If Republicans are going to call you a liar, shouldn't they at least have to prove it?

[Harry Dresden]

learn to read....i have always had negative things to say about both parties....and here i was talking about dean....not a party...duh....

Sure Bubba, sure, you just happen to vote GOPer most times right? lol

why dont you show me a post in here where i have ever said the GOP is who i support ..i have 40,000 of them,so it should be easy....after about a thousand of them and still cant find one, then you will know what i know about you......you are one of them people with your head so far up your parties collective ass, who think if someone does not agree with them,they must be from the other tribe.....what else can they be.....

Right, a guy who I'm POSITIVE supported Romney, Bush, Reagan, etc, doesn't support the GOP, lol

you are positive?....you do realize i am on record here bad mouthing all 3 of those jerks,right?.....you are just digging a deeper hole for yourself....dumbass...

Tea baggers are notorious for "bad mouthing" the GOP then stepping up and voting for them. You saying you didn't vote for them? lol

now im a teabagger.....well thats a first time for that....lol....

 

[Dad2three]

This Terrible Chart Shows the Change in Food Stamp Participation Over the Last 10 Years TheBlaze.com

One of the problems with rd is that there is no limit to his wants. There will never be enough welfare, there will never be enough food stamps, there will never be enough student loans, there will never be enough cuts to the military, there will never be enough rds advocating spending other people's money, so because he is incapable of showing any restraint he really incapable of garnering any respect from serious people be they Dems or repubs.

I don't know how vets got into the snap conversation but those terrible republicans look like,they trimmed ten dollars a month off of snap benefits. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. Hmmm let's see that means finding one extra hour of work in the course of a month, under the table preferably. And the problem with the stats is that they say vets live in "households" that receive food stamps so that does not mean the vet is receiving them directly. Maybe his mother or sister is getting them.

Rds post are consistent though, they are consistently not worth reading.

To funny. Zero critical thinking required to be a con today. Why has SNAP went up? Hint mostly 8 years of Dubya/GOP "job creator" policies, like the US did under Reagan, "free markets" create boom and bust cycles (look to the period 1800-1913 to see this, a 2007 crash avg every 5 years).

Thanks for agreeing, the GOP cut funding for vets (and they oppose funding that helps them AS they support defunding Gov't by 10+ times as much, without offsetting)....

 

[Dad2three]

The watergate scandal was investigated with integrity by the congress. The same results would happen if this congress investigated the IRS scandal with the same thoroughness and integrity, and yes they would find impeachable offenses by Obama. Even some democrats agree the IRS scandal is more serious than watergate, but the doj is so corrupt and the administration so crooked justice will never be served, we will only have more jack in the box racial events to cover up and divert from obamas lawlessness.

Sure Bubba, sure. You know the GOP Congress is so scared of Obama NOT like the GOP House has investigated it OR COULD CHOOSE TO HAVE IT DONE OVER AND OVER LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE TO KEEP A "SCANDAL" GOING RIGHT? lol

 

[Dad2three]

Take the hit? For showing Harry DIDN'T admit he lied as the right winger posited? Sorry. Fail


Harry has done a great job of keeping the far right extremists from rolling over the more moderate (than Harry) Obama. I'm not surprised you don't get it though

Yes, I miss honest conservatives like Goldwater too, unfortunately we have Reagan as being a "moderate" today in the GOP that's how far right the GOP has gone the past 20+ years!

Don't disagree with you on how far things have gone to the right in the past 20 years.

Harry has done a great job of giving the left (and liberalism) a bad name. I know you get it, but your are just a stormtrooper.

Harry a liberal??? lol

Oh I guess if we go by Rushblo's or crazy people like the ones supporting the Tea Baggers, sure. Most normal Americans see him as a moderate conservative from Nevada, not a liberal known area!

Next you'll tell me Obama is a Marxist, lol

Why do you make stuff up ?

I didn't say Harry was a liberal. He is left of center.

If you can put down your arrogant pre-conceptions and try to digest these simple statements it might be helpful.

I don't think Harry is a liberal. I think Harry is an opportunist.

I said, Harry is giving the left (and liberalism....associated with being left...even though that is incorrect) a bad name.

Harry is not popular. Many in his party wish he'd go away.

