If the US healthcare system is the best and socialism is the worst

[Meister]

youre too dumb to even know what socialism means..

Yes, dear, and you're too academic to be clinical enough to know that socialism as extreme as Obama's has historically led to societal necessity to wipe out people in terms of millions, thank you very much.

you cant even define socialism with using cut and paste from a dictionary. so save the lecture for another one of your brain washed wing nut friends.

This is all you have when you have been reduced down to rubbish, Dr. Syphon?

 

[Meister]

Some have yet to run out of other people's money. Soon though, soon.

you DO know that Germany has had socialized medicine since the END of WW2, right?

Are THEY running out of other people's money?

Way to prove you're an ignoramus.

Did a little research on your German healthcare:

Those doctor budgets get divided into quarterly amounts — a limited pot of money for each region. Once doctors collectively use up that money, that's it — there's no more until the next quarter.

It's a powerful incentive for doctors to exercise restraint — not to provide more care than is necessary. But often, the pot of money is exhausted before the end of the quarter. "I don't get paid at the moment," he said recently, near the end of a quarter. "I haven't been paid for what I'm doing for the last two or three weeks."

He has to wait until the beginning of the next quarter before the sickness funds will start paying the bills he submits. Some German doctors simply close their doors and take a vacation at the end of every quarter.
Leibl says he feels "abused, exploited in a way" by this system, "because the work we are doing actually is pretty demanding. And I have a lot of responsibilities. And I think that should reflect in what I get paid."

In some parts of Germany, doctors are going on strike over what they get paid.
Keeping German Doctors On A Budget Lowers Costs : NPR


I think that could be called rationing healthcare, don't you, Deceptive?

What happened to Deceptive? I would like him to respond regarding this NPR article and his vision of the German's best damn healthcare in the world.

 

[eflatminor]

youre too dumb to even know what socialism means..

An ad hominem attack from a resident lefty? I for one am shocked...shocked I tell you!

 

[Syphon]

youre too dumb to even know what socialism means..

An ad hominem attack from a resident lefty? I for one am shocked...shocked I tell you!

define it...... you cant because you dont even know what it is without a dictionary

 

[eflatminor]

...you dont even know what it is without a dictionary

Followed up with another another ad hominem. Again, just shocking.

 

[UpAndAbout]

youre too dumb to even know what socialism means..

An ad hominem attack from a resident lefty? I for one am shocked...shocked I tell you!

define it...... you cant because you dont even know what it is without a dictionary

Ok, smarty pants, since you are so smart --- YOU define it. What do YOU think it is?

 

[pinqy]

Why are no socialist countries switching to our system of private insurance???

Because once people have a government provided service they regard as "free," it's almost impossible to eliminate that service.

 

[Foxfyre]

Why are no socialist countries switching to our system of private insurance???

Because once people have a government provided service they regard as "free," it's almost impossible to eliminate that service.

Also power becomes a very heady, infectious, and persistent addiction very quickly. Having the power over the people's healthcare and the ability to grant or withhold so necessary a service is a very strong incentive not to privatize much of anything. As long as the people can be made to believe that it is necessary that the government provide something, the government will do its damndest to ensure its own security by keeping the people believing that.

 

[kiwiman127]

First, stop hiding behind the Liberal "us" and simply say tell "me"....
....don't be afraid to stand on your own two feet.

We're the richest nation. We have the best heathcare in the world.
Their standard of living and medical expectations aren't as high as ours.
The spend huge amounts of money on cradle-to-grave styles and you see the results in Greece, Portugal, Italy and Ireland.
Socialized medicine is fine for minor ailments, but if major and expensive, you don't get it.

National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE): tells Brits if their life is worth living- in actual dollars and cents. As the NYTimes states, its job is to develop “a standard method of rationing. NICE has decided that Britain, except in rare cases, can afford only £15,000, or about $22,750, to save six months of a citizen’s life.”
(http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/health/03nice.html)

So, the average one-bedroom apartment in Manhattan is worth way more than a Brits’ life!(New York City Real Estate | MNS is Real Impact Real Estate)
That the essence of your socialized medicine.

