Zone1 If "Judeo-Christian" Is Actually TWO Distinct Religions..........

[Quantrill]

Isaiah 53:1-12

Who would believe what we have heard? To whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? He grew up like a sapling before him, like a shoot from the parched earth; He had no majestic bearing to catch our eye, no beauty to draw us to him. He was spurned and avoided by men, a man of suffering, knowing pain, Like one from whom you turn your face, spurned, and we held him in no esteem. Yet it was our pain that he bore, our sufferings he endured. We thought of him as stricken, struck down by God and afflicted, But he was pierced for our sins, crushed for our iniquity. He bore the punishment that makes us whole, by his wounds we were healed. We had all gone astray like sheep, all following our own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all. Though harshly treated, he submitted and did not open his mouth; Like a lamb led to slaughter or a sheep silent before shearers, he did not open his mouth. Seized and condemned, he was taken away. Who would have thought any more of his destiny? For he was cut off from the land of the living, struck for the sins of his people. He was given a grave among the wicked, a burial place with evildoers, Though he had done no wrong, nor was deceit found in his mouth. But it was the LORD’s will to crush him with pain. By making his life as a reparation offering, he shall see his offspring, shall lengthen his days, and the LORD’s will shall be accomplished through him. Because of his anguish he shall see the light; because of his knowledge he shall be content; My servant, the just one, shall justify the many, their iniquity he shall bear. Therefore I will give him his portion among the many, and he shall divide the spoils with the mighty, Because he surrendered himself to death, was counted among the transgressors, Bore the sins of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

So? What's your point.

Quantrill

 

[ding]

That Christ died for all does not remove the guilt of Christ's death upon the Jews. Scripture is clear. (Acts 2:23) (Acts 2:36)

Quantrill

Nor does it remove your guilt for sinning.

 

[ding]

So? What's your point.

Quantrill

It was our pain that he bore, our sufferings he endured. He was pierced for our sins, crushed for our iniquity. He bore the punishment that makes us whole, by his wounds we were healed. We had all gone astray like sheep, all following our own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all. Though he had done no wrong, nor was deceit found in his mouth. But it was the LORD’s will to crush him with pain. By making his life as a reparation offering. My servant, the just one, shall justify the many, their iniquity he shall bear. He surrendered himself to death, was counted among the transgressors, Bore the sins of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

You should be ashamed of your failure to take accountability.

 

[shockedcanadian]

Jesus didn't 'attempt' to fulfil, all of the Old Testament, He did and still will fulfill it. Jesus did oppose the religious leaders of his day. Not just in 'appearance'.

(Mark 11:15-18) "And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.

"And he taught saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? But ye have made it a den of thieves.

"And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how thy might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine."

Many often overlook the seriousness of this event. What priests and Pharisees and religious leaders were there did nothing to stop Jesus. He acted in this manner with all authority from Heaven. And note what he said in (15:17), 'My house'. And in (John 2:16) we are told He said, 'my Father's house'. Perfect equality with the Father. And in (John 2:15) we are told He made a whip and drove them out.

I say to anyone, much less a Christian, go to Jerusalem today and walk in a synagogue and start destroying it and running the people out of it, and see the reaction. That would have been the same reaction in Jesus day had it not been Jesus that was doing it. Jesus was opposed to Judaism. Not the Old Testament Scriptures. Which He also fulfilled in this act. (John 2:17) "And the disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up." See (Ps. 69:9)

Jesus was teaching more than the Torah. He said, (Matt. 5:17) "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets..." He wasn't just talking about the Torah. He was talking about the whole Old Testament Scripture. 'The Prophets'.

Christianity is not a sect of Judaism. Jesus was opposed to Judaism and Judaism was and is opposed to Him. Judaism is the false sect of God's true faith as revealed in the Bible. Just as Judaism opposed Jesus, so it opposes Christianity.

Jesus said, (John 5:46) "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." Judaism rejects the Person of Jesus Christ. They reject Moses also. They are the false sect, not Christianity.

Quantrill

How can the origin of the Christian religion be the "false sect? Thats akin to you suggesting your mother is not the real child bearer, you are!

Jesus was a great man, a Rabbi and/or firm educator of the Torah. In my estimation he was not the Messiah. Many of his instructions are relevant and any good Jew or Gentile would be wise to follow them in principle as they overlap from their origins in the Torah.