If I wanted to see him go away, it is not because of his politics (I don't think Harry has any other that what takes care of Harry)...it is because our federal government is loaded with rancor and he has been a prime promoter of it.

The right is no better...but there is no one person as visible (in the media) as Harry.

It's not about Harry...it's about the institution.

Weird you posit shit like "make stuff up" as ALL I've done is rspond to what's written. YOUR posit was Harry was "Harry has done a great job of giving the left (and liberalism) a bad name."

Sorry, Harry ISN'T left or liberal. He's a moderate Dem from Nevada!

Weird how the right wingers elect guys who "don't believe in" Gov't or the purpose of Gov't then are shocked when they get into power and destroy US from within (see Ronnie's S&L crisis and Dubya's subprime bubble as 2 prime examples, not even talking about both gutting revenues as they ramped up UNFUNDED spending)

The #1 problem in DC (and at all 50 states) is money in politics. Money isn't speech. Corps aren't people

Yes you did make stuff up....or....

Didn't you read what I wrote ? I said "I don't think Harry is a liberal". But that does not mean that Harry hasn't given liberals a bad name. For the very reasons being discussed on another thread....liberals are tied to the left (and yes Harry is left of center....can't help that) by virtue of the media B.S. that is out there. It's unfortunate that he and you don't understand that.

Weird about what the right wing does. It only does what the left wing does. Send people to D.C. who don't give a flying fig about truth or America. Ronnie had help from a democratic congress....Georgie and his republican congress will go down as one of the biggest mistakes this country ever made.

Political power is economic power and vice versa. If and when Americans wake up, that is when they will throw out the morons on both sides who are there now and get a group that will really represent We The People.

More right wing nonsense. Shocking. "Left" huh? lol

Name the things the "left" has done? Single payer or took Romneycare that the GOP created and Heritage supported and made it GOP light?


Conservative policy NEVER works. The "left", liberal and PROGRESSIVE created the worlds largest middle class, fought for union rights, labor, environment, min wage, SS, Medicare, etc, ALL the things that created the modern US

 

[Dad2three]

Sometimes it just astounds me how brainwashed average joe republicans are. Their complete and utter lack of basic critical thinking skills turns them into pawns for the republican party.

You mean when Gruber called "stupidity of American voter" for believing Obama when he said:
"I pledge we’ll lower premiums by up to $2,500 for a typical family per year….. We’ll do it by the end of my first term as President of the United States.
"If you like your health care plan, you can keep it. If you like the doctor you have, you can keep your doctor, too."
“I don’t have to explain to you that nearly 46 million Americans don’t have health insurance coverage today."
So AFTER he LIED to get ACA passed Hussein admits 10 million counted as uninsured were not citizens!
He further lies about the 36 million "uninsured" when BEFORE ACA due to Hussein's administration ineptness 14 million were eligible for Medicaid! But the worst lie was telling us the 18 million people that make over $50,000 and are under 34 WANTED health insurance! THEY DON"T! But Hussein used that number of people that DON"T want insurance and that was a LIE!
"Up to half of all Americans have a pre-existing condition"...
A f...king lie BECAUSE that would mean 155 million (half of 310 million) couldn't get insurance..... yet 266 million have some type of health insurance!
Why would he LIE about something that affected less the 1.5 million!
To PASS ACA ! He counted on the "Stupidity of American Voters'!

Go back to the Tea Baggers zone Bubs. Right wing garbage is ALL you have

 

[Dad2three]

Sure Bubba, sure, you just happen to vote GOPer most times right? lol

why dont you show me a post in here where i have ever said the GOP is who i support ..i have 40,000 of them,so it should be easy....after about a thousand of them and still cant find one, then you will know what i know about you......you are one of them people with your head so far up your parties collective ass, who think if someone does not agree with them,they must be from the other tribe.....what else can they be.....

Right, a guy who I'm POSITIVE supported Romney, Bush, Reagan, etc, doesn't support the GOP, lol

you are positive?....you do realize i am on record here bad mouthing all 3 of those jerks,right?.....you are just digging a deeper hole for yourself....dumbass...

Tea baggers are notorious for "bad mouthing" the GOP then stepping up and voting for them. You saying you didn't vote for them? lol

now im a teabagger.....well thats a first time for that....lol....