So, it has concluded that if you have breast cancer, the drug Tykerb, shown to delay the progression of the disease, is worth more than you are “despite Glaxo’s offer to pay for the first 12 weeks of treatment.”
U.K. Says Tykerb Isn’t Worth Cost, Even With 12 Free Weeks - Health Blog - WSJ

Socialism is based on the collective, the herd, whereas our system...until recently...honored the life and wellbeing of individuals.
Which do you want?

the average income in Britian is 2600 pounds or approx $41,000
Income in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
average earning in the US were $46,000
Income in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
not exactly the huge difference

so now youre gonna use NYC, which is one of the most expensive cities in the world to live in as a comparison? thats a bad comparison.... but if you want more proof, it actually costs more to live in London than NYC. Housing in Toyko is much higher too, and the also have universal health care as well.

Top 50 Highest Cost of Living Cities In The World

out system does not honor the individual life, its values profit. until the health care law was passed, it was legal for insurance companies to drop your coverage if you became too expensive or got sick. tell me how that honor individual life.

the essence of universal health care to provide equal access of health care services to all people no matter how much they make or how much they are worth. thus everyone gets equal treatment. the way the current system works is that those with the most money get access to better services than those with the least.

if you really value human and individual life so much, why are you advocating for different levels of care to different classes of society? is a human life really worth less than the value of a dollar?

Coverage Denied: How the Current Health Insurance System Leaves Millions Behind
In 45 states across the country, insurance companies can discriminate against people based on their pre-existing conditions when they try to purchase health insurance directly from insurance companies in the individual insurance market.4 Insurers can deny them coverage, charge higher premiums, and/or refuse to cover that particular medical condition. A recent national survey estimated that 12.6 million non-elderly adults5 – 36 percent of those who tried to purchase health insurance directly from an insurance company in the individual insurance market – were in fact discriminated against because of a pre-existing condition in the previous three years.

but i guess youre ok with denying people health care...... that makes you a real christian

1. There was no groundswell to change healthcare until the Left decided that they could create a crisis, and certain dolts would fall for it....(if the shoe fits)...


“…while the numbers clearly show that people are happier with their own health care than with the system as a whole, there is no dimension with which their happier than the quality of care they personally receive…a mere 15 percent complain about the quality of care they receive.”.(New England Journal of Medicine)
Health Beat: The Quality Question

The most recent ABC News/Washington Post poll (June 21) finds that 83 percent of Americans are very satisfied or somewhat satisfied with the quality of their health care, and 81 percent are similarly satisfied with their health insurance.

They have good reason to be. If you're diagnosed with cancer, you have a better chance of surviving it in the United States than anywhere else, according to the Concord Five Continent Study. And the World Health Organization ranked the United States No. 1 out of 191 countries for being responsive to patients' needs, including providing timely treatments and a choice of doctors.
Defend Your Healthcare

Among insured Americans, 82 percent rate their health coverage positively. Among insured people who've experienced a serious or chronic illness or injury in their family in the last year, an enormous 91 percent are satisfied with their care, and 86 percent are satisfied with their coverage.
ABCNEWS.com : U.S. Health Care Concerns Increase

2. Everyone in the United States had healthcare.
Everyone.

3. The small percentage of chronically uninsured could be taken care of via government. So, ask yourself why it was necessary to destroy a system that worked well for the large majority...
....c'mon....you can figure it out.

4. The essential different is whether one believes in the free market, or, as you do, that bureaucrats will do a better job...think Motor Vehicle Department, or Post Office.

A person should go to PC's links and read the entire link, it seems that PC cherry-picked the articles, except for the Defend Your Healthcare link, that is a hugely anti-Obamacare and keep the status quo site,,,no bias there!

 

[Foxfyre]

A Brief History: Universal Health Care Efforts in the US | Physicians for a National Health Program

Not that it is all that important, but it should be noted that the "Physicians for a National Health Program" are really a leftist lay organization that can boast almost no Physicians of any sort in its leadership though it does list a lot of physicians on its board. (I'm not saying there are NO physicians associated with it but it appears that all or most of those who are already get paid by the government or a government entity.)

At least they are honest in that they bill themselves as a single issue organization. They want the private healthcare system dismantled and a government controlled single payer healthcare system throughout the country installed.

 

[PoliticalChic]

the average income in Britian is 2600 pounds or approx $41,000
Income in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
average earning in the US were $46,000
Income in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
not exactly the huge difference

so now youre gonna use NYC, which is one of the most expensive cities in the world to live in as a comparison? thats a bad comparison.... but if you want more proof, it actually costs more to live in London than NYC. Housing in Toyko is much higher too, and the also have universal health care as well.

