If we are going to have public schooling, especially compelled public schooling, we must take care of the human needs of children.

[Unkotare]

...

The team with the highest score will get Friday off. The team with the lowest score will have to come in on Saturday. High individual scorers from four grades older will be paid to teach the Saturday classes.

You have posted this incredibly stupid idea many, many times. It is NEVER going to happen, so direct your OCD elsewhere.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Everything Wrong With Education Is Done Right in Sports

No football coach blames his team's poor performance on his players' parents. Neither should any teacher.

Not really a valid analogy. I wish it were.

Coaches are allowed to pick and choose their players. They pick them from among the students who have self-selected as wanting to tryout for the football team. If a player does not appear to have the ability to help the coach win, he is rejected regardless of how much he wants to play. If a player joins the team and tries hard at first, but then loses interested, they can be benched for the rest of the season and not invited back. Give me the opportunity to do that with students, and I'll produce you some straight-A students. Our PAP math teacher has a 100% pass rate for 8th graders taking the 9th grade algebra state test because she uses exactly that model.

For most athletes, the reward for the hard work of practice comes on Friday (or different days for middle school), in which they get to play and cheer their team on and often celebrate afterward with cute cheerleaders. It's not a matter of, "work hard, so that when you're an adult, you can be successful."

Let a football coach try this: Tell the players that for the rest of high school, they will only come to practice. If they do well enough in the practices, then at the end of their senior year, they can find a college with football team. But that team will only practice also and the practices will be harder and longer. At the end of four years of practice, they can start playing for a professional team, hopefully one that pays high enough to pay for the student loans it will take to spend those four years practicing.

 

[Woodznutz]

Everything Wrong With Education Is Done Right in Sports

No football coach blames his team's poor performance on his players' parents. Neither should any teacher.

Teachers are as permissive as parents, tacitly approving of the failures of the parents. A high/low blindside tackle on the kids.

 

[Woodznutz]

First, let me state that I am both a public school teacher and a person who is libertarian. As a libertarian, I would not object to public schools being phased out completely. I am confident that, in the absences of public schools, I would earn a far larger salary than my district determined scale. Point is that the "if" in my statement is sincere.

Since the answer to whether we will have public school is an overwhelming "yes," that the Twoparties agree on, we have to take a realistic look at what a child needs in order to learn in a public school.

A hungry child will not learn.
An exhausted child will not learn.
A sick child will not learn, if his sickness makes him too uncomfortable to concentrate.
A child who cannot see the board will not learn, in the absence of special accommodations.
A child who dreads the weekend due to abusive or negligent parents will learn perhaps Mon - Thurs, but will not learn on Friday.

My fellow/sister teachers often complain and lament that "we have to parent" some kids. They are right, that is exactly what we often have to do. We parent the kids, because the parents won't. That's what the welfare state has taught them is the way to behave.

Aren't these problems to be addressed by the oft repeated teacher's mandate to teach, nurture, and care for our kids? Sounds like parenting to me.

 

[SweetSue92]

I don't know how to teach but I can fix the problems that hinder teachers from teaching, and the problems kids have in paying attention. Think of me as the 'plumber' who stops the 'flood' from the 'broken pipe' so everyone can get on with what they are there for.

You can do none of that in 2022. I guarantee you that.

 

[SweetSue92]

Yes, I get that.

News flash: parents are not doing it in many cases.

If public schools are not an equalizer of that kind of disadvantage, what it the point of it? Let all schools be private, and voluntary to send your kids there. Then the kids with the best parents will get the best education, which is what you are advocating.

No one ever has an answer for this. When I say okay, we have kinders come in who are basically unsocialized to the point they are not toilet trained. They can't share, they can't sit and listen for even one minute. They have never been taught any of this. The teacher now has to basically socialize this child WHILE simultaneously teaching her to read AND while teaching 20 other children.

They never have an answer. Just, shrug, and if you can't hack it get out.

No one can hack this. We are teachers. Not orphanages. Or as our social worker says: day treatment centers.

Pick a side or something.

 

[initforme]

Sue, bashing teachers and despising them has been an american tradition for a loooong time. I remember in the 50s, the era some think america was in it's glory, (which is a falsehood in every way), listening to my dads friends sit and complain about them. He'd shut them up quickly. It's been happening since forever. Maybe it stems from the era where the man went to work in an awful terrible factory and went home. Like a robot. That made them angry and spiteful.

