If We Erase The Christian Basis Of Governance, Then What Do We Unleash?

Can you name any 'conservatives' who spoke out against eugenics?

Look here:

And yet the Progressives themselves repeatedly denied that this was the case. As Theodore Roosevelt acknowledged in a private letter near the end of his life:

I do not for one moment believe that the Americanism of today should be a mere submission to the American ideals of the period of the Declaration of Independence. . . . Such action would be not only to stand still, but to go back. American democracy, of course, must mean an opportunity for everyone to contribute his own ideas to the working out of the future. But I will go further than you have done. I have actively fought in favor of grafting on our social life, no less than our industrial life, many of the German ideals.[10]
The Progressives, at least, understood that their approach to reform was animated by a new conception of government or, more precisely, “the State.” Importantly, this idea, the “German idea of the State,” departs from the American Founders’ understanding of government in a couple of key respects, both of which help explain the Progressives’ enthusiasm for eugenics.[11]

For the Progressives, to begin, the power of government is NOT limited in principle to securing the natural or “inalienable” rights of man, as the Declaration of Independence has it. “It is not admitted that there are no limits to the action of the state,” as the German-trained progressive political scientist and future New Dealer Charles Merriam concludes in a 1903 survey of progressive thinking,

but on the other hand it is fully conceded that there are no ‘natural rights’ which bar the way. The question is now one of expediency rather than of principle . . . each specific question must be decided on its own merits, and each action of the state justified, if at all, by the relative advantages of the proposed line of conduct.
“in general,” as the German-trained progressive economist Richard T. Ely likewise affirms, “there is no limit to the right of the State, the sovereign power, save its ability to do good.”[12] The first step toward bold, experimental reform was to untie the hands of government.

For the Progressives, the government’s obligation in this regard was perfectly compatible with treating different races (whom they believed were at varying stages of development), differently in law and policy.[13] It also trumped not only the ability of individuals to exercise their now “so-called innate or ‘natural rights'” –e.g. the right to live, enjoy one’s physical liberty, acquire and use property, marry, speak, worship God according to the dictates of one’s conscience, etc.–but also an individual’s fundamental right to attain his own highest development where the prospect for development was believed to be relatively small, or his restraint was believed to be advantageous to the development of a greater number.[14]

Perhaps nowhere is the Progressives’ willingness to run roughshod over individual liberty, for the sake of improving America generally, as stark as in their support for eugenics.​
These debates are still playing out today. Progressives see no limit to the expansion of government. Progressives favor unmooring the Constitution from what the Founding Fathers intended. Conservatives are in favor of Originalist readings of the Constitution. Eugenics was to the Progressives of the era as Climate Change is to the Progressives of this era - it was "sciency" and they lapped it up.

This was an expansion of government power which was alien to conservatives.

The man who I quoted in the OP and later in the thread, wrote "Eugenics and Other Evils" in 1922. A Christian-based opposition to what Progressives were undertaking. Here is the full-text of that work.

Ironically, as the Eugenics Movement came to the United States, the churches, especially the Methodists, the Presbyterians, and the Episcopalians, embraced it.

The Mainline denominations which have disproportionately provided the footsoldiers of modern-day Liberalism. It's not a surprise that in an era in which everyone belonged to some Christian church that there was variation seen on the metric of how closely a group subscribed to Scripture. Then when religiosity declined the members of these Churches abandoned their Christianity and migrated over to their new religion, Liberalism. The present-day remnants of these Churches are the ones who have Gay Bishops and such.

From the book "The Encyclopedia of Religion in American Politics:

Eugenics_zps8feb9f33.jpg


The people who fought against eugenics in the past are drawn from the same set as the people who fight against abortion today, for eugenics and abortion are thematically linked.

Eugenics in the early 20th century was closely intertwined with the anti-immigration movement.

Yes, it was.
 
God's will and providence necessitate the formation of Western culture and everything else.

OK.

Then let God protect and defend our culture.

I shall do nothing to interfere with the will of God on this matter. I shall do nothing at all.

God's will is absolute. Everything God wants to do is done already.