So for the 4th time, DID you support (VOTE) for Romney, Bush or Ronnie? OOPS

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Don't disagree with you on how far things have gone to the right in the past 20 years.

Harry has done a great job of giving the left (and liberalism) a bad name. I know you get it, but your are just a stormtrooper.

Harry a liberal??? lol

Oh I guess if we go by Rushblo's or crazy people like the ones supporting the Tea Baggers, sure. Most normal Americans see him as a moderate conservative from Nevada, not a liberal known area!

Next you'll tell me Obama is a Marxist, lol

Why do you make stuff up ?

I didn't say Harry was a liberal. He is left of center.

If you can put down your arrogant pre-conceptions and try to digest these simple statements it might be helpful.

I don't think Harry is a liberal. I think Harry is an opportunist.

I said, Harry is giving the left (and liberalism....associated with being left...even though that is incorrect) a bad name.

Harry is not popular. Many in his party wish he'd go away.

If I wanted to see him go away, it is not because of his politics (I don't think Harry has any other that what takes care of Harry)...it is because our federal government is loaded with rancor and he has been a prime promoter of it.

The right is no better...but there is no one person as visible (in the media) as Harry.

It's not about Harry...it's about the institution.

Weird you posit shit like "make stuff up" as ALL I've done is rspond to what's written. YOUR posit was Harry was "Harry has done a great job of giving the left (and liberalism) a bad name."

Sorry, Harry ISN'T left or liberal. He's a moderate Dem from Nevada!

Weird how the right wingers elect guys who "don't believe in" Gov't or the purpose of Gov't then are shocked when they get into power and destroy US from within (see Ronnie's S&L crisis and Dubya's subprime bubble as 2 prime examples, not even talking about both gutting revenues as they ramped up UNFUNDED spending)

The #1 problem in DC (and at all 50 states) is money in politics. Money isn't speech. Corps aren't people

Yes you did make stuff up....or....

Didn't you read what I wrote ? I said "I don't think Harry is a liberal". But that does not mean that Harry hasn't given liberals a bad name. For the very reasons being discussed on another thread....liberals are tied to the left (and yes Harry is left of center....can't help that) by virtue of the media B.S. that is out there. It's unfortunate that he and you don't understand that.

Weird about what the right wing does. It only does what the left wing does. Send people to D.C. who don't give a flying fig about truth or America. Ronnie had help from a democratic congress....Georgie and his republican congress will go down as one of the biggest mistakes this country ever made.

Political power is economic power and vice versa. If and when Americans wake up, that is when they will throw out the morons on both sides who are there now and get a group that will really represent We The People.

More right wing nonsense. Shocking. "Left" huh? lol

Name the things the "left" has done? Single payer or took Romneycare that the GOP created and Heritage supported and made it GOP light?


Conservative policy NEVER works. The "left", liberal and PROGRESSIVE created the worlds largest middle class, fought for union rights, labor, environment, min wage, SS, Medicare, etc, ALL the things that created the modern US

"Never works"...gotta love it.

Just like Obamacare...nobody builds the report card metrics ahead of the fact. They all just argue over what is good and bad after the fact.

Define "works".

As far as "liberal"...that does not equate with the left.

Union rights had their place.

Other things have been both good and bad.

The modern U.S. isn't so great. BTW: Are your taking credit for that ?

Lol.....you can keep your list.

BTW: I am not right wing. I am unaffilated so you can save your little barbs for someone who cares.

Social Security was needed when it was formed. It is not such a good idea in the long run. Like it or not...it's not all it is cracked up to be. That isn't right wing talking points. They have no idea why it was formed...they just use it to poke their finger in the eye of the left.

I laugh at right wingers who claim Reagan had this huge expansion (which he did technically...until you did below the surface and find out what a mess he created).

I laugh at you too.

 

[AntiParty]

Parties can't notice the difference between the disabled and the ones abusing what was voted for.

Some people are trading EBT cards for drugs directly and openly with statistics. I read that many drug dealers once busted often have dozens of EBT cards.

So the Right decides its a good idea to cut funding for the disabled.

