Zone1 If God were real, you wouldn’t need a book

[The Irish Ram]

Right.... if it grieved him then he's more sick than if he did it because he felt like it.

He wanted to preserve the human race did he? The human race he made that was violence? And the offspring from these inbreds did what, exactly? WW1, WW2, pogroms, holocausts, all kinds of things. Clearly didn't work, did it?

He did it to preserve the human race.
As for God's intervention. God has to be 100% merciful and 100% just. Adam had dominion over the earth. That role was surrendered to Satan by Adam for a specific time. We know that because of what Satan offered Jesus in the desert. God will honor that conveyance until the time comes for Christ to come back and defeat Satan.
When Christ died in our place, it made those who accept that gift, sin free and Satan has no charges to make against us.
Accept the gift Christ offers us, and be sure of your eternity is secure.

 

[frigidweirdo]

He did it to preserve the human race.
As for God's intervention. God has to be 100% merciful and 100% just. Adam had dominion over the earth. That role was surrendered to Satan by Adam for a specific time. We know that because of what Satan offered Jesus in the desert. God will honor that until the time comes for Christ to come back and defeat Satan. When Christ died in our place, it made those who accept that gift, without sin and Satan has no charges to make against us.
Accept the gift Christ offers us, and be sure of your eternity is secure.

Why would God care less whether he preserved the human race or not?

Do you know how many mass extinctions there have been on this planet alone?

Potentially they are millions of races of intelligent beings in this universe. And he seemed to not like intelligent beings because they're violent.

Why does God have to be anything?

Is he merciful? Doesn't look like it. Making one animal eat another animal is "just" and "merciful"????

And who is Satan? God is the only God, but Satan seems to be smarter than God. As Satan can get people to hate a dude who went and killed most humans.... I wonder how he does it "dude, that God dude over there, he's a mass murderer" "yeah, he's bad"

And God can do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING but can't be bothered to stop Satan being a bit of a prick. Why not? Someone said that God allows Satan to do all this stuff.

 

[buttercup]

Why would God care less whether he preserved the human race or not?

What an odd question. Because it's His creation! And because God's nature is love. Why do you think God would create human beings in the first place if He didn't care at all?

Is he merciful? Doesn't look like it. Making one animal eat another animal is "just" and "merciful"????

God didn't create animals to eat other animals. Predation is an aspect of the fallen world, it was NOT part of God's original design. According to the Bible, when the fall of man happened, the world began to change. So the way the world is now is very different than how it was in the beginning, in the pre-fall world.

I'll let TIR answer the rest of your questions, since you asked a bunch in one post. I just wanted to quickly chime in to answer those two.

 

[frigidweirdo]

What an odd question. Because it's His creation! And because God's nature is love. Why do you think God would create human beings in the first place if He didn't care at all?




God didn't create animals to eat other animals. Predation is an aspect of the fallen world, it was NOT part of God's original design. According to the Bible, when the fall of man happened, the world began to change. So the way the world is now is very different than how it was in the beginning, in the pre-fall world.

I'll let TIR answer the rest of your questions, since you asked a bunch in one post. I just wanted to quickly chime in to answer those two.

What isn't God's creation? He made rabbits, and he made tigers that eat the rabbits.

"God's love" huh?

Yeah, I think that God would create things and not care about them, because this is exactly what we see EVERY DAY.

So who created animals then? Bob the Builder?

 

[buttercup]

What isn't God's creation? He made rabbits, and he made tigers that eat the rabbits.

"God's love" huh?

Yeah, I think that God would create things and not care about them, because this is exactly what we see EVERY DAY.

So who created animals then? Bob the Builder?

You completely misunderstood my previous post. Of course God created the animals! Where did I state otherwise? I said He did not create animals to eat other animals. In other words, carnivorous animals weren't God's original design. Read Genesis 1:29-30. Again, the fall of mankind brought about many changes to this world.

If you don't know what is meant by "the fall", the Bible talks about how the sin / rebellion of the first humans brought a curse to the world, it began to change. After the fall it was no longer the paradise that it was in the very beginning.

Is that more clear now?

ETA: In regard to predation, that didn't happen overnight, and there's more to it than that....but the main point remains the same: the way the world is now is not how it was in the very beginning.

