" issue, in which everyone can wring their hands, moan and bitch. Meantime issues that really matter, like the 1% of wealthiest Americans owning 50% of the nations' wealth, while demanding more tax relief when the deficit has reached $19 trillion, and our streets are full of homeless people and people who can not afford health care, and food.

It is all Jose and Juanita's fault.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Another thing. Why did Mexico get a pass for allowing this to go on for 30 years? USA holds the hammer. Shut the border. No visa, no tourism, no travel. Get tough, better late than never.

Please don't do that. My dentist in Nogales has not yet installed my new crown.

 

[JoeMoma]

If you have 20 million people violating immigration law, felony or not, something is broken here. Often as not, the law is held to blame. Perhaps it's the lax enforcement tied to a vicious cycle of people that think they are entitled to break immigration law , perhaps actually we need to break that cycle and (common sense says) enforce immigration law and ramp up enforcement? But that's just me. What the hell do I know?

Bingo! Our immigration problems could be solved by simply enforcing current immigration law. No, we don't have to deport all 11 million + illegals all at once. Deport those that we can. Remove the welcome mat at local levels such as allowing illegal immigrant children to attend schools and the associated entitlements such as free lunches. Make employers use e-verify.
Enforce the laws damn-it.

 

[jwoodie]

Another thing. Why did Mexico get a pass for allowing this to go on for 30 years? USA holds the hammer. Shut the border. No visa, no tourism, no travel. Get tough, better late than never.

THIS is how we get Mexico to pay for a wall...on THEIR SIDE OF THE BORDER.

 

[Manonthestreet]

because such plans become perverted in short order and the goodies are flowing...........

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"I am all for a path for permanent residency- but not a path to citizenship- for illegal aliens. "

This isn't consistent.

One cannot expect an undocumented immigrant – who has come forward in the context of immigration reform to acknowledge his crime and willingness to suffer an appropriate penalty pursuant to due process, thus satisfying due process requirements – once he's sustained punitive measures and has 'paid his debt to society' to forever remain a 'permanent' permanent resident alien unable to become a naturalized citizen.

 

[PredFan]

Don't get me wrong, I am fully in favor of IMMEDIATELY and PERMANENTLY securing our borders (and visa programs) by any means necessary, including walls, fences, etc. However, the current debate about what to do with the illegal immigrants who are already here seems to have become a contest about who has the most draconian plan to deal with them.

First, let us remember that illegal entry into the U.S. is not a felony. (Maybe it should be?) Secondly, many of these people arrived here as children and know no other country to call home. Third, many are members of families that include U.S. citizens. Thus it seems that arbitrary arrest and deportation of these people to some location (?) outside of the U.S. is grossly disproportionate to their "crime," and permanent exclusion from participating in American society is not much better.

Other than rigidly adhering to the principle of "not cutting in line," what is to be gained by this approach? Why not offer TEMPORARY residency (but NO welfare benefits) to those people with close ties to the U.S. who voluntarily register and pass criminal background checks? (Those who fail to register would then be subject to immediate deportation and imprisonment if they return.) Why not then provide, after a suitable period of paying taxes and demonstrated self-sufficiency, a means to apply for permanent residency?

Under such a plan, even the concern about eventually "packing" the voter rolls with new (Democrat) voters will have subsided into much more significant political issues. Does anyone really think that maintaining the status quo on this subject is in our best interests?

Yes, the punishment should fit the crime. Deportation, not jail, is a fitting punishment. That is of course as long as illegally immigrating is the only crime committed.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"And we just forgive them for breaking our laws by coming here outside the established process?"

No.

Again, in the context of immigration reform, those undocumented will be subject to punitive measures for having entered the country absent authorization.

The 14th Amendment guarantees the right of due process to all persons in the United States, including those undocumented.

Punitive measures consistent with immigration reform would satisfy that requirement, subject those undocumented to appropriate penalties and fines, and once those penalties are discharged, allow immigration offenders to enter society, as is the case with all other ex-offenders.

 

[jasonnfree]

"I am all for a path for permanent residency- but not a path to citizenship- for illegal aliens. "

This isn't consistent.

