If we are going to have public schooling, especially compelled public schooling, we must take care of the human needs of children.

[Seymour Flops]

Not my problem as a tax payer. It is the parent's responsibility to make sure that their kids are properly cared for.

Why is it your responsibility to make sure that they are educated at all?

As a tax payer I don't mind shelling out some of my money to provide a literacy education on the community level

Then shell it out voluntarily.

Don't tax me to pay for your social justice as you see it. Especially don't ask me to pay taxes to educate kids who cannot function properly as human beings, due to parental neglect, and therefore are even less able to function as students.

but it sure as hell is not my responsibility to take care of the welfare of somebody's else's kid. It is there responsibility.

Again, it is not your responsibility to educate someone else's kids, period. Nor is it my responsibility. Yet, you seem to advocate forcing me to pay for that? Why?

If it is because, "well, we need kids to be educated because blah, blah, blah," Fine. But educate them right, don't just force them to go to school, knowing they will learn nothing because their human needs are not met.

Liberals really have a hard time understanding the concept of responsibility, don't they?

You are the tax-and-spend social justice warrior here, not me.

 

[Seymour Flops]

That may be the result of what their parents were, or were not, taught when they were in school.

Certainly.

If their parents had been provided a truly equal education, in which the school makes sure that students are ready to learn, before they teach them, then likely they would be raised in homes in which food, shelter, and study opportunities are provided.

As it is, the public schools are only perpetuating the cycle of poverty, ensuring that the children of successful parents will grow up successful (as they would have anyway without the public schools), and that the children of poverty will stay in poverty.

Obviously, there are exceptions, children who rise above their poverty and succeed, and children who throw away the opportunities they are given by caring parents. But for the most part, children are no more successful in public schools than were their parents.

 

[Woodznutz]

Uh what are you on about now? Physical ed, music ed, art--the science on this is solid. Yes, that's education.

I'm talking about all the other stuff--character education, CRT, feeding children meals and making sure they have food at home. Health clinics in schools, washing their clothes, etc.

That will mean using resources and time meant for education for other purposes.

CRT? Are you serious?

 

[SweetSue92]

That will mean using resources and time meant for education for other purposes.

CRT? Are you serious?

To clarify. Subjects that are academic/educational and thus worth pursuing: reading, writing, math, history, science, languages, music, art, physical education.

What I listed as not "academic": CRT, character education, meals, health clinic

 

[Woodznutz]

Certainly.

If their parents had been provided a truly equal education, in which the school makes sure that students are ready to learn, before they teach them, then likely they would be raised in homes in which food, shelter, and study opportunities are provided.

As it is, the public schools are only perpetuating the cycle of poverty, ensuring that the children of successful parents will grow up successful (as they would have anyway without the public schools), and that the children of poverty will stay in poverty.

Obviously, there are exceptions, children who rise above their poverty and succeed, and children who throw away the opportunities they are given by caring parents. But for the most part, children are no more successful in public schools than were their parents.

True. A person's home life probably influences their future more than all the schooling they've had. In many cases the die is cast before the kid sets foot in school.

 

[Unkotare]

.... The principal got the entire student body together--this is elementary--and told the children, "When a teacher tells you something, you are not allowed to say 'no'. That's it. YOU FOLLOW DIRECTIONS. Saying 'no' is not an option."

That's how you begin to do it....

That's a terrible idea, and will fail in any case.

 

[Woodznutz]

To clarify. Subjects that are academic/educational and thus worth pursuing: reading, writing, math, history, science, languages, music, art, physical education.

What I listed as not "academic": CRT, character education, meals, health clinic

But you are involving these non-academic elements in the nurture and care mandate aren't you?

 

[SweetSue92]

But you are involving these non-academic elements in the nurture and care mandate aren't you?

Frankly I think that's something you typed that you're crediting to me. I didn't type that out....I said schools are basically orphanages for many children, but no one acknowledges this.

 

[Woodznutz]

Frankly I think that's something you typed that you're crediting to me. I didn't type that out....I said schools are basically orphanages for many children, but no one acknowledges this.

I'm addressing your posts as representing the whole school system. Nothing personal.

The biggest problem for formal education today is convincing kids that they need it. Kids value street smarts and social smarts above academics. Sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll, are also big distractions.

 

[Unkotare]

I'm addressing your posts as representing the whole school system. Nothing personal.

The biggest problem for formal education today is convincing kids that they need it. Kids value street smarts and social smarts above academics. Sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll, are also big distractions.

There have always been kids who are not academically inclined and plenty who are. Ever thus.

 

[Flash]

I am not a liberal. But I am also not in favor of this: street children from London around 1900. That's what you have when you have neglectful parents and no welfare for children. Kids living on the streets, much too young.

View attachment 658713

Taxes are forced by the government.

I do not want my tax money to be used to pay other people's bills.

I don't mind it being used for a literacy school providing it is managed on a local level and focuses on reading, writing and arithmetic.

The parents need to provide for the welfare of their kids. It is not my responsibility.

If I feel like helping children in need I want to do it though charity, not government mandates.

I help support an orphanage now and have no problem helping children but I do not want the government to be a welfare agency so that deadbeat parents don't have to take care of their children.

No welfare, grants, subsidies, bailouts or entitlements. That is real Conservative values.

 

[Flash]

Why is it your responsibility to make sure that they are educated at all?

Then shell it out voluntarily.

Don't tax me to pay for your social justice as you see it. Especially don't ask me to pay taxes to educate kids who cannot function properly as human beings, due to parental neglect, and therefore are even less able to function as students.

Again, it is not your responsibility to educate someone else's kids, period. Nor is it my responsibility. Yet, you seem to advocate forcing me to pay for that? Why?