 

[frigidweirdo]

You completely misunderstood my previous post. Of course God created the animals! Where did I state otherwise? I said He did not create animals to eat other animals. In other words, carnivorous animals weren't God's original design. Read Genesis 1:29-30. Again, the fall of mankind brought about many changes to this world.

If you don't know what is meant by "the fall", the Bible talks about how the sin / rebellion of the first humans brought a curse to the world, it began to change. After the fall it was no longer the paradise that it was in the very beginning.

Is that more clear now?

ETA: In regard to predation, that didn't happen overnight, and there's more to it than that....but the main point remains the same: the way the world is now is not how it was in the very beginning.

How would humans create carnivores?

And if God doesn't like carnivores, why hasn't he wiped everyone off the face of the planet, like he did before?

Is it clear? Nope, it's very murky and very contradictory

 

[HaShev]

Not just the christian god, any god.

If they were real it would be self evident.

From a guy who spend decades as a preacher:

“Christians go in with their god as an assumption rather than a conclusion. When in fact, after close examination, the virgin birth falls apart, the resurrection falls apart, the basis of morality falls apart, the promise of afterlife fizzles into fear based marketing.”

“The gods of Islam, of Judaism, of Christianity only exist in scripture. If they actually existed, we wouldn’t need the books to claim they did. Once the book fails, the god goes with it.”



Feel free to explain why he is wrong or right.

But you don't need a book so the OP and the quoted author are wrong.
If you didn't have a Bible or couldn't read / comprehend, or didn't have a Congregation to go to, everything you'd need would be sitting there all along (like cliff notes) in the name and legend of the Holy City of YeruShalem.
From containing the descriptive name describing the Essence of God, to describing our purpose and direction / path ( so it's not subjective), to the short version and conclusion to the battle between the fallen message / messenger and the overturner-rising rightful messenger, being in the legend of how YeruShalem becomes the city of peace.
Like I said everything in the beacon/ focus that is the HOLY CITY.
So without the Bible everything is still there in the single holy name.

It's essential to define that power & source of Life (God) in order to know our purpose, place, path, and thus know if we are in line (doing good) or going against the grain (doing evil).
The Torah tells us God's Essence is in the city's name, Shalem means completeness -wholeness, Stability, which is why Genesis says God creates order out of chaos, not out of nothing.
Knowing/describing that essence in life helps discern from subjective opinions on what is in line or against the grain (right or wrong, good or bad).
So ask yourself is that Shalem(stable,becoming complete) or opposition to Shalem(chaotic & divisive) to know good from evil without it being mere subjective opinion.
Like I said many times, the holy name is like cliff notes which is why the city is our focus and Iris of the Eye of God.

Sources:
YeruShalem would carry the name. (1 Kings 11:36 &
in dead sea scrolls: Words of the Archangel Michael scroll 4Q529, 6Q23)
The Gemarah (Baba Batra 75) Tells us Jerusalem is named after G0D and is the place commemorating his name and essence. In Sefer D’varim (12:5, 11, 14, 18, 21; 14:23,24, 25; 15:20; 16:2, 6, 7, 11, 15, 16; 17:8, 10; 18:6; 26:2; 31:11).the place that I will choose to place My Name. That is referring to YeruShalem because Sifri identifies the place which Hashem will choose (12:18) as “Yerushalayim”.

Type: "David named 2 sons after Shalem"
in google search.

 

[buttercup]

How would humans create carnivores?

And if God doesn't like carnivores, why hasn't he wiped everyone off the face of the planet, like he did before?

Is it clear? Nope, it's very murky and very contradictory

Who said that humans created carnivores? I said that the FALL of mankind, according to the bible, brought a curse to this world. It brought death into the world, and other things that didn't exist in the very beginning.

As for your second question, there are a lot of things that God doesn't like, but allows, temporarily. We have free will, and God honors that by allowing humans to do things He doesn't agree with. If God forced everyone to be perfect and forced everything to be the way He wants things to be, then we would be mere robots without the ability to make our own choices and learn from our mistakes. God wants us to do the right things by our own choice, through having the freedom to make bad choices, and LEARN from them (hopefully)...because He wants us to love, trust and obey Him WILLINGLY, from our own volition, not in a forced way.