The created creature reality is the now. Therefore, we have free will. More precisely, we have an appearance of free will.


You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?Romans 9:19-24 (ESV)

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
Matthew 6:33

The Bible is a storybook written by Men.

You better hope so, you've bet the farm on it.
 
[
I wish I could say that I'm convinced, but, I'm not.

A research paper by a couple of Italians, who all all on-fire about Pius XII not saying anything about German mass killings, after Rome had been liberated.

What those folks fail to take into account is that it was not just his (the Vatican's, or the Italian church's) skin that he was thinking about, but the skins of both his clerics (priests, nuns, etc.) and the faithful in those areas still controlled by the Nazis.

Open his mouth about such things and every cleric still in the thrall of the Nazis instantly had a target on his or her chest.

Case anything-but-closed, but, then again, we could probably go back and forth about this one for days, off and on, to no end or 'final' conclusion.

But is the WHOLE PROBLEM with the fucking Catholic Church. Looking out for the Church is ALWAYS the paramount concern.

When they caught priests diddling little boys, the first concern was protecting the church, not the children. They only started caring when those kids starting winning big settlements.

And when the Nazis were turning millions of people into Lampshades and Bars of Soap, the Catholic Church didn't say jack shit about it because, hey, the Nazis might retaliate and boy, we are really worried the damned Commies might outlaw religion.

Not that this was that big of a concern, most of the people fighting for the Axis were Catholics. Italy, Hungary, Romania, Austria, about half of Germany, - mostly Catholics serving in their armies. LIke they were really going to pull the triggers on their fellow Catholics because of something the Pope said?
Joe, I don't have the energy to sink a lot of time into this one at the moment; we're far apart on some aspects of this, and closer on others. Thanks for the time.

Concession duly noted.
 
Concession duly noted.
Don't flatter (or delude) yourself.

I'm 6-1/2 weeks past a knee replacement and popping painkillers that sap energy and make me sleepy.

Another time.

I wasn't aware you needed your knee to refute an argument that the church royally screwed up dealing with either clergy sex abuse or who was on the right side in WWII. Those seem like kind of no-brainers.
 
Concession duly noted.
Don't flatter (or delude) yourself.

I'm 6-1/2 weeks past a knee replacement and popping painkillers that sap energy and make me sleepy.

Another time.

I wasn't aware you needed your knee to refute an argument that the church royally screwed up dealing with either clergy sex abuse or who was on the right side in WWII. Those seem like kind of no-brainers.

Poor Joe :)
 

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I'm hoping that this is a fun topic. A century ago G.K. Chesterton observed:

“The Declaration of Independence dogmatically bases all rights on the fact that God created all men equal; and it is right; for if they were not created equal, they were certainly evolved unequal. There is no basis for democracy except in a dogma about the divine origin of man.”

Christians have this quaint belief that God created Adam and Eve and that all of mankind is equal in the eyes of God. A King and a Pauper shall be judged equally by God once in Heaven. This God inspired notion has informed our governing philosophy ever since we began as a nation.

The evidence of reality however is abundantly clear that we are not all made equal, so what higher principle can we turn to to guide us and prevent us from a utilitarian reform of our laws and customs which recognizes and enshrines what the real world is SCREAMING at us - we are not all equal?

We have past experiments where legislatures have tried to impose the will of man over reality, such as when the Indiana Legislature came close to passing a bill legislating a method to derive pi to a value of 3.2. Any engineer will tell you that if forced to use an imagined value for pi while building a bridge or an airplane, the product will be unstable. Man's will can't override reality. Disaster follows.

So we have a society where the great majority of people believe in God and the belief that God created us all equally. Once that belief is crushed into dust, why on Earth would we close our eyes to what nature is telling us about human inequality? Some will try to argue that appealing to the nature as a model for how society should be constructed is fallacious thinking but what then in its stead? We see the negative ramifications today of a world where we treat all people as equal when they in fact are not, but when God's command is being honored, who are mere men to know better and so we suffer through.