 

[SweetSue92]

Sue, bashing teachers and despising them has been an american tradition for a loooong time. I remember in the 50s, the era some think america was in it's glory, (which is a falsehood in every way), listening to my dads friends sit and complain about them. He'd shut them up quickly. It's been happening since forever. Maybe it stems from the era where the man went to work in an awful terrible factory and went home. Like a robot. That made them angry and spiteful.

1. Your dad's friends may have complained about them; people complain about a lot. But probably if you were sent home in trouble with the teacher you were made to mind the teacher. Probably your dad did not call the teacher and chew her out for daring to discipline "my son". That's first.

2. As I have repeatedly said on this forum: I am not concerned about my own situation. I'm fine. I have a few years left and, barring any unforeseen circumstances, will finish my career fulfilled. It's what I see around me. New teachers are quitting left and right, even in my VERY GOOD district. Even more alarming, young people are not going into the profession.

 

[Flash]

First, let me state that I am both a public school teacher and a person who is libertarian. As a libertarian, I would not object to public schools being phased out completely. I am confident that, in the absences of public schools, I would earn a far larger salary than my district determined scale. Point is that the "if" in my statement is sincere.

Since the answer to whether we will have public school is an overwhelming "yes," that the Twoparties agree on, we have to take a realistic look at what a child needs in order to learn in a public school.

A hungry child will not learn.
An exhausted child will not learn.
A sick child will not learn, if his sickness makes him too uncomfortable to concentrate.
A child who cannot see the board will not learn, in the absence of special accommodations.
A child who dreads the weekend due to abusive or negligent parents will learn perhaps Mon - Thurs, but will not learn on Friday.

My fellow/sister teachers often complain and lament that "we have to parent" some kids. They are right, that is exactly what we often have to do. We parent the kids, because the parents won't. That's what the welfare state has taught them is the way to behave.

If I were to suggest that we simply allow those kids to stay home, those same teachers would sputter with outrage. Because those kids have a "right" to a public school education. Because public school is the great equalizer. But is it?

A child experiencing any of the above is not getting an equal education to a child with an identical demographic, parental education and socioeconomic background whose parents provide the care the students needs, and appropriate time and location in which to study. If we are to be the equalizers, we must find ways to close those gaps.

When I taught at an elementary school we ran "Grizzly Bear Camp," which was an after school program that let kids study and do homework in the library for 90 minutes after school, followed by play time and a snack in the gym, and a bus ride home. It was a great success. In Junior High, they have after school "tutorials," but they are more a case of "You're behind in your work, so you are assigned to after school tutorials." Not nearly as helpful to kids with inadequate parenting.

If a child has a visual impairment severe enough to be classified as a disability, the school will spare little expense in providing equipment for that child to be able to access materials. If a child needs glasses and can't see the board, but the parent is too lazy to provide them, they kid is just out of luck. Why? Any schools budget can easily absorb the cost of prescription eyeglasses.

We feed the kids free breakfast and lunch and continue that into the summer. That's good. Our counselors will provide school supplies and a backpack to kids whose parents will not buy them. Good again. But we should be providing any other needs that arise as well. Let a committee decide who has the need, since educators insist on committees. But get the kids taken care of, don't chastise them for not being ready to learn.

Just because we have public classes that teaches reading, writing and arithmetic don't mean we are responsible for the welfare of the children. That is the responsibility of the parents.

 

[SweetSue92]

Just because we have public classes that teaches reading, writing and arithmetic don't mean we are responsible for the welfare of the children. That is the responsibility of the parents.

When you started kindergarten, the schools were probably able to tell your parents you were "not ready" if you couldn't, say, use the toilet independently, skip, write your name, and maybe tie your shoes.

Do you even know that schools cannot do that anymore? If a child is of age the schools must take them no matter what. Neglected, abused, completely unsocialized. So you can SAY "we are not responsible for the welfare of the children"....but oh yes we certainly are.

 

[Unkotare]

1. Your dad's friends may have complained about them; people complain about a lot. But probably if you were sent home in trouble with the teacher you were made to mind the teacher. Probably your dad did not call the teacher and chew her out for daring to discipline "my son". That's first.

2. As I have repeatedly said on this forum: I am not concerned about my own situation. I'm fine. I have a few years left and, barring any unforeseen circumstances, will finish my career fulfilled. It's what I see around me. New teachers are quitting left and right, even in my VERY GOOD district. Even more alarming, young people are not going into the profession.

 

[Unkotare]

If you can't hack it, GET OUT.

 

[Woodznutz]

You can do none of that in 2022. I guarantee you that.