Top 50 Highest Cost of Living Cities In The World

out system does not honor the individual life, its values profit. until the health care law was passed, it was legal for insurance companies to drop your coverage if you became too expensive or got sick. tell me how that honor individual life.

the essence of universal health care to provide equal access of health care services to all people no matter how much they make or how much they are worth. thus everyone gets equal treatment. the way the current system works is that those with the most money get access to better services than those with the least.

if you really value human and individual life so much, why are you advocating for different levels of care to different classes of society? is a human life really worth less than the value of a dollar?

Coverage Denied: How the Current Health Insurance System Leaves Millions Behind
In 45 states across the country, insurance companies can discriminate against people based on their pre-existing conditions when they try to purchase health insurance directly from insurance companies in the individual insurance market.4 Insurers can deny them coverage, charge higher premiums, and/or refuse to cover that particular medical condition. A recent national survey estimated that 12.6 million non-elderly adults5 – 36 percent of those who tried to purchase health insurance directly from an insurance company in the individual insurance market – were in fact discriminated against because of a pre-existing condition in the previous three years.

but i guess youre ok with denying people health care...... that makes you a real christian

1. There was no groundswell to change healthcare until the Left decided that they could create a crisis, and certain dolts would fall for it....(if the shoe fits)...


“…while the numbers clearly show that people are happier with their own health care than with the system as a whole, there is no dimension with which their happier than the quality of care they personally receive…a mere 15 percent complain about the quality of care they receive.”.(New England Journal of Medicine)
Health Beat: The Quality Question

The most recent ABC News/Washington Post poll (June 21) finds that 83 percent of Americans are very satisfied or somewhat satisfied with the quality of their health care, and 81 percent are similarly satisfied with their health insurance.

They have good reason to be. If you're diagnosed with cancer, you have a better chance of surviving it in the United States than anywhere else, according to the Concord Five Continent Study. And the World Health Organization ranked the United States No. 1 out of 191 countries for being responsive to patients' needs, including providing timely treatments and a choice of doctors.
Defend Your Healthcare

Among insured Americans, 82 percent rate their health coverage positively. Among insured people who've experienced a serious or chronic illness or injury in their family in the last year, an enormous 91 percent are satisfied with their care, and 86 percent are satisfied with their coverage.
ABCNEWS.com : U.S. Health Care Concerns Increase

2. Everyone in the United States had healthcare.
Everyone.

3. The small percentage of chronically uninsured could be taken care of via government. So, ask yourself why it was necessary to destroy a system that worked well for the large majority...
....c'mon....you can figure it out.

4. The essential different is whether one believes in the free market, or, as you do, that bureaucrats will do a better job...think Motor Vehicle Department, or Post Office.

A person should go to PC's links and read the entire link, it seems that PC cherry-picked the articles, except for the Defend Your Healthcare link, that is a hugely anti-Obamacare and keep the status quo site,,,no bias there!

"...that is a hugely anti-Obamacare..."

Wow!
Wonderful endorsement!

It will, I'm certain, be a great resource, therefore, for anyone with any sense!


But you, being just south of sane, would be left as confused as a cow on AstroTurf.

 

[Vidi]

What I am saying is that you have fallen victim to the anti-American propaganda.

Have you queried the sources for the link you provided?

So we have been told that the United States is listed at number 37 in world ranking for health care. Here is why only fools and America-bashers attribute any significance to this rating: WHO/UN states that their data “is hampered by the weakness of routine information systems and insufficient attention to research” and when they couldn’t find data, they “developed [data] through a variety of techniques.” WHO accepts whatever governments tell them, including reputable regimes such as Castro’s Cuba.
WHO | Message from the Director-General

The oh-so-political WHO/UN is not thrilled with governments like the US, as they have determined that we do not have a progressive-enough tax system. This is one of the criteria for judging our healthcare.
WHO, “World Health Organization Assesses
theWorld’sHealth Systems,” press release, undated,
http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre
/press_release/en/index.html.