 

[BreezeWood]

Christian theology teaches that all humanity's sins, and thus all sinners, are ultimately responsible for Jesus' death, as His sacrifice was God's plan to redeem people from sin, with specific historical actors (religious leaders, Romans, crowds) involved, but the core cause being humanity's collective sin necessitating atonement.

christianity only began in the 4th century after writing their 4th century bible and is their opinion alone of those events -

there is nothing during the contemporary time of jesus written by jesus or otherwise jesus claimed all humanity were sinners the exact opposite of the 1st century events w/ jesus the actual claim instead being - to sin no more, the requirement of self determination to acquire judgement for admission to the everlasting.

 

[BreezeWood]

No. One could say God was anti-Israel or antisemitic for the judgements He has placed upon them. But He is not. Jesus was not antisemitic, but he was anti-judaism. God's love for Israel remains and He will bring her to her favored nation status once more. But not till the judgement is finished and she acknowledges Jesus Christ as her Messiah.

Thus, just because one is a Christian, doesn't make them antisemitic either. We can still despise Judaism, which is against Jesus Christ, but we can have a love for Israel at the same time also.

Quantrill

is that even possible, a jew being anti-judaism ... then or ever. one in the same or what would they be in the preset theological state of israel.

this is true only if the heavens would send from heaven their made messiah to have deference for an undeserving select few that was never the goal of the 1st century events, jesus than their inquisition of judaism for the welfare of all humanity the jews being only equal in their deliberations.

 

[ding]

christianity only began in the 4th century after writing their 4th century bible and is their opinion alone of those events -

there is nothing during the contemporary time of jesus written by jesus or otherwise jesus claimed all humanity were sinners the exact opposite of the 1st century events w/ jesus the actual claim instead being - to sin no more, the requirement of self determination to acquire judgement for admission to the everlasting.

The first Christians - who were Jewish - worshiped Jesus as God because of what they had seen and heard. They didn't worship Jesus as God because of what had not yet been written.

Worship of Jesus began immediately after his resurrection, with women holding his feet in worship on Easter morning (Matthew 28:9), followed by the disciples worshiping him on a mountain (Matthew 28:17), and Thomas declaring "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28), confirming that devotion and worship were integral to early encounters with the risen Christ.

Biblical Evidence of Immediate Post-Resurrection Worship:

• The Women at the Tomb (Matthew 28:9): After an angel announced Jesus' resurrection, he met the women who were returning to tell the disciples; they "came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him".
• The Disciples on the Mountain (Matthew 28:17): When the eleven disciples saw the risen Jesus, "they worshiped him; but some doubted," showing worship coexisting with lingering disbelief.
• Thomas's Confession (John 20:28): After a week, when Jesus appeared to doubting Thomas, Thomas responded with the profound declaration, "My Lord and my God!" which is an act of worship.

Context and Scholarship:

• Pre-Resurrection Worship: Jesus was also worshiped during his earthly ministry, by the Magi as a child and by people healed by him (Matthew 2:11, John 9:38).
• Early Christian Practice: The rise of worshiping the exalted Jesus was a significant development in the early church, with some scholars suggesting the idea of Jesus' divinity became prominent within two decades of his death, spreading through the apostles' faith.

In essence, the biblical accounts show that worship of Jesus, both before and definitively after his resurrection, was present from the earliest days of his followers' experiences with him.

 

[Quantrill]

Nor does it remove your guilt for sinning.

I never said it did.

But you say (Acts 2:23) and (Acts 2:26) is not true. Contrary to what God is saying.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

It was our pain that he bore, our sufferings he endured. He was pierced for our sins, crushed for our iniquity. He bore the punishment that makes us whole, by his wounds we were healed. We had all gone astray like sheep, all following our own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all. Though he had done no wrong, nor was deceit found in his mouth. But it was the LORD’s will to crush him with pain. By making his life as a reparation offering. My servant, the just one, shall justify the many, their iniquity he shall bear. He surrendered himself to death, was counted among the transgressors, Bore the sins of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

You should be ashamed of your failure to take accountability.

I never said I was not a sinner.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

How can the origin of the Christian religion be the "false sect? Thats akin to you suggesting your mother is not the real child bearer, you are!

Jesus was a great man, a Rabbi and/or firm educator of the Torah. In my estimation he was not the Messiah. Many of his instructions are relevant and any good Jew or Gentile would be wise to follow them in principle as they overlap from their origins in the Torah.

The origin of the Christian faith is not the false sect of Judaism. It is based upon the true faith that God gives in the Old Testament. The Christian faith is a product of the Old Testament because both the Old Testament and New Testament were the product of God.

Judaism is a false sect that entered and ruled over the Jews.

No, Jesus was not a 'great man'. Jesus was the God/Man. And as I said, Jesus didn't just teach the Torah, He taught the Law and the Prophets.

