- Thread starter
- #241
Well then, I guess you can explain how they can exist without Judaism.
One religion....Judeo-Christianity.
That was Jesus' view.
Zone1 If "Judeo-Christian" Is Actually TWO Distinct Religions..........
- Thread starter PoliticalChic
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One religion....Judeo-Christianity.
That was Jesus' view.
- Thread starter
- #242
Not your view, but that of Jesus.
Judaism killed Jesus Christ. Christ was not opposed to the Old Testament. He was clear that the Old Testament was all about Him. The religious leaders , the Rabbis, Pharisees, Judaism, were in opposition to Jesus.
Judaism plotted Christ's death. Judaism desired to have Christ killed instead of being set free, which is what Pilate tried to do.
And go to any Orthodox Judaism synagogue today and tell them you are a follower of Jesus Christ and see where that gets you.
Quantrill
Yes, I can. Christianity diverged from Judaism primarily by accepting Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God, a core rejection by mainstream Judaism, and by de-emphasizing the binding nature of Mosaic Law (Torah) for followers, especially Gentiles, focusing instead on a New Covenant through faith in Jesus. Key factors included theological disagreements over Jesus' divinity, the inclusion of non-Jews (Gentiles) into the faith without full Jewish conversion, and historical events like Roman conflicts that forced clearer distinctions, leading to separate institutions and practices over the first few centuries CE.
If Christ died for the forgiveness of sins, then all sinners had hand in his death. Even you and even me.
- Thread starter
- #246
The thread is, in reality, a discussion of anti-Semitism.
Lots have, as you did, state that Judaism and Christainity are two distinct religions, notwithstanding the numerous consistencies, and the actual testimony of Jesus Christ.
Yet I can and have named numerous serious and fI undamental differences between Cathoicism and Protestanism and yet no claim that they are two distinct and separate religions.
There is only one explanation .
I couldn't have proven my point withoout you.
- Thread starter
- #247
"Christianity diverged from Judaism"
Hardly.
Jesus was born a Jew, died a Jew and never denied his lineage.
Matthew 5:18, the eighteenth verse of the fifth chapter of the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament and is part of the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus has just reported that he came not to destroy the law, but fulfil it. In this verse this claim is reinforced.
Matthew 5:17–18 is a key text for interpreting the Sermon on the Mount and the entire gospel of Matthew:
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Here Jesus says that not one iota (jot) or dot (tittle) will pass away from the law. These most likely refer to the smallest strokes of the Hebrew alphabet, indicating that the Old Testament is completely trustworthy, even to the smallest detail. This is consistent with Jesus’ attitude elsewhere. Never do we find Jesus disagreeing with Scripture.
There is a single religion based on the Ten Commandments......the Judeo-Christian faith.
Clearly Jesus said the very opposite of what you say.
Why is that?
BreezeWood
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jesus, the first century events repudiated judaism: false commandments, religion of apartheid, hereditary idolatry, heavenly personifications that never occurred et al and is in extension the other desert religions containing the same false commandments, liturgy as judaism ...
the true religion having been reestablished by the conflagration of noah, self determination the same from that time to the present day.
Well, you can go back farther and say God had Jesus killed, as it was always the plan of God. But, in the outworking of it in the flow of history, it was Judaism of the Jews, that killed Christ.
(Acts 2:22-23) "Ye men of Israel....Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."
(Acts 2:36) "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."
But of course it is your will that that didn't happen. That's just a story the Israelites have crafted to create a moral people....you say. Those Scriptures mean nothing to you. Can you tell me what they really mean?
Quantrill
One is not antisemitic because they recognize that Judaism, is antichristian. (Rev. 3:9) "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not...."
It is not antisemitic to recognize that Judaism of the Jews, crucified Jesus Christ. (Acts 2:22-23) (Acts 2:36)
The Roman Church's origin is found in the Book of Romans. (Rom. 1:8) "First I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world."
The Roman Church has been around a much longer time than other church's. Thus there has been much error that has crept into the Church. As is true today of the Protestant church's also. But, the Roman Church does not reject Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Saviour.
As I said earlier, this is the key. The Person of Jesus Christ, who is He? (Matt. 16:13-17) Judaism gives a resounding answer. He is not the Messiah, and certainly not the Son of God. (Matt. 26:64-68)
And Jesus said, (John 5:45-47), "...there is one that accuseth you, even Moses , in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me...." Judaism not only rejects Jesus Christ, it rejects the Old Testament writings also.
To believe this does not mean I am antisemitic. As I am not. For God will be faithful to His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And He will restore Israel to her place as the favored nation of God. But only after they come to the realization that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Son of God and Saviour. (Acts 3:17-26)
Quantrill
shockedcanadian
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Jesus taught the Old Testament as the authoritative word of G-d, but he also attempted to fulfill it and sometimes challenged the rigid interpretations imposed by religious leaders of his time, which could make it appear as though he was defying certain aspects.
This isn't a simple either/or; his approach was to affirm the Scriptures' divine origin while revealing their deeper intent and bringing them to completion through his life, death, and resurrection.
A key statement from Jesus himself clarifies his stance: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them". He was teaching the Torah, after all, he didnt write the New Testament obviously, so what other book would be the authority?
Therefore, at the end of the day, the greatest difference in terms of beliefs, (not rituals), is whether you believe Jesus was the Mashiach or not. If you believe he was, you are a member of Christianity, what is in effect a sect of Judaism.
BreezeWood
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in truth for that terminology one would have to be religious in the persuasions of those applicable bibles which is exactly what would define all christians as being such making all christians unequivocally antisemitic that equally is problematic as the heavens would never provide a savior for any specific group or for all humanity as that being the goal set by the heavens for humanity to save themselves ...