1. Health Level: 25 percent
2. Health Distribution: 25 percent
3. Responsiveness: 12.5 percent
4. Responsiveness Distribution: 12.5 percent
5. Financial Fairness: 25 percent
http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp101.pdf

After an intensive survey of over 1000 respondents, half of whom were members of UN staff, they designed a measurement of healthcare in which 62.5% of the criteria of their healthcare study on some type of “equality!”
WHO | The world health report 2000 - Health systems: improving performance

Note that the United States suffers in the WHO/UN healthcare ratings due to a definition of fairness which reads: “the smallest feasible differences between individuals and groups.” Therefore a poor nation that does not have our level of expensive or experimental treatment, and therefore lets all suffers die, would have a higher rating than the US.
This is not to imply that only the rich in America can get the ‘expensive’ treatment, since there are many options such as a)getting a loan, b) asking a family member or a charity for help, c) find a doctor, hospital, or drug company willing to work at a reduced rate. All are common.
And because we have rich people who pay a great deal for the best healthcare, enabling research and development, the end result is that this brings costs down and makes treatment affordable for everyone.

Grow up.
Wise up.

Facts that show blind patriotism is based on false premises is not anti American. In fact, showing that we are falling behind and demanding that we fulfill the potential that this great country has is true patriotism.

Your entire post is filled with inaccurate nonsense.

It's like you added 2 and 2 and got starfish.

You can't really believe they couldn't find data...in the US...

And it's the rich people that make us great LOL

Wow, they really saw you coming didn't they?

You are a silly, juvenile fellow...and probably will not realize how you have been manipulated...

But here is some indirect evidence that you should consider. If I am not correct to a far greater degree than you are about healthcare in the United States, and your master on the Left are the correct ones....

....how do you account for the fact that everything that Obama told you would be true about ObamaCare has and is proving to be lies?


...doesn't cover everyone

...premiums up, not down- doesn't “bend the cost curve downward"

...won't be able to keep your own doctor

...cuts funding to Medicare

...CBO now admits it will cost over twice as much. “That is why I have pledged that I will not sign health insurance reform that adds even one dime to our deficit over the next decade.”

..."Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase." Check this out: JCT: Healthcare law to sock middle class with a $3.9 billion tax increase in 2019 - The Hill's On The Money

So...are you going to look at all the lies of the Left, but continue to put your faith in what they tell you?
Does that make sense?

That's easy.

Premiums haven't gone down because the 80-85% rule will only drive prices down once the mandate kicks in and even then it will be a full year before they do.

Almost everything else you mentioned were concessions made to the NeoCons.

And sorry, but you folks can't decry the CBO as liars and pukes in one thread and then call them a credible source in another. One or the other, but not both.

 

[Meister]

Facts that show blind patriotism is based on false premises is not anti American. In fact, showing that we are falling behind and demanding that we fulfill the potential that this great country has is true patriotism.

Your entire post is filled with inaccurate nonsense.

It's like you added 2 and 2 and got starfish.

You can't really believe they couldn't find data...in the US...

And it's the rich people that make us great LOL

Wow, they really saw you coming didn't they?

You are a silly, juvenile fellow...and probably will not realize how you have been manipulated...

But here is some indirect evidence that you should consider. If I am not correct to a far greater degree than you are about healthcare in the United States, and your master on the Left are the correct ones....

....how do you account for the fact that everything that Obama told you would be true about ObamaCare has and is proving to be lies?


...doesn't cover everyone

...premiums up, not down- doesn't “bend the cost curve downward"

...won't be able to keep your own doctor

...cuts funding to Medicare

...CBO now admits it will cost over twice as much. “That is why I have pledged that I will not sign health insurance reform that adds even one dime to our deficit over the next decade.”

..."Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase." Check this out: JCT: Healthcare law to sock middle class with a $3.9 billion tax increase in 2019 - The Hill's On The Money

So...are you going to look at all the lies of the Left, but continue to put your faith in what they tell you?
Does that make sense?

That's easy.

Premiums haven't gone down because the 80-85% rule will only drive prices down once the mandate kicks in and even then it will be a full year before they do.

Almost everything else you mentioned were concessions made to the NeoCons.

And sorry, but you folks can't decry the CBO as liars and pukes in one thread and then call them a credible source in another. One or the other, but not both.

The CBO only gives the numbers on the information given. Seems other things are sneaking in and also, CLASS was going to be a major source of funding, and it's been eliminated. But...I really don't think that is of any concern to socialists.

 

[Meister]

Was there a number given for a projection addressing 'fraud and waste' to the CBO?
We all know it's going to happen, and some major waste and fraud going on with Medicare right now. just a thought.....