Then the situation is hopeless.

 

[SweetSue92]

Then the situation is hopeless.

Yes. I am trying to wake people up.

However. One small glimmer of hope. A friend of mine works in a nearby district where the behavior is just atrocious. The principal got the entire student body together--this is elementary--and told the children, "When a teacher tells you something, you are not allowed to say 'no'. That's it. YOU FOLLOW DIRECTIONS. Saying 'no' is not an option."

That's how you begin to do it. That principal has put a line in the sand and obviously she is willing to hold it, no matter how many parents call and complain about "disciplining my little Ava" or whatever.

The schools must begin to take it back. It might be too late, I don't know. And too many parents are not on board--even conservatives, who think we're all just groomers and indoctrinators (but want to give us guns. Sure.)

 

[Woodznutz]

Yes. I am trying to wake people up.

However. One small glimmer of hope. A friend of mine works in a nearby district where the behavior is just atrocious. The principal got the entire student body together--this is elementary--and told the children, "When a teacher tells you something, you are not allowed to say 'no'. That's it. YOU FOLLOW DIRECTIONS. Saying 'no' is not an option."

That's how you begin to do it. That principal has put a line in the sand and obviously she is willing to hold it, no matter how many parents call and complain about "disciplining my little Ava" or whatever.

The schools must begin to take it back. It might be too late, I don't know. And too many parents are not on board--even conservatives, who think we're all just groomers and indoctrinators (but want to give us guns. Sure.)

You've got it. While in school the kids are under the "command and control" of the teachers and staff. That's the beginning point (and was when I was in school).

I suggest that the school boards go to court for a formal determination of their obligations under the law regarding their teaching mandates.

For example, is it the school's obligation to address the kid's personal needs, or should it be limited to academics? How about physical education? What are the outer limits regarding the teaching of health and fitness? And what is the place of music instruction in regard to academics? And we can't ignore inter-school competitive athletics either. What is their place in education?

In other words, do the schools have a mandate to create an artificial social order within the school system that doesn't reflect the real social order that the students are supposed to be preparing for?

 

[Seymour Flops]

Just because we have public classes that teaches reading, writing and arithmetic don't mean we are responsible for the welfare of the children. That is the responsibility of the parents.

If they are not going to learn because they are hungry, exhausted, sick, or unable to see the board, should we just send them home, or let them stay and chastise them for being unable to learn?

 

[SweetSue92]

You've got it. While in school the kids are under the "command and control" of the teachers and staff. That's the beginning point (and was when I was in school).

I suggest that the school boards go to court for a formal determination of their obligations under the law regarding their teaching mandates.

For example, is it the school's obligation to address the kid's personal needs, or should it be limited to academics? How about physical education? What are the outer limits regarding the teaching of health and fitness? And what is the place of music instruction in regard to academics? And we can't ignore inter-school competitive athletics either. What is their place in education?

In other words, do the schools have a mandate to create an artificial social order within the school system that doesn't reflect the real social order that the students are supposed to be preparing for?

Uh what are you on about now? Physical ed, music ed, art--the science on this is solid. Yes, that's education.

I'm talking about all the other stuff--character education, CRT, feeding children meals and making sure they have food at home. Health clinics in schools, washing their clothes, etc.

 

[Flash]

If they are not going to learn because they are hungry, exhausted, sick, or unable to see the board, should we just send them home, or let them stay and chastise them for being unable to learn?

Not my problem as a tax payer. It is the parent's responsibility to make sure that their kids are properly cared for.

As a tax payer I don't mind shelling out some of my money to provide a literacy education on the community level but it sure as hell is not my responsibility to take care of the welfare of somebody's else's kid. It is there responsibility.

Liberals really have a hard time understanding the concept of responsibility, don't they?

 

[Woodznutz]

If they are not going to learn because they are hungry, exhausted, sick, or unable to see the board, should we just send them home, or let them stay and chastise them for being unable to learn?

That may be the result of what their parents were, or were not, taught when they were in school.

 

[SweetSue92]

Not my problem as a tax payer. It is the parent's responsibility to make sure that their kids are properly cared for.

As a tax payer I don't mind shelling out some of my money to provide a literacy education on the community level but it sure as hell is not my responsibility to take care of the welfare of somebody's else's kid. It is there responsibility.

Liberals really have a hard time understanding the concept of responsibility, don't they?

I am not a liberal. But I am also not in favor of this: street children from London around 1900. That's what you have when you have neglectful parents and no welfare for children. Kids living on the streets, much too young.