For those who insist abortion should be a right

[dblack]

And it flows back and forth due to the partisan nature of our current situation.

They didn't diminish them, they just selected a few they thought were important, and as you said, left an opening for more.

Well, not according to you. That's the problem. You're demanding an amendment.

I take the Federalists side in this.

As I said, a mistake. The funny thing is though - you're not really taking their side. Their presumption was that everyone understood that the enumeration didn't preclude other rights. You're saying it does. You're saying no one has a right to self-determination regarding pregnancy unless we pass an amendment stating so.

 

[martybegan]

Well, not according to you. That's the problem. You're demanding an amendment.

As I said, a mistake. The funny thing is though - you're not really taking their side. Their presumption was that everyone understood that the enumeration didn't preclude other rights. You're saying it does. You're saying no one has a right to self-determination regarding pregnancy unless we pass an amendment stating so.

I'm not demanding anything. I like it at the State level. I'm saying if the abortion rights people want to be sure of it being a right, get it enumerated via a Federal Constitutional amendment.

I'm not saying enumeration precludes other rights, I'm saying you have a cast iron case that something is a right when it's enumerated.

Without enumeration you end up with countless back and forth over something be a right or not.

 

[dblack]

I'm not demanding anything. I like it at the State level. I'm saying if the abortion rights people want to be sure of it being a right, get it enumerated via a Federal Constitutional amendment.

They can also make their case through the Court. No amendment should be required.

I'm not saying enumeration precludes other rights, I'm saying you have a cast iron case that something is a right when it's enumerated.

Which is, again, a mistake. Because over time, only those rights with a "cast iron case" will be protected. Madison in particular was worried that if we listed some, we'd implicitly diminish others. That we would have a list of rights that get protection, and all the others would be dismissed. Which is what we have now. He was right. The Federalists were wrong.

 

[martybegan]

They can also make their case through the Court. No amendment should be required.

Which is, again, a mistake. Because over time, only those rights with a "cast iron case" will be protected. Madison in particular was worried that if we listed some, we'd implicitly diminish others. That we would have a list of rights that get protection, and all the others would be dismissed. Which is what we have now. He was right. The Federalists were wrong.

The courts are an imperfect medium these days. We could see a court that decides to chip away at even enumerated rights.

The Federalists were not wrong. Without any enumerated rights we would probably be a dictatorship by now, unarmed, silenced, and at the whims of a corrupted justice system.

 

[IDIOCRACY]

Consistent my position on abortion, Trump made a GREAT decision. He's a smart guy. Two of many reasons I support him.

https://www.wsj.com/politics/abortion-donald-trump-2024-election-fe641cc5

 

[dblack]

The courts are an imperfect medium these days. We could see a court that decides to chip away at even enumerated rights.

That's very, very true. Especially as the two-party culture war has become entrenched.

The Federalists were not wrong. Without any enumerated rights we would probably be a dictatorship by now, unarmed, silenced, and at the whims of a corrupted justice system.

We can never know. But I think it would have gone the other way, toward a Court - and more importantly a society - keenly invested in guarding its rights.

 

[Bonzi]

Personally I think there's a good argument on both sides, but at the end of the day, there's one BIGLY inconvenient fact for Pro-Choice crowd. It's called the Declaration of Independence, which is the founding document of this country. Surely you've heard of it.

They don't teach this in schools, because if they did the left's collective head would spin like Regan's in the Exorcist.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Personally, I am not pro-choice, however, God gave us free will, so I think ultimately we have a right to do whatever we want. The only caveat in this is the consequences we have to pay for our choices

 

[Rigby5]

Personally I think there's a good argument on both sides, but at the end of the day, there's one BIGLY inconvenient fact for Pro-Choice crowd. It's called the Declaration of Independence, which is the founding document of this country. Surely you've heard of it.

They don't teach this in schools, because if they did the left's collective head would spin like Regan's in the Exorcist.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Wrong.
The right to life means to be left alone.
Left alone, a fetus will die.
An abortion IS leaving a fetus alone, instead of letting it be a parasite on the woman.
Banning abortion does not protect the rights of the fetus, but instead for the woman to be a slave to the fetus, feeding it, supporting it, and giving birth, which is over tens times more deadly then having an abortion instead.