But getting back to your question about carnivores...according to the prophetic scriptures about the world to come when Jesus returns, life will go back to how it was in the pre-fall world...Meaning all of creation living together in peace and harmony. So there won't be carnivores, the scriptures say "none will harm or destroy another..." and all the former ways of this world will be no more. (Isaiah 11:6-9)

If this is still unclear for you, I'll try to clear up any confusion, but it might have to wait til tomorrow, cause it's getting late here.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Who said that humans created carnivores? I said that the FALL of mankind, according to the bible, brought a curse to this world. It brought death into the world, and other things that didn't exist in the very beginning.

As for your second question, there are a lot of things that God doesn't like, but allows, temporarily. We have free will, and God honors that by allowing humans to do things He doesn't agree with. If God forced everyone to be perfect and forced everything to be the way He wants things to be, then we would be mere robots without the ability to make our own choices and learn from our mistakes. God wants us to do the right things by our own choice, through having the freedom to make bad choices, and LEARN from them (hopefully)...because He wants us to love, trust and obey Him WILLINGLY, from our own volition, not in a forced way.

But getting back to your question about carnivores...according to the prophetic scriptures about the world to come when Jesus returns, life will go back to how it was in the pre-fall world...Meaning all of creation living together in peace and harmony. So there won't be carnivores, the scriptures say "none will harm or destroy another..." and all the former ways of this world will be no more. (Isaiah 11:6-9)

If this is still unclear for you, I'll try to clear up any confusion, but it might have to wait til tomorrow, cause it's getting late here.

So, is the Bible truthful or not?

Is it a story or is it the truth?

Where'd the curse come from?

So, humans had free will, become violent, and then God killed most of them. Contradictory.

Now, humans are still violent, and God does nothing about it.

What's the point of God then? God says "make your own choices" and then punishes those who make "the wrong choice" by saying they can't go into heaven.

Doesn't that seem weird to you?

And when will Jesus return? Never....?

 

[buttercup]

So, is the Bible truthful or not?

Is it a story or is it the truth?

Where'd the curse come from?

So, humans had free will, become violent, and then God killed most of them. Contradictory.

Now, humans are still violent, and God does nothing about it.

What's the point of God then? God says "make your own choices" and then punishes those who make "the wrong choice" by saying they can't go into heaven.

Doesn't that seem weird to you?

And when will Jesus return? Never....?

I already explained where the curse came from, two or three times. I'm starting to wonder if you actually read posts.

As for the flood, I'm pretty sure The Irish Ram already addressed the topic of the flood with you. It had to do with the Nephilim. If you don't know about the Nephilim, that's a topic in and of itself. But for now I'll just say it wasn't merely about humans being violent. There's much more to it than that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it almost sounds like you WANT another flood, or another wiping out of most humans. As I already said, God temporarily allows bad things to happen, because the alternative is human being forced to obey. Is that what you want? Do you want a world of pre-programmed robots, who don't have free choice? Again, God wants us to to do the right things on our own, without being forced, so God gives us the freedom to make bad choices, and hopefully learn from them. I already went over this.

There's nothing contradictory about God not doing a second flood. There will be a day, however, when God will right all wrongs, though, and hold all people accountable. So if you're afraid that people will get away with things, you don't have to worry about that. Everyone is accountable to God, whether they believe or not.

If I didn't answer some of your newest questions, I just have one more thing to say...I'm noticing that you do something that many atheists do. You ask a TON of questions, in a rapid-fire way, seemingly as a debating tactic. Before fully resolving any question, you continually shoot out more and more questions, many of which have already been answered many times before.

My dad was an atheist, and he used to do the exact same thing, whenever he and I used to have debates. He'd keep throwing out tons of questions, without ever resolving any of them, just leap-frogging from one question to another, which in my view is not debating in good faith. But it's what I've noticed many atheists do.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I already explained where the curse came from, two or three times. I'm starting to wonder if you actually read posts.