If it is because, "well, we need kids to be educated because blah, blah, blah," Fine. But educate them right, don't just force them to go to school, knowing they will learn nothing because their human needs are not met.

You are the tax-and-spend social justice warrior here, not me.

You bring up a valid Libertarian point.

In a perfect free world we would all be responsible for our own bills, including education.

Education on the literacy level is one of those things that is borderline in my opinion.

I don't support the Federal government being involved in education. I think it should be at the community level, just like it use to be before this bloated government exploded.

I sent my sons to a private school and hated paying the stupid property tax that provided education for others but I am not at the point of saying do away with it entirely.

I hate to see what the public schools have become. I can't justify that at all. Nobody can.

There are a few legitimate functions of government. Defense, courts, police etc. Most people don't mind paying for the roads they use because after all, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Education is something I think most people would support. However, your point that the Liberals have really fucked it up is valid.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Seymour Flops
No Joy in Mudville

College must be replaced with highly paid professional education. Getting a job just because you can go four or more years without a job makes the present system worthless. Despite the massive propaganda from the plutocratic parasites, ambitious imbeciles who go to college have no right to the jobs they are given. Sacrifice has no merit; it is nothing but brown-nosing in order to prove to the economic bullies what a pushover you are.

Or let's change sports to be like this non-motivating, non-productive educational system. A high-school All American baseball player will have to take out a hundred-thousand dollar loan to pay the minor leagues to train him. As for living expenses, he will be forced to get a low-paying off-season job to support him through the season.

 

[Unkotare]

Seymour Flops
No Joy in Mudville

College must be replaced with highly paid professional education. ....

This broken record again......

 

[Seymour Flops]

You bring up a valid Libertarian point.

In a perfect free world we would all be responsible for our own bills, including education.

Education on the literacy level is one of those things that is borderline in my opinion.

I don't support the Federal government being involved in education. I think it should be at the community level, just like it use to be before this bloated government exploded.

I sent my sons to a private school and hated paying the stupid property tax that provided education for others but I am not at the point of saying do away with it entirely.

I hate to see what the public schools have become. I can't justify that at all. Nobody can.

There are a few legitimate functions of government. Defense, courts, police etc. Most people don't mind paying for the roads they use because after all, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Education is something I think most people would support. However, your point that the Liberals have really fucked it up is valid.

Yes, liberals have fucked up what used to be a nearly universally supported government program. Nothing is more natural than for parents to want their children educated, and nothing - other than basic police and fire services - is more acceptable to communities as a tax-funded expense.

In the days in which the U.S. economy was primarily farming, schools were held during the winter months, so that children were available to help with farm work. No one said "school days are school days, too bad if a kids parents can't afford to do without the extra labor." Sadly, now a large part of our economy is welfare. The welfare mentality is not to spend money on kids, but to get free stuff due to having kids. We cannot change that mentality without ending welfare as we know it, and there is not the political will to do that.

As a public school teacher, I have to note that we already take care of a large part of our student's life needs that affect their ability to learn. We send a bus to their door or close to it, we feed them breakfast and lunch, we provide them showers (middle school and above), and we have counselors available who can refer parents to agencies if they need help.

It's only once in a while that we run into a sticking point, like a kid whose parents won't bother to get them glasses. But, when we hit that sticking point, an attitude I see is "well, this is the last straw! If those parents can't even take this voucher the nurse offered and get them to an optometrist, that isn't our problem."

But it is our problem. Seven hours a day, five days a week, we have to deal with a kid who can't learn because he can't see and then we act surprised that the kids acts out.

 

[Unkotare]

... We send a bus to their door or close to it, we feed them breakfast and lunch, we provide them showers (middle school and above), and we have counselors available who can refer parents to agencies if they need help.
....

At one school where I used to work there was a daycare center in the high school for the children of the students.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Seymour Flops
No Joy in Mudville

College must be replaced with highly paid professional education. Getting a job just because you can go four or more years without a job makes the present system worthless. Despite the massive propaganda from the plutocratic parasites, ambitious imbeciles who go to college have no right to the jobs they are given. Sacrifice has no merit; it is nothing but brown-nosing in order to prove to the economic bullies what a pushover you are.

College became the new high school, as employers realized that a HS diploma is meaningless in itself. Employers would require a college degree, with no requirement for any particular field, for jobs like office manager and sales trainee. Since they are not allowed to give racist IQ tests, they use college graduation as a sign that at least the applicant had some snap, and willingness to complete something. I think that value is now itself being reduced, since college is being dumbed down.

Or let's change sports to be like this non-motivating, non-productive educational system. A high-school All American baseball player will have to take out a hundred-thousand dollar loan to pay the minor leagues to train him. As for living expenses, he will be forced to get a low-paying off-season job to support him through the season.

That brings up another point. Not only does public school often fail to meet the basic needs of students, in many cases they are social and emotional pressure cookers that seem almost designed to push students over the edge. Put kids in an environment like that, when all they do at home is play violent video games and view unlimited violent porn, it is a recipe for mass shootings, especially if you carefully make the school a gun-free zone, so that no one can stop an active shooter.

 

[Woodznutz]

There have always been kids who are not academically inclined and plenty who are. Ever thus.

I agree. I wasn't.

If they are not going to learn because they are hungry, exhausted, sick, or unable to see the board, should we just send them home, or let them stay and chastise them for being unable to learn?

Chastise them, then send them home.

 

[Woodznutz]

At one school where I used to work there was a daycare center in the high school for the children of the students.

Well, schools have to make accommodations for pregnant students, why not their kids.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

How about separation of teacher and parent. Everything you listed is the responsibility of the parent, not the teacher...

Teachers are responsible for the way schools are today. They are more interested in getting drag queens into kindergarten classes than the children.