The only reason the lazy people with EBT cards that didn't need them, got them is because of the 1% lawyers and 1% doctors. In fact, many fraud cases show that the 1% doctor only lost a case to the 1% lawyer and the 1% lawyer takes his/her funding DIRECTLY from the Welfare Check that "lazy" person gets.

 

[kaz]

Whether they've bought in or not is still not clear to me.

Many, it seems on both sides, are voting against the other side.

I just have to wonder if many on the left and right are not just fed up with the stupidity of our government on both sides.

I noticed you were defending Harry Reid earlier. Unfortunately, based on what I hear, many on both sides find him to be the poster boy of politicians they'd love to see go away. Not because he's a democrat (there are plenty in the GOP that should go too), but because he really does create a sense of "untrustworthiness" in so many (again both left and right).

I know many conservatives who hate the whole right wing bullbag that flys around each election. At the same time they see no value in the other side either. It seems they tend to support those they think will do the least damage. This is not the majority of conservatives I know...just the thoughtful ones.

I, personally, really miss the Sam Nunn's of the world.

Defending Harry Reid? Oh you mean proving Harry DIDN'T admit he lied about the Moocher Romney?

My problem with conservatives and the ideology they support, it has NEVER worked as promised and they are always on the wrong side of issues.

I miss HONEST conservatives like Goldwater. Today's conservatives just follow Reagan as a (Faux) savior and continue his lying ways!

My fav quote on the problem with Gov't:

The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it.
P. J. O'Rourke

This is where you take the hit.

You see, it isn't about whether he admitted lying (he never did from what I can tell), because he didn't have to.

Most of my liberal friends wish Harry would have a heart attack. He's been a boat anchor on the image of the senate.

This what you say and there is how you say it.

Just to be clear....there are other senate dems who are the same in my estimation and a host of republicans.

While I don't agree with Bernie Sanders for the most part....I like the way he conducts himself.

I really do miss Sam Nunn.

Take the hit? For showing Harry DIDN'T admit he lied as the right winger posited? Sorry. Fail


Harry has done a great job of keeping the far right extremists from rolling over the more moderate (than Harry) Obama. I'm not surprised you don't get it though

Yes, I miss honest conservatives like Goldwater too, unfortunately we have Reagan as being a "moderate" today in the GOP that's how far right the GOP has gone the past 20+ years!

Don't disagree with you on how far things have gone to the right in the past 20 years.

Harry has done a great job of giving the left (and liberalism) a bad name. I know you get it, but your are just a stormtrooper.

Harry a liberal??? lol

Oh I guess if we go by Rushblo's or crazy people like the ones supporting the Tea Baggers, sure. Most normal Americans see him as a moderate conservative from Nevada, not a liberal known area!

Next you'll tell me Obama is a Marxist, lol

Obama is a Marxist

 

[kaz]

So no, you'll stick to the right wing talking point!

Stopped reading here. If you ever want to talk to a libertarian let me know. I've never been interested in your sick obsession with W, but whatever. It's a problem for your shrink

Sure Bubba, sure. YOU will NEVER get honest, on ANY subject. I'm shocked. Go runaway Klown boy!

Gotcha Darlene. You should be able to give me an example then, an issue I'm right on that isn't libertarian

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Defending Harry Reid? Oh you mean proving Harry DIDN'T admit he lied about the Moocher Romney?

My problem with conservatives and the ideology they support, it has NEVER worked as promised and they are always on the wrong side of issues.

I miss HONEST conservatives like Goldwater. Today's conservatives just follow Reagan as a (Faux) savior and continue his lying ways!

My fav quote on the problem with Gov't:

The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it.
P. J. O'Rourke

This is where you take the hit.

You see, it isn't about whether he admitted lying (he never did from what I can tell), because he didn't have to.

Most of my liberal friends wish Harry would have a heart attack. He's been a boat anchor on the image of the senate.

This what you say and there is how you say it.

Just to be clear....there are other senate dems who are the same in my estimation and a host of republicans.

While I don't agree with Bernie Sanders for the most part....I like the way he conducts himself.

I really do miss Sam Nunn.

Take the hit? For showing Harry DIDN'T admit he lied as the right winger posited? Sorry. Fail


Harry has done a great job of keeping the far right extremists from rolling over the more moderate (than Harry) Obama. I'm not surprised you don't get it though

Yes, I miss honest conservatives like Goldwater too, unfortunately we have Reagan as being a "moderate" today in the GOP that's how far right the GOP has gone the past 20+ years!