As for the flood, I'm pretty sure TIR already addressed the topic of the flood with you. It had to do with the Nephilim. If you don't know about the Nephilim, that's a topic in and of itself. But for now I'll just say it wasn't merely about humans being violent. There's much more to it than that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it almost sounds like you WANT another flood, or another wiping out of most humans. As I already said, God temporarily allows bad things to happen, because the alternative is human being forced to obey. Is that what you want? Do you want a world of pre-programmed robots, who don't have free choice? Again, God wants us to to do the right things on our own, without being forced, so God gives us the freedom to make bad choices, and hopefully learn from them. I already went over this.

There's nothing contradictory about God not doing a second flood. There will be a day, however, when God will right all wrongs, though, and hold all people accountable. So if you're afraid that people will get away with things, you don't have to worry about that. Everyone is accountable to God, whether they believe or not.

If I didn't answer some of your newest questions, I just have one more thing to say..... I'm noticing that you do something that many atheists do. You ask a TON of questions, in a rapid-fire way, seemingly as a debating tactic. Before fully resolving any question, you continually shoot out more and more questions, many of which have already been answered many times before.

My dad was an atheist, and he used to do the exact same thing, whenever he and I used to have debates. He'd keep throwing out tons of questions, without ever resolving any of them, just leap-frogging from one question to another, which in my view is not debating in good faith. But it's what I've noticed many atheists do.

What I mean by "Where did the curse come from?" I mean.... Curses aren't real. I can't curse you and you can't curse me, it's simply not possible.

Humans brought a curse on the world? How? How was the possible, who did it? God? Can God curse people? Does God say "I don't like you, so here's a curse?"

Curses were simply a way of ignorant people to blame bad things they didn't understand on something they thought they could control. Surely we're better than that now, or not?

Just because someone has "addressed a topic" with me, doesn't mean I'm satisfied with your answer. Doesn't mean I accept you answer.

To be honest I think you're getting rather aggressive, so I'll leave it there.

 

[Meriweather]

What I mean by "Where did the curse come from?" I mean.... Curses aren't real. I can't curse you and you can't curse me, it's simply not possible.

According to Genesis, there was a time when the world had God's protection, and all was good as the world was protected from evil. Then Adam and Eve came to a decision. They wanted to become like God and know both good and evil--and ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The etymology of the Hebrew word translated as 'curse' literally means "the removal of God's protection". Mankind wanted to know both good and evil, which meant they asked God to remove his protection so that they could know evil. Doing without God's protection comes with consequences (perhaps a better description than 'curse'). Evil enters into the world and into our lives.

This is why you and I have such opposite concepts of God and the story of the Great Flood. You come from the position that God is bad and blame all that is bad on him. I come from the perspective that God is goodness, so good he brings good out of evil--and mankind desired to have this knowledge of both good and evil. Some, like God, work to bring good out of evil. Some simply enjoy the power of evil and dwell there.

 

[Mashmont]

Atheists are not a "belief group" And I can guarantee you they don't lead the pack in at least one category.

Religiosity and Child Sexual Abuse: A Risk Factor Assessment | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

Feel free to post your evidence for the others.

There is no way the majority of sexual molesters or any other criminals are church goers. You people will go to great lengths to lie.
This doesn't even pass the logic test. Why would a group with stronger mores who teach against evil commit more evil than those who have no standards of behavior? Answer: They don't. No countries commit more atrocities and murder and evil than those whose governments who deny God's existence.

 

[Woodznutz]

If God liked free will, he'd let people do whatever they wanted and wouldn't intervene.

God doesn't intervene much that we're aware of. Of course, he will when things get really bad.

 

[hadit]

It didn't start with a modern complex DNA molecule. It started with a couple of proteins and evolved from there.

And again, do you know the odds of all 21 amino acids forming randomly, then all being in the same place at the same time and combining to form proteins, then the proteins combining to form a single DNA molecule? Remember, this is what you claim happened, totally randomly. Also remember that a single DNA molecule is useless for life unless it is used by a cell, so you have to have the other parts of the cell ALSO forming randomly in that same place at that same time or the DNA molecule falls apart and dies uselessly, leaving the entire process to start all over again. And, of course, the cell needs to know how to use the DNA molecule to replicate itself or again, it's useless.

 

[hadit]

The problem with what you say is that you've decided there's good and bad.