Once the foundational beliefs which created the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are shown to be false, how shall we proceed to reform society? The problem with merely appealing to the Religion of Liberalism is that it's unmoored from independently derived higher principles - it is actually formed by appealing to Christian foundational beliefs. How do we justify the notion of one man, one vote when some men are better and wiser than other men? The rational course is to acknowledge this reality and construct a society reflective of what nature has created. We no longer have to fear God's displeasure because we no longer cling to silly superstitions like "we are all created equal."

Humans qualify for basic human rights by being humans. That's what it's about. The inequalities among humans that exist above that basic level are irrelevant to the issue of basic human rights.
 
I'm hoping that this is a fun topic. A century ago G.K. Chesterton observed:

“The Declaration of Independence dogmatically bases all rights on the fact that God created all men equal; and it is right; for if they were not created equal, they were certainly evolved unequal. There is no basis for democracy except in a dogma about the divine origin of man.”

Christians have this quaint belief that God created Adam and Eve and that all of mankind is equal in the eyes of God. A King and a Pauper shall be judged equally by God once in Heaven. This God inspired notion has informed our governing philosophy ever since we began as a nation.

The evidence of reality however is abundantly clear that we are not all made equal, so what higher principle can we turn to to guide us and prevent us from a utilitarian reform of our laws and customs which recognizes and enshrines what the real world is SCREAMING at us - we are not all equal?

We have past experiments where legislatures have tried to impose the will of man over reality, such as when the Indiana Legislature came close to passing a bill legislating a method to derive pi to a value of 3.2. Any engineer will tell you that if forced to use an imagined value for pi while building a bridge or an airplane, the product will be unstable. Man's will can't override reality. Disaster follows.

So we have a society where the great majority of people believe in God and the belief that God created us all equally. Once that belief is crushed into dust, why on Earth would we close our eyes to what nature is telling us about human inequality? Some will try to argue that appealing to the nature as a model for how society should be constructed is fallacious thinking but what then in its stead? We see the negative ramifications today of a world where we treat all people as equal when they in fact are not, but when God's command is being honored, who are mere men to know better and so we suffer through.

Once the foundational beliefs which created the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are shown to be false, how shall we proceed to reform society? The problem with merely appealing to the Religion of Liberalism is that it's unmoored from independently derived higher principles - it is actually formed by appealing to Christian foundational beliefs. How do we justify the notion of one man, one vote when some men are better and wiser than other men? The rational course is to acknowledge this reality and construct a society reflective of what nature has created. We no longer have to fear God's displeasure because we no longer cling to silly superstitions like "we are all created equal."

Humans qualify for basic human rights by being humans. That's what it's about. The inequalities among humans that exist above that basic level are irrelevant to the issue of basic human rights.

They're irrelevant according to one faction and entirely relevant according to, say, the Progressive Faction who want to sterilize the unfit. We don't need to speak in hypotheticals, we have a good case study here.
 
There are no limiting principles on what progressives believe they can do.

yes they are 100% ignorant fools and so incapable of learning history's lessons. History, culture,
and learning are bunk to them. This is what freed Hitler Stalin and Mao to try anything liberal they wanted. Lliberals thought they were geniuses( spied for Stalin and gave him the bomb) but really they were exactly the kind of common thugs from whom our Constitution sought to give us freedom by limiting govt.
 
God's will and providence necessitate the formation of Western culture and everything else.

OK.

Then let God protect and defend our culture.

I shall do nothing to interfere with the will of God on this matter. I shall do nothing at all.

God's will is absolute. Everything God wants to do is done already.

The created creature reality is the now. Therefore, we have free will. More precisely, we have an appearance of free will.


You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?Romans 9:19-24 (ESV)

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
Matthew 6:33

The Bible is a storybook written by Men.
Correct.


And devoid of any authority consequently.
 
Googling isn't the same as "fishing".

Poor Joe :)

You get to do these things when you go out and earn your own way.

Dude, I go fishing all the time. I own a fishing cabin in N. Wisconsin. (The one my dad left me when we used to have a middle class.)

So this is your idea of 'opulance", catching a fish once in a while?
 

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