Don't disagree with you on how far things have gone to the right in the past 20 years.

Harry has done a great job of giving the left (and liberalism) a bad name. I know you get it, but your are just a stormtrooper.

Harry a liberal??? lol

Oh I guess if we go by Rushblo's or crazy people like the ones supporting the Tea Baggers, sure. Most normal Americans see him as a moderate conservative from Nevada, not a liberal known area!

Next you'll tell me Obama is a Marxist, lol

Obama is a Marxist

Kaz,

While I am not fond of Obama, I don't think that statement is supportable.

Thinking about RDeans hyperpartisan post (why does he not just ask the question in general...why does he just ask it of Republicans), let me ask you if there is a some kind of paper you'd reference that supports your claim.

Or, on what do you base your claim ?

 

[Sun Devil 92]

why dont you show me a post in here where i have ever said the GOP is who i support ..i have 40,000 of them,so it should be easy....after about a thousand of them and still cant find one, then you will know what i know about you......you are one of them people with your head so far up your parties collective ass, who think if someone does not agree with them,they must be from the other tribe.....what else can they be.....

Right, a guy who I'm POSITIVE supported Romney, Bush, Reagan, etc, doesn't support the GOP, lol

you are positive?....you do realize i am on record here bad mouthing all 3 of those jerks,right?.....you are just digging a deeper hole for yourself....dumbass...

Tea baggers are notorious for "bad mouthing" the GOP then stepping up and voting for them. You saying you didn't vote for them? lol

now im a teabagger.....well thats a first time for that....lol....

So for the 4th time, DID you support (VOTE) for Romney, Bush or Ronnie? OOPS

Who did you vote for ?

 

[kaz]

Next you'll tell me Obama is a Marxist, lol

Obama is a Marxist

Or, on what do you base your claim ?

The definition of communism, the Communist Manifesto. What does Obama or his party believe that contradicts the Communist Manifesto? In fact it's a template for their views. And they justify it with the same anti wealth, anti capitalist rhetoric on a constant bases. Start by reading the planks of the Manifesto and you will be shocked to recognize it as their platform

 

[kaz]

Harry a liberal??? lol

Oh I guess if we go by Rushblo's or crazy people like the ones supporting the Tea Baggers, sure. Most normal Americans see him as a moderate conservative from Nevada, not a liberal known area!

Harry Reid a moderate conservative?



How do you even walk leaning that far to the left?

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Remember when I said the GOP blocked the BP investigation into the Gulf Oil Spill and they cried liar? Even when I presented video from congress of Republicans blocking the investigation?

Remember when I said Republicans threatened to not pay unemployment benefits to millions of Americans unless the rich got enormous tax cuts? I proved that.

Remember when I said a Senate Republican apologized to BP because Obama was making them pay?

Remember when I said the military made the worlds fastest supercomputer out of game chips and USMB Republicans laughed and laughed. Turns out I was right.

Instead of actually proving anything, they will say "everybody knows" and then make some unproven accusation.
Then, they whine about Republicans always being attacked. Could you imagine Democrats apologizing to BP? Or sending soldiers into the wrong country? Or any of the awful things Republicans have done? There may be a few who vote Republican because this is a coalition party. There are conservatives in the Democratic Party. Besides they give cover to Republican policies.

I think If Republicans are going to scream liar, they should at least have the decency to prove it. Not that I'm calling them decent. Anyone who cuts benefits disabled veterans and school lunches for children is hardly decent. Even many of them agree with that.

What benefits have they cut from disabled vets?

This from the right wing US News and World Report:

Republicans Thank Veterans for Their Service By Cutting Food Stamps - US News

How come you never bothered to use Google?

And just think...if that asshole that you call "president" had worked with US corporations (rather than demonize them) perhaps these Vets would have JOBS to come home to - without the need for food stamps (your answer to everything).

Geeezzzz....what a thought.

Hmm...

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Next you'll tell me Obama is a Marxist, lol

Obama is a Marxist

Or, on what do you base your claim ?

