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If you are human, you are not capable of understanding God.

Grumblenuts

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The universe pops into existence being hard wired to produce intelligence and you don't even pause to wonder why?
The origin of existence is an abiding mystery that commands enormous wonder.

Some have had the temerity to imagine they are capable of nailing it with one explanation or another, and some have been audacious, doctrinaire, and even fanatical in insisting upon their favorite version, yet the mystery endures.

And that's a good thing.
Indeed. "Some" even have the temerity to claim the "universe pops into existence" and is "hard wired to produce intelligence". That "If electrons orbited closer to the nucleus {yada, yada, yada}" That " If electrons and protons did not have the exact opposite charge {yada, yada, yada}" Then repeat this exact nonsense ad nauseum, never pausing to wonder why he couldn't explain (envision, illustrate) an "electron" to anyone if his life depended upon it, let alone any other subatomic "particle" smaller than a proton. I challenge others to attempt doing so as well. Remember quantum mechanics lists all their "Standard Model" so-called "discoveries" as singular, discrete "particles" simply because Einstein could conceive of no other explanation. Note though how all are assigned a certain voltage. Perhaps just unique electrical phenomena then? Some with apparent mass, some without? Maybe that actually makes a ton more sense!
 
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schmidlap

schmidlap

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Indeed. "Some" even have the temerity to claim the "universe pops into existence" and is "hard wired to produce intelligence". That "If electrons orbited closer to the nucleus {yada, yada, yada}" That " If electrons and protons did not have the exact opposite charge {yada, yada, yada}" Then repeat this exact nonsense ad nauseum, never pausing to wonder why he couldn't explain (envision, illustrate) an "electron" to anyone if his life depended upon it, let alone any other subatomic "particle" smaller than a proton. I challenge others to attempt doing so as well. Remember quantum mechanics lists all their "Standard Model" so-called "discoveries" as singular, discrete "particles" simply because Einstein could conceive of no other explanation. Note though how all are assigned a certain voltage. Perhaps just unique electrical phenomena then? Some with apparent mass, some without? Maybe that actually makes a ton more sense!
While Darwin's view of evolutionary biology -

“There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.”

- is applicable to the scientific quest in general, the poetic musings of traditional cosmology have their own charms, imho.

The Onondogas' "Earth on Turtle's Back" is one I always liked.


In his book Researches Into the Early History of Mankind and the Development of Civilization, the turn-of-the-20th-century anthropologist Edward Burnett Tylor writes that the world turtle concept likely first appeared in Hindu mythology. In one Vedic story, the form of the god Vishnu’s second avatar, Kurma, is a great turtle, which provides a celestial foundation upon which a mountain is balanced.
Over in China, part of the traditional creation mythology involves a giant turtle named Ao, although the image in this case is a bit different. According to the legend, the creator goddess cut off the legs of the cosmic turtle and used them to prop up the heavens, which had been damaged by another god. It’s not quite carrying the world on its back, but it still puts a terrapin at the center of the universe, making sure that the very sky doesn’t fall down.
The concept of a world turtle seems to have arisen independently within Native American myth and legend. In the creation stories of the Lenape and Iroquois people, the Earth is created as soil is piled on the back of a great sea turtle that continues to grow until it is carrying the entire world. Many indigenous tribes in North America refer to the continent as Turtle Island to this day.

 

ding

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24,000 + written manuscripts say otherwise. Unless you believe there was a broad conspiracy to forge ~24,000 written manuscripts... like I already said.
Some who selectively embrace the compilation of historical remnants from which they form their narrative are arrogantly dismissive of the Puranas, the Tripitaka, the Granth, the Qur'an, etc., etc., etc.

For many, religion - that purports to aspire to universality - is actually a very parochial matter.
I’m not sure how that applies to what I am talking about. Again... he only left us with two choices unless you believe there was some grand conspiracy.
 

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religion in itself is the aspiration for the means to accomplish the goal of perfection to free their spirit to flourish in the Everlasting and await after time for what surly will be the next objective to accomplish.
Religion is an exclusively human construct, and is, necessarily, whatever humans make of it.

The human notion of eternal existence is an enduring catalyst in the various religions that have been conceived.
Darwin would have argued that religion served a purpose. Otherwise it would have gone extinct long ago.
 

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The universe pops into existence being hard wired to produce intelligence and you don't even pause to wonder why?
The origin of existence is an abiding mystery that commands enormous wonder.

Some have had the temerity to imagine they are capable of nailing it with one explanation or another, and some have been audacious, doctrinaire, and even fanatical in insisting upon their favorite version, yet the mystery endures.