 

[Vidi]

You are a silly, juvenile fellow...and probably will not realize how you have been manipulated...

But here is some indirect evidence that you should consider. If I am not correct to a far greater degree than you are about healthcare in the United States, and your master on the Left are the correct ones....

....how do you account for the fact that everything that Obama told you would be true about ObamaCare has and is proving to be lies?


...doesn't cover everyone

...premiums up, not down- doesn't “bend the cost curve downward"

...won't be able to keep your own doctor

...cuts funding to Medicare

...CBO now admits it will cost over twice as much. “That is why I have pledged that I will not sign health insurance reform that adds even one dime to our deficit over the next decade.”

..."Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase." Check this out: JCT: Healthcare law to sock middle class with a $3.9 billion tax increase in 2019 - The Hill's On The Money

So...are you going to look at all the lies of the Left, but continue to put your faith in what they tell you?
Does that make sense?

That's easy.

Premiums haven't gone down because the 80-85% rule will only drive prices down once the mandate kicks in and even then it will be a full year before they do.

Almost everything else you mentioned were concessions made to the NeoCons.

And sorry, but you folks can't decry the CBO as liars and pukes in one thread and then call them a credible source in another. One or the other, but not both.

The CBO only gives the numbers on the information given. Seems other things are sneaking in and also, CLASS was going to be a major source of funding, and it's been eliminated. But...I really don't think that is of any concern to socialists.

Actually, funding is a MAJOR concern for Socialists, and you'd know that if you had been paying attention. After all, why tax the rich unless you need funding?

Obviously, the NeoCons think missles grow free in the wild on trees picked by non union minimum wage workers, hence their inability to actually fund the government.

 

[Vidi]

Was there a number given for a projection addressing 'fraud and waste' to the CBO?
We all know it's going to happen, and some major waste and fraud going on with Medicare right now. just a thought.....

Absolutely true.

But as we can't regulate anything or enforce the regulations we have due to lack of funding, I guess fraud and waste will just have to continue.

So much for fiscal responsibility.

 

[Meister]

That's easy.

Premiums haven't gone down because the 80-85% rule will only drive prices down once the mandate kicks in and even then it will be a full year before they do.

Almost everything else you mentioned were concessions made to the NeoCons.

And sorry, but you folks can't decry the CBO as liars and pukes in one thread and then call them a credible source in another. One or the other, but not both.

The CBO only gives the numbers on the information given. Seems other things are sneaking in and also, CLASS was going to be a major source of funding, and it's been eliminated. But...I really don't think that is of any concern to socialists.

Actually, funding is a MAJOR concern for Socialists, and you'd know that if you had been paying attention. After all, why tax the rich unless you need funding?

Obviously, the NeoCons think missles grow free in the wild on trees picked by non union minimum wage workers, hence their inability to actually fund the government.

Socialists think that if it's not a union job, it's a minimum wage job.

 

[Meister]

Was there a number given for a projection addressing 'fraud and waste' to the CBO?
We all know it's going to happen, and some major waste and fraud going on with Medicare right now. just a thought.....

Absolutely true.

But as we can't regulate anything or enforce the regulations we have due to lack of funding, I guess fraud and waste will just have to continue.

So much for fiscal responsibility.

Yes, and so much for the CBO's numbers.

 

[Vidi]

Was there a number given for a projection addressing 'fraud and waste' to the CBO?
We all know it's going to happen, and some major waste and fraud going on with Medicare right now. just a thought.....

Absolutely true.

But as we can't regulate anything or enforce the regulations we have due to lack of funding, I guess fraud and waste will just have to continue.

So much for fiscal responsibility.

Yes, and so much for the CBO's numbers.

Like I said, either the CBO is a credible source or it's not. I'm new here so I'll accept the judgement of the old timers here. If its not credible, I won't use them as a source.

But if it is credible, then their numbers are going to prove both sides.

 

[NoNukes]

Why are no socialist countries switching to our system of private insurance???


Oh, because US healthcare costs more and it provides worse outcomes.


Success is self-evident CONZ.
Point to all the demonstrations in socialist coutries DEMANDING they change to our system.
Point to the cost savings of the U.S. system.
Explain how having a for profit middleman saves money on healthcare spending?

If socialist countries have a more copacetic form of healthcare....what's keeping you here?

Do you choose a country strictly for it's healthcare?