The definition of communism, the Communist Manifesto. What does Obama or his party believe that contradicts the Communist Manifesto? In fact it's a template for their views. And they justify it with the same anti wealth, anti capitalist rhetoric on a constant bases. Start by reading the planks of the Manifesto and you will be shocked to recognize it as their platform

O.K., but I am trying to stay within the spirit of the thread.

Do you have a paper or something you can point me to that takes those planks and makes the comparison ?

All you've done (and I am asking you to consider the spirit of the request) is say....go look at this. Isn't it up to you to do that work ?

You made the claim....again...in the spirit of the thread, I am looking for your feedback.

 

[ClosedCaption]

He admitted he lied? Do you have a link? I'd like to see that.

He admitted it in multiple interviews, and he was proud of it and seemed to think that it helped to defeat Romney. Truly. It was disgusting.

Liar

Harry Reid is proud he lied about Mitt Romney s taxes WashingtonExaminer.com

Washington Post to Harry Reid Yeah You Lied About Romney s Taxes - Katie Pavlich

Reid Admits He Lied About Romney s Taxes Is Proud He Cost Him The Election

So NO, besides right wing spin, you can't back up your statement and are just a liar. Shocking

“I don’t regret that at all,” Reid said, claiming that he felt compelled to criticize GOP politicians funded by the Koch brothers. When asked about being called a “McCarthyite” for lying about Romney’s taxes, he replied: “Well, they can call it whatever they want. Romney didn’t win, did he?”

Politifact ruled prince harry's statement pants on fire, so you can keep telling your lies just like reid or you can learn to face facts. Like all the commies on this board I'm very sure you will remain in your typical delusional state.

Harry Reid says anonymous source told him Mitt Romney didn t pay taxes for 10 years PolitiFact

From the link and the reason it was pants on fire:

On Aug. 6, a Reid spokesman confirmed to PolitiFact that the majority leader still maintains the information came from the anonymous Bain investor. Our Truth-O-Meter guidelines say we hold officials accountable to back up their words. By those standards, Reid has not proven his allegation.

I've seen this story so many times on this board and never clicked the link or thread.

First, thanks for the links, its so hard to get those out of republicans. Second, not one link did it say Reid admitted to lying and thats the claim made by republicans.

 

[ClosedCaption]

You may be missing the point. The purpose of making the accusation isn't to demonstrate a lie by Obama, democrats or anyone else.The purpose of making the accusation is merely to make the accusation. Whether or not its true is completely irrelevant. Its whether or not it feels true. If it feels true to conservative, many will gladly believe. Many genuinely don't care if its accurate.

You're not dealing with people that have much use for evidence or can be persuaded by it. With such a group, the accusation is the evidence. Which makes the mere recitation of any claim irrefutable 'truth' for the constituency they're trying to appeal to.

 

[Wildman]

Rds post are consistent though, they are consistently not worth reading.

he and every liberscum on this forum.

 

[kaz]

Next you'll tell me Obama is a Marxist, lol

Obama is a Marxist

Or, on what do you base your claim ?

The definition of communism, the Communist Manifesto. What does Obama or his party believe that contradicts the Communist Manifesto? In fact it's a template for their views. And they justify it with the same anti wealth, anti capitalist rhetoric on a constant bases. Start by reading the planks of the Manifesto and you will be shocked to recognize it as their platform

O.K., but I am trying to stay within the spirit of the thread.

Do you have a paper or something you can point me to that takes those planks and makes the comparison ?

All you've done (and I am asking you to consider the spirit of the request) is say....go look at this. Isn't it up to you to do that work ?

You made the claim....again...in the spirit of the thread, I am looking for your feedback.

Well, in the spirit of the thread, since I'm not a Republican, I don't have to prove it....

But seriously,

1) This is a romper room thread. The Democrats call everyone who isn't left a racist, xenophobic sexist poor hating homophobe who worships corporations and the rich and can't prove any of it because it's ridiculous. I used to be a Republican, I left the party because they suck, but that isn't why.

2) I consider the planks of the Communist Manifesto to be pretty well known and clear, I'm not referring to some esoteric document. And the hurdle is pretty low, I said the Communist manifesto is the template for their platform and rhetoric. If Democrats are really not Marxists, just off the top of your head, couldn't you say wow, but here's a couple things that just don't fit that, Kaz?