- proving again the goal set during the time of noah is the only way to attain judgement and admission to the everlasting.
Jesus commissioned his apostles to minister to the Gentiles after His resurrection, primarily through the Great Commission in Matthew 28, telling them to "make disciples of all nations" (Gentiles), a directive clarified and emphasized before His ascension and enacted through the subsequent ministries of Peter and especially Paul, as recorded in the Book of Acts.
His ministry primarily focused on the "lost sheep of Israel," he deliberately engaged with and demonstrated compassion for Gentiles, like the Samaritan woman and the Roman centurion's servant, establishing a foundation for the gospel's later expansion to all nations, as commanded in the Great Commission after his resurrection.
Christian theology teaches that all humanity's sins, and thus all sinners, are ultimately responsible for Jesus' death, as His sacrifice was God's plan to redeem people from sin, with specific historical actors (religious leaders, Romans, crowds) involved, but the core cause being humanity's collective sin necessitating atonement.
Jesus didn't 'attempt' to fulfil, all of the Old Testament, He did and still will fulfill it. Jesus did oppose the religious leaders of his day. Not just in 'appearance'.
(Mark 11:15-18) "And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
"And he taught saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? But ye have made it a den of thieves.
"And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how thy might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine."
Many often overlook the seriousness of this event. What priests and Pharisees and religious leaders were there did nothing to stop Jesus. He acted in this manner with all authority from Heaven. And note what he said in (15:17), 'My house'. And in (John 2:16) we are told He said, 'my Father's house'. Perfect equality with the Father. And in (John 2:15) we are told He made a whip and drove them out.
I say to anyone, much less a Christian, go to Jerusalem today and walk in a synagogue and start destroying it and running the people out of it, and see the reaction. That would have been the same reaction in Jesus day had it not been Jesus that was doing it. Jesus was opposed to Judaism. Not the Old Testament Scriptures. Which He also fulfilled in this act. (John 2:17) "And the disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up." See (Ps. 69:9)
Jesus was teaching more than the Torah. He said, (Matt. 5:17) "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets..." He wasn't just talking about the Torah. He was talking about the whole Old Testament Scripture. 'The Prophets'.
Christianity is not a sect of Judaism. Jesus was opposed to Judaism and Judaism was and is opposed to Him. Judaism is the false sect of God's true faith as revealed in the Bible. Just as Judaism opposed Jesus, so it opposes Christianity.
Jesus said, (John 5:46) "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." Judaism rejects the Person of Jesus Christ. They reject Moses also. They are the false sect, not Christianity.
Quantrill
No. One could say God was anti-Israel or antisemitic for the judgements He has placed upon them. But He is not. Jesus was not antisemitic, but he was anti-judaism. God's love for Israel remains and He will bring her to her favored nation status once more. But not till the judgement is finished and she acknowledges Jesus Christ as her Messiah.
Thus, just because one is a Christian, doesn't make them antisemitic either. We can still despise Judaism, which is against Jesus Christ, but we can have a love for Israel at the same time also.
Quantrill
So you don't believe the verses I just gave you. Of course not. It's just something the Israelites crafted to create a moral people.
Quantrill
Just because Satan quoted scripture, that didn't mean he was right about it.
Bible verses point to various groups and humanity as a whole being involved in Jesus' death, with Acts 2:23 specifically stating "you crucified and killed" (referring to people in Jerusalem), while Romans 5:8 emphasizes that Christ died for us while we were still sinners, showing our collective sin as the ultimate cause, alongside Jewish leaders and Roman soldiers carrying out the execution as part of God's plan.
Verses Directly Mentioning Those Involved:
- Acts 2:23: "This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men" (referring to the crowd and authorities).
- Acts 3:14-15: Peter tells the people, "You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. You killed the Prince of life, but God raised him from the dead".
- Luke 23:21: The crowd cries out, "Crucify him! Crucify him!" before Pilate.
- Matthew 27:24-25: Pilate washes his hands, but the crowd accepts responsibility, saying, "His blood be on us and on our children!".
- Romans 5:8: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us".
- 1 Peter 2:24: "He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross".
- Isaiah 53:6 (Prophecy): "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all".
Isaiah 53:1-12
Who would believe what we have heard? To whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? He grew up like a sapling before him, like a shoot from the parched earth; He had no majestic bearing to catch our eye, no beauty to draw us to him. He was spurned and avoided by men, a man of suffering, knowing pain, Like one from whom you turn your face, spurned, and we held him in no esteem. Yet it was our pain that he bore, our sufferings he endured. We thought of him as stricken, struck down by God and afflicted, But he was pierced for our sins, crushed for our iniquity. He bore the punishment that makes us whole, by his wounds we were healed. We had all gone astray like sheep, all following our own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all. Though harshly treated, he submitted and did not open his mouth; Like a lamb led to slaughter or a sheep silent before shearers, he did not open his mouth. Seized and condemned, he was taken away. Who would have thought any more of his destiny? For he was cut off from the land of the living, struck for the sins of his people. He was given a grave among the wicked, a burial place with evildoers, Though he had done no wrong, nor was deceit found in his mouth. But it was the LORD’s will to crush him with pain. By making his life as a reparation offering, he shall see his offspring, shall lengthen his days, and the LORD’s will shall be accomplished through him. Because of his anguish he shall see the light; because of his knowledge he shall be content; My servant, the just one, shall justify the many, their iniquity he shall bear. Therefore I will give him his portion among the many, and he shall divide the spoils with the mighty, Because he surrendered himself to death, was counted among the transgressors, Bore the sins of many, and interceded for the transgressors.
That Christ died for all does not remove the guilt of Christ's death upon the Jews. Scripture is clear. (Acts 2:23) (Acts 2:36)
Quantrill
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