All of Jesus teachings of the Old Testament are true and important to the believer. They have no value to the 'good people' who look for morality and wisdom.

Play the game of seeking Jesus teachings and seeking mans morality. God is not fooled. You reject the Person of Jesus Christ as the Messiah, and the Son of God, and as the God/Man, your wisdom is man made. Your morality is bullshit.

Quantrill

 

[ding]

I never said it did.

But you say (Acts 2:23) and (Acts 2:26) is not true. Contrary to what God is saying.

Quantrill

Where did I say Acts 2:23 and Acts 2:26 are not true?

 

[ding]

I never said I was not a sinner.

Quantrill

Great. Then be accountable for Christ's death. It will have a positive effect on you.

 

[Quantrill]

is that even possible, a jew being anti-judaism ... then or ever. one in the same or what would they be in the preset theological state of israel.

this is true only if the heavens would send from heaven their made messiah to have deference for an undeserving select few that was never the goal of the 1st century events, jesus than their inquisition of judaism for the welfare of all humanity the jews being only equal in their deliberations.

Yes, because Judaism is antiChrist. Or are you saying the Jews who killed Jesus Christ were not antiChrist? The majority of Israel today is antiChrist. Was Judas Iscariot a Jew? Was he antiChrist?


Jesus was opposed to Judaism and Judaism was opposed to Jesus Christ. Judaism didn't kill Jesus because they loved Him. When do you crucify someone because you love them?

Quantrill

 

[PoliticalChic]

One is not antisemitic because they recognize that Judaism, is antichristian. (Rev. 3:9) "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not...."

It is not antisemitic to recognize that Judaism of the Jews, crucified Jesus Christ. (Acts 2:22-23) (Acts 2:36)

The Roman Church's origin is found in the Book of Romans. (Rom. 1:8) "First I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world."

The Roman Church has been around a much longer time than other church's. Thus there has been much error that has crept into the Church. As is true today of the Protestant church's also. But, the Roman Church does not reject Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Saviour.

As I said earlier, this is the key. The Person of Jesus Christ, who is He? (Matt. 16:13-17) Judaism gives a resounding answer. He is not the Messiah, and certainly not the Son of God. (Matt. 26:64-68)

And Jesus said, (John 5:45-47), "...there is one that accuseth you, even Moses , in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me...." Judaism not only rejects Jesus Christ, it rejects the Old Testament writings also.

To believe this does not mean I am antisemitic. As I am not. For God will be faithful to His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And He will restore Israel to her place as the favored nation of God. But only after they come to the realization that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Son of God and Saviour. (Acts 3:17-26)

Quantrill

So, you've been a card-carrying member of Hamas for how long?

Jesus commissioned his apostles to minister to the Gentiles after His resurrection, primarily through the Great Commission in Matthew 28, telling them to "make disciples of all nations" (Gentiles), a directive clarified and emphasized before His ascension and enacted through the subsequent ministries of Peter and especially Paul, as recorded in the Book of Acts.

His ministry primarily focused on the "lost sheep of Israel," he deliberately engaged with and demonstrated compassion for Gentiles, like the Samaritan woman and the Roman centurion's servant, establishing a foundation for the gospel's later expansion to all nations, as commanded in the Great Commission after his resurrection.

...and too the Jews to heaven.

 

[ding]

...and too the Jews to heaven.

What about them?

 

[PoliticalChic]

What about them?

A lesson for you;


AI Overview



Yes, several popes, most famously
Pope St. John Paul II in 1986, called Jews "our elder brothers," a phrase later repeated by Pope Francis, emphasizing the deep spiritual bond and shared roots between Christianity and Judaism, acknowledging Jews as the first people to receive God's word and highlighting the importance of friendship and dialogue.

 

[BreezeWood]

The first Christians - who were Jewish - worshiped Jesus as God because of what they had seen and heard. They didn't worship Jesus as God because of what had not yet been written.

no one in the 1st century worshiped jesus as a god nor did jesus claim ever being one - the claim made by the jews about him, jesus would not confirm saying only that was their claim and nothing more.

it's only the opinion of what had not yet been written, four centuries latter that it is even an issue and nothing written by jesus confirms any such notion that if true would be contemporaneously confirmed which there is no record of nor in any document preserved by those that wrote the christian bible.

Jesus was also worshiped during his earthly ministry, by the Magi ...

that is not true, the magi were brought by the heavens to protect mary from the stone throwing jews to kill them if necessary - to protect mary who did not fear moses nor their madeup 10 commandments for her bravery and the beginning of the 1st century inquisition of judaism.