 

[Rigby5]

I don't suppose you can be fussed to supply a source for that claim?

{...
In 1857, the AMA took aim at unregulated abortion providers with a letter-writing campaign pushing state lawmakers to ban the practice. To make their case, they asserted that there was a medical consensus that life begins at conception, rather than at quickening.

The campaign succeeded. At least 40 anti-abortion laws went on the books between 1860 and 1880.

And yet some doctors continued to perform abortions in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. By then, abortion was illegal in almost all states and territories, but during the Depression era, “doctors could see why women wouldn’t want a child,” and many would perform them anyway, Fissell says. In the 1920s and through the 1930s, many cities had physicians who specialized in abortions, and other doctors would refer patients to them “off book.”

That leniency faded with the end of World War II. “All across America, it’s very much about gender roles, and women are supposed to be in the home, having babies,” Fissell says. This shift in the 1940s and ’50s meant that more doctors were prosecuted for performing abortions, which drove the practice underground and into less skilled hands. In the 1950s and 1960s, up to 1.2 million illegal abortions were performed each year in the U.S., according to the Guttmacher Institute. In 1965, 17% of reported deaths attributed to pregnancy and childbirth were associated with illegal abortion.
...}

 

[Rigby5]

The courts are an imperfect medium these days. We could see a court that decides to chip away at even enumerated rights.

The Federalists were not wrong. Without any enumerated rights we would probably be a dictatorship by now, unarmed, silenced, and at the whims of a corrupted justice system.

I think you are mistaken.
The Federalists, like Hamilton, were against the bill of rights, or any attempt at enumeration.

{...
I go further and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and to the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution but would even be dangerous. They would contain various exceptions to powers not granted; and, on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do? Why, for instance, should it be said that the liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given by which restrictions may be imposed?
...}
The Federalists on Enumerating Rights – ADEF: Bill of Rights & the American Constitution

 

[Lesh]

Then you DON'T think there are good arguments on both sides !!!

IF you debated whether it would be good to kill your mother you would not be so illogical.
It is ILLOGICAL to say that you hold to some primal truth UNTIL shown otherwise. You don't hold to it at all if you argue that way.

There is no “argument “.

The battle lines have been drawn

Republicans want to end abortion

Sane people think women should determine their own situation

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Ah fuck off, you Democracks can't do anything right. Fuck California way < even Hillbillies.

Has nothing do with abortion. Just a grown man bleeding from his wherever. ^^

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

They can also make their case through the Court. No amendment should be required.

That's precisely what is required, in this backwards ass country.

 

[Unkotare]

That's precisely what is required, in this backwards ass country.

The door is thataway. GTFO.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The door is thataway. GTFO.

Ha, it's easier when the backwards fucks self identify.

 

[Unkotare]

Ha, it's easier when the backwards fucks self identify.

You don't like this country? Get the fuck out. We don't need you.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You don't like this country? Get the fuck out. We don't need you.

Shut up crybaby. I will continue to criticize the system, and you can continue to hate most Americans. Deal?

Then we will see who should be shown the door. It's you.

 

[Unkotare]

Shut up crybaby. I will continue to criticize the system....

You didn't "criticize the system," douche. You denounced my great nation. You have no respect for my country and my country has NO need for you. GTFO.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You didn't "criticize the system," douche. You denounced my great nation. You have no respect for my country and my country has NO need for you. GTFO.

I sure did. Our system is backwards, our country is falling behind the first world.

Now stop yer goddamn whining, jackass.

 

[konradv]

Personally I think there's a good argument on both sides, but at the end of the day, there's one BIGLY inconvenient fact for Pro-Choice crowd. It's called the Declaration of Independence, which is the founding document of this country. Surely you've heard of it.

They don't teach this in schools, because if they did the left's collective head would spin like Regan's in the Exorcist.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The Declaration of Independence has no force in law.