What I've found in life is there are really bad people, and really good people, not many, but some. In between are lots and lots, billions of people who are selfish, who have a certain amount of empathy, who have learned a certain way of being, who focus on certain things, and ignore others. They're not good, they're not bad, they just are human.

China, without gods for the most part, has lower murder rates than the US, which has a lot of gods. Why? Is it the fear of God or gods that is stopping people from committing crime? The Italian mafia went to church on a Sunday....

And if God decided that we could all decide to make choices, why then kill most people, because he didn't like those choices?

And why then not kill all the people after WW2, WW1 and all the other evil killing that's happened?

And why not kill all the people after humans kill TRILLIONS of animals every year?

And why make carnivores and omnivores if God doesn't like violence?

You'll have to ask Him when you see Him.

The truth is, we don't know everything. We do, however, know that God does not allow sin to progress beyond a certain point without justice being served, and ultimately, we are no more capable of judging God to be wrong than a toddler is capable of judging his father to be wrong for being put in time out after a temper tantrum. You are attempting to put God under YOUR standard of morality, and as you noted, man has a lot of different standards.

 

[buttercup]

Doing without God's protection comes with consequences (perhaps a better description than 'curse').

I was going to say basically the same thing to him last night. He was getting too hung up on the word 'curse' so I was going to say 'consequences' is probably a better way to describe it...but it was starting to get way too late last night, so I didn't.

Also, I probably shouldn't have posted on this thread at all last night, because I wasn't in the right frame of mind for debating in this section. That's why I probably was being a little short with him. So I'm sorry, fridigweirdo, and I'm glad that a few others here took over. Thanks, you all.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Why would God care less whether he preserved the human race or not?

Do you know how many mass extinctions there have been on this planet alone?

Potentially they are millions of races of intelligent beings in this universe. And he seemed to not like intelligent beings because they're violent.

Why does God have to be anything?

Is he merciful? Doesn't look like it. Making one animal eat another animal is "just" and "merciful"????

And who is Satan? God is the only God, but Satan seems to be smarter than God. As Satan can get people to hate a dude who went and killed most humans.... I wonder how he does it "dude, that God dude over there, he's a mass murderer" "yeah, he's bad"

And God can do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING but can't be bothered to stop Satan being a bit of a prick. Why not? Someone said that God allows Satan to do all this stuff.

Again, NOT A MASS MURDERER. Satan tried to alter man's DNA with a very nasty demonic addition. The results were then and would have been catastrophic for the future of man. God removed the threat to His children. God preserved His children, as would any father.
How many mass extinctions were there in the Garden of Eden? How many thorns? How much pain in childbirth? How much food grew without having to till the soil? How many animals ate each other in the Garden of Eden? Eden was God's plan for us.
Potentially, we could be the only intelligent beings in the universe.
God is everything, Jesus is everything:
John 1:3. ESV All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.


If Satan/Lucifer was smarter than God, he would have stayed in Heaven. He rebelled and was thrown out of Heaven, and 1/3 of the angels left with him. Man, eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, gave Satan dominion over the earth. It wasn't God's to take back. It was Adam who had dominion over earth. We deal with Satan every day. But his time is limited. The time Satan has left gives God the opportunity to gather Gentile souls to Himself.
Lucifer challenged the perfection of God. If God didn't acknowledge the transfer of dominion of the earth, He would not be 100% just< as in justice.
So, as Satan collected our souls for Hell, God did an end around. Christ became man and removed the sin from man. God judged Jesus instead of us. Making God 100% in justice served. And 100% merciful to us.

When Job challenged God's game plan, God said, "And where were you when I was creating the earth?"

 

[hobelim]

God didn't create animals to eat other animals. Predation is an aspect of the fallen world, it was NOT part of God's original design.

That is one of the most absurd reality defying assertions that I've heard in a long time, and that is saying alot.

Thanks for the laughs!

 

[buttercup]

That is one of the most absurd reality defying assertions that I've heard in a long time, and that is saying alot.

Thanks for the laughs!

If you think that the way the world is NOW is the way it was in the very beginning, then you are the one who believes something laughably absurd. And demonstrably unbiblical.

But I don't expect you to believe it, since your spiritual views are obviously very different than mine and many others here.