 

[ding]

A lesson for you;


AI Overview



Yes, several popes, most famously
Pope St. John Paul II in 1986, called Jews "our elder brothers," a phrase later repeated by Pope Francis, emphasizing the deep spiritual bond and shared roots between Christianity and Judaism, acknowledging Jews as the first people to receive God's word and highlighting the importance of friendship and dialogue.

So? Did any pope ever claim Judaeo-Christianity is one religion?

No pope has claimed Judaism and Christianity are the same religion, but recent popes, especially John Paul II and Francis, emphasize their deep, shared roots, calling Jews "brothers and sisters" and recognizing the unbroken covenant, while affirming separate paths with Christianity centered on Jesus as the fulfillment. They see a common God and Abrahamic heritage but distinguish Catholic belief in Jesus from Judaism's perspective, promoting dialogue and respect rather than conversion of Jews.

Key Papal Statements & Actions:

• Vatican II (Nostra Aetate) (1965): Declared a positive view of Judaism, rejecting supersessionism (the idea that the Church replaced Israel) and acknowledging the special covenant.
• Pope John Paul II:
  • Visited Rome's synagogue in 1986, the first papal synagogue visit.
  • Called Jews "our elder brothers and sisters in faith".
  • Emphasized shared spiritual heritage and fought antisemitism.
• Pope Benedict XVI: Affirmed the irrevocable covenant with Israel but called for further theological reflection on its meaning.
• Pope Francis:
  • Repeatedly stresses the unique bond, stating Jews' covenant with God was never revoked and they are "brothers and sisters in the faith".
  • Advocates for dialogue, seeing shared roots in the "family of God".

The Distinction:

• Catholic teaching holds that Christianity emerged from Judaism but finds its fulfillment in Jesus Christ, a core difference from Jewish belief.
• Popes affirm that Jews are "participants in God's salvation" through their covenant, but Christians witness to Jesus as the source of salvation for all, requiring a different approach to evangelization with Jews than with other non-Christian faiths.

In essence, popes see a profound, common origin and a shared God, fostering a unique "Judeo-Christian" relationship, but maintain distinct theological identities, with Christianity proclaiming Jesus as Lord and Savior.

 

[BreezeWood]

So, you've been a card-carrying member of Hamas for how long?

you are a joke ...

 

[ding]

no one in the 1st century worshiped jesus as a god nor did jesus claim ever being one - the claim made by the jews about him, jesus would not confirm saying only that was their claim and nothing more.

it's only the opinion of what had not yet been written, four centuries latter that it is even an issue and nothing written by jesus confirms any such notion that if true would be contemporaneously confirmed which there is no record of nor in any document preserved by those that wrote the christian bible.



that is not true, the magi were brought by the heavens to protect mary from the stone throwing jews to kill them if necessary - to protect mary who did not fear moses nor their madeup 10 commandments for her bravery and the beginning of the 1st century inquisition of judaism.

Non-Christian historians like Pliny the Younger (c. 112 AD) and Tacitus (c. 116 AD) recorded that early Christians worshipped Jesus as a god, confirming that by the late 1st/early 2nd century, followers viewed him divinely, with Pliny noting hymns sung "to Christ, as to a god" and Tacitus mentioning "Christus" as the founder executed by Pilate, corroborating early Christian beliefs from outside sources.

Flavius Josephus did not explicitly record that Jesus was worshiped as God in a manner a Christian would use, but his writings do mention that Christians worshipped him as divine or as the Christ.

The original core of Josephus's text, as reconstructed by most modern scholars, likely stated the following facts about Jesus from a non-Christian, historical perspective:

• He was a wise and virtuous teacher.
• He performed startling or surprising deeds.
• He gained a significant following among both Jews and Greeks.
• He was condemned to the cross by Pontius Pilate at the instigation of leading Jewish men.
• His followers did not abandon their devotion to him after his crucifixion.
• They reported that he appeared to them alive again on the third day.
• He was referred to as the Messiah/Christ by his followers.

Flavius Josephus, a prominent Jewish historian, lived from approximately A.D. 37 to around A.D. 100, making him a near-contemporary of Jesus and a crucial source for 1st-century Jewish history, particularly the Jewish-Roman War (66-73 CE). Born in Jerusalem, he was a priest who became a general, then surrendered to the Romans, adopted the family name "Flavius," and documented his era's events from Rome.

Key Dates & Details:

• Born: c. 37 CE in Jerusalem.
• Died: c. 100 CE, likely in Rome.
• Major Works:
  
  The Jewish War
  ,
  Antiquities of the Jews
  ,
  Against Apion
  
  .
  • Significance: His writings provide invaluable eyewitness accounts for the history of Second Temple Judaism and early Christianity.