One cannot expect an undocumented immigrant – who has come forward in the context of immigration reform to acknowledge his crime and willingness to suffer an appropriate penalty pursuant to due process, thus satisfying due process requirements – once he's sustained punitive measures and has 'paid his debt to society' to forever remain a 'permanent' permanent resident alien unable to become a naturalized citizen.

On the other hand, we don't give people that have broken the law in this country, breaks. Most states, an ex con can't vote or possess a firearm, even if his original sentence was non violent. Continuous forgiveness means continual law breaking and mass immigration from the third world will continue.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Should the punishment fit the crime? Yes! Does a shoplifter get to keep the loot after being caught shoplifting? I don't think so? Should those that enter the country illegally be granted citizenship? See answer the shoplifter question!

Is a shoplifter prohibited from ever again entering a store, handling merchandise, or purchasing goods and services – of course not; to do so would be just as ridiculous as disallowing undocumented immigrants who have been subject to punitive measures to become citizens, where deportation is the sole 'appropriate' punishment.

 

[JoeMoma]

"I am all for a path for permanent residency- but not a path to citizenship- for illegal aliens. "

This isn't consistent.

One cannot expect an undocumented immigrant – who has come forward in the context of immigration reform to acknowledge his crime and willingness to suffer an appropriate penalty pursuant to due process, thus satisfying due process requirements – once he's sustained punitive measures and has 'paid his debt to society' to forever remain a 'permanent' permanent resident alien unable to become a naturalized citizen.

Sure it is consistent if the law is written that way. We want to deter immigrants from entering illegally. Some crimes have penalties last the life of the offender. Sex offenders, for example, may have to be registered on a sex offender list for life. A person convicted of a violent crime may lose his second amendment right to bare (and purchase) arms. Likewise, illegal immigrants can be barred from citizenship. Perhaps it would be reasonable to allow them to apply for legal immigration if they first leave the country and then follow immigration law to come back. In other words, get at the end of the line.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Another thing. Why did Mexico get a pass for allowing this to go on for 30 years? USA holds the hammer. Shut the border. No visa, no tourism, no travel. Get tough, better late than never.

This is being ridiculous, not 'getting tough.'

 

[jwoodie]

Laches (/ˈlætʃᵻz/, LA-chəz, like "latches"; /ˈleɪtʃᵻz/, LAY-chəz; Law French: "remissness", "dilatoriness," from Old French laschesse) refers to a lack of diligence and activity in making a legal claim, or moving forward with legal enforcement of a right, in particular with regard to equity; hence, it is an unreasonable delay that can be viewed as prejudicing the opposing [defending] party. When asserted in litigation, it is an equity defense, that is, a defense to a claim for an equitable remedy. The person invoking laches is asserting that an opposing party has "slept on its rights," and that, as a result of this delay, circumstances have changed, witnesses and/or evidence may have been lost or no longer available, etc., such that it is no longer a just resolution to grant the plaintiff's claim.[not verified in body] Laches is associated with the maxim of equity, "Equity aids the vigilant, not the sleeping ones [that is, those who sleep on their rights]."[not verified in body] Put another way, failure to assert one’s rights in a timely manner can result in a claim being barred by laches. -Wiki

If the U.S. had enforced its own laws in a timely manner, many of these people would have become eligible for legal entry by now.

 

[JoeMoma]

Should the punishment fit the crime? Yes! Does a shoplifter get to keep the loot after being caught shoplifting? I don't think so? Should those that enter the country illegally be granted citizenship? See answer the shoplifter question!

Is a shoplifter prohibited from ever again entering a store, handling merchandise, or purchasing goods and services – of course not; to do so would be just as ridiculous as disallowing undocumented immigrants who have been subject to punitive measures to become citizens, where deportation is the sole 'appropriate' punishment.

It is perfectly reasonable to prohibit the shoplifter from entering the store where he committed the crime.