And that's a good thing.
Indeed. "Some" even have the temerity to claim the "universe pops into existence" and is "hard wired to produce intelligence". That "If electrons orbited closer to the nucleus {yada, yada, yada}" That " If electrons and protons did not have the exact opposite charge {yada, yada, yada}" Then repeat this exact nonsense ad nauseum, never pausing to wonder why he couldn't explain (envision, illustrate) an "electron" to anyone if his life depended upon it, let alone any other subatomic "particle" smaller than a proton. I challenge others to attempt doing so as well. Remember quantum mechanics lists all their "Standard Model" so-called "discoveries" as singular, discrete "particles" simply because Einstein could conceive of no other explanation. Note though how all are assigned a certain voltage. Perhaps just unique electrical phenomena then? Some with apparent mass, some without? Maybe that actually makes a ton more sense!
If the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence then it should be discoverable, right?
 

ding

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All good. Far as I'm concerned, agnosticism logically amounts to the same thing as atheism.
In practice... sure. As most agnostics are really atheists. But there are some exceptions.
 
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schmidlap

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he only left us with two choices unless you believe there was some grand conspiracy.
I reject your self-serving premise, of course. I descry nothing sinister in the archeological record.

If you wish to believe that the various remnants of aural traditions that made their way into the writings of unknown authors with unknowable agendas were later edited to form reliable, coherent reportage, the same opportunity is afforded to you by all the world's other religious traditions.
 

vasuderatorrent

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24,000 + written manuscripts say otherwise. Unless you believe there was a broad conspiracy to forge ~24,000 written manuscripts... like I already said.
Some who selectively embrace the compilation of historical remnants from which they form their narrative are arrogantly dismissive of the Puranas, the Tripitaka, the Granth, the Qur'an, etc., etc., etc.

For many, religion - that purports to aspire to universality - is actually a very parochial matter.
I’m not sure how that applies to what I am talking about. Again... he only left us with two choices unless you believe there was some grand conspiracy.

One extremely charismatic guy could pay extremely high salaries to people willing to kill on his behalf. These high paid murderers would be given two options. One option would be to do whatever the leader said while collecting an extremely high salary. The second option would be to be killed. Most of us would continue accepting the high salary in that situation. If that is a conspiracy then yes. This is how I believe Joseph Smith built the multi billion dollar empire that we know today as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I don’t see why it would be silly to believe Moses built the Jewish religion this same way. In Joshua there is some comment about all of the people born before a certain time were cut off. Moses was working with a bunch of kids that weren’t alive for the alleged miracles. They just believed the miracles because they trusted their parent’s recollection of the events. Conspiracies can be made up of unwilling coconspirators.

What makes you think that a conspiracy to build Judaism and/or Christianity is unlikely? People were a lot more loyal back them. They weren’t necessarily loyal out of duty or as a matter of principle. Their loyalty was tied to their own survival. Even today drug cartels are able to motivate this kind of loyalty with a more educate populace. A conspiracy is totally realistic in my observation of the world which isn’t saying much considering that I am dumb. I don’t even believe in God.
 
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schmidlap

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Just curious... how many gods do you believe there are?
Far beyond me to dictate to a god how many god should be.

As previously mentioned, the omnipotent nature of god, by definition, means that god can be none, one, or many simultaneously.
 

Sunsettommy

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If we can know nothing about God, we're left with Cthulhu, something utterly alien. We can't know if any of the supposed pronouncements of this "God" mean what we think they mean. If it says "worship me", it might mean "throw yourself into the ocean abyss, to feed my hungry spawn".
Why would any secure, self-confident god ever say to humans, "Worship ME!"?

Yeah the god that creates the universe and everything in it, yet begs that he be worshipped and obeyed.

That makes no sense at all to me.
 
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schmidlap

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Yeah the god that creates the universe and everything in it, yet begs that he be worshipped and obeyed.

That makes no sense at all to me.
That forms the basic concept of The Church of the Divine Indifferent.
 

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he only left us with two choices unless you believe there was some grand conspiracy.
I reject your self-serving premise, of course. I descry nothing sinister in the archeological record.

If you wish to believe that the various remnants of aural traditions that made their way into the writings of unknown authors with unknowable agendas were later edited to form reliable, coherent reportage, the same opportunity is afforded to you by all the world's other religious traditions.
It wasn't self serving when I was searching for answers 20 years ago and had no preference for an outcome so I'm not sure why it would be any different today.

The first point I am making is that there are ~24,000 written manuscripts which form our understanding of what Christ taught and said. If we take those documents at face value he made a claim to be God and never corrected anyone who addressed him as such. So unless there is a massive conspiracy of epic proportions, I am left with having to accept he did make that claim and allowed others to believe it.

Which brings me to my second point... his teachings were so sublime that it is impossible for me to believe he could be so crazy to think he was God and allow others to think he was God and teach the things he taught. It just doesn't make sense to me.

And then there are the miracles.
 
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