 

[jasonnfree]

Mexico doesn't tolerate people entering their country illegally, and neither should we. In fact, no other countries have the insane open border policies as we do.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Mexico doesn't tolerate people entering their country illegally, and neither should we. In fact, no other countries have the insane open border policies as we do.

Well, if that is true, I guess that all those stories last year about 100,000 or so Guatemalans entering the USA from Mexico must have been false......

 

[Vandalshandle]

"I am all for a path for permanent residency- but not a path to citizenship- for illegal aliens. "

This isn't consistent.

One cannot expect an undocumented immigrant – who has come forward in the context of immigration reform to acknowledge his crime and willingness to suffer an appropriate penalty pursuant to due process, thus satisfying due process requirements – once he's sustained punitive measures and has 'paid his debt to society' to forever remain a 'permanent' permanent resident alien unable to become a naturalized citizen.

On the other hand, we don't give people that have broken the law in this country, breaks. Most states, an ex con can't vote or possess a firearm, even if his original sentence was non violent. Continuous forgiveness means continual law breaking and mass immigration from the third world will continue.

A. Nobody is a "con" until convicted of committing a crime in a court of law, and
B. Illegal immigration is a misdemeanor, and none of the penalties you have mentioned applies to people convicted of a misdemeanor. If they did, you would lose your citizenship privileges for speeding.

 

[JoeMoma]

I have a friend whose father was a foreign national from Switzerland. His father lived for decades in the United States legally. He married an American citizen and had American citizen children, yet he had no interested in becoming an American citizen himself because the only thing he was giving up was the right to vote and perhaps the possibility of having to serve on a jury. My friend's father passed away and was buried in an American graveyard. Being allowed to live here without being allowed citizenship isn't a huge penalty.

 

[JoeMoma]

"I am all for a path for permanent residency- but not a path to citizenship- for illegal aliens. "

This isn't consistent.

One cannot expect an undocumented immigrant – who has come forward in the context of immigration reform to acknowledge his crime and willingness to suffer an appropriate penalty pursuant to due process, thus satisfying due process requirements – once he's sustained punitive measures and has 'paid his debt to society' to forever remain a 'permanent' permanent resident alien unable to become a naturalized citizen.

On the other hand, we don't give people that have broken the law in this country, breaks. Most states, an ex con can't vote or possess a firearm, even if his original sentence was non violent. Continuous forgiveness means continual law breaking and mass immigration from the third world will continue.

A. Nobody is a "con" until convicted of committing a crime in a court of law, and
B. Illegal immigration is a misdemeanor, and none of the penalties you have mentioned applies to people convicted of a misdemeanor. If they did, you would lose your citizenship privileges for speeding.

Losing citizenship is not the same as being denied citizenship. A person who is not a citizen can be denied a route to citizenship if he does follow proper procedure (the law) in entering the country.

 

[Vandalshandle]

"I am all for a path for permanent residency- but not a path to citizenship- for illegal aliens. "

This isn't consistent.

One cannot expect an undocumented immigrant – who has come forward in the context of immigration reform to acknowledge his crime and willingness to suffer an appropriate penalty pursuant to due process, thus satisfying due process requirements – once he's sustained punitive measures and has 'paid his debt to society' to forever remain a 'permanent' permanent resident alien unable to become a naturalized citizen.

On the other hand, we don't give people that have broken the law in this country, breaks. Most states, an ex con can't vote or possess a firearm, even if his original sentence was non violent. Continuous forgiveness means continual law breaking and mass immigration from the third world will continue.

A. Nobody is a "con" until convicted of committing a crime in a court of law, and
B. Illegal immigration is a misdemeanor, and none of the penalties you have mentioned applies to people convicted of a misdemeanor. If they did, you would lose your citizenship privileges for speeding.

Losing citizenship is not the same as being denied citizenship. A person who is not a citizen can be denied a route to citizenship if he does follow proper procedure (the law) in entering the country.

Ah, but first, he has to be convicted in a court of law for being in the USA illegally. And, law enforcement is not allowed to demand proof of his citizenship without probable cause. And, being a latino, speaking Spanish, and having the name of Juan is NOT probable cause. Please send my regrets to Donald Trump about that.