If God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and just, then why do ignorant kids suffer?

[Montrovant]

For an all powerful, all knowing creator of the universe and everything, god is apparently easy to know. I often find it amazing how easily people feel they can know what god can or cannot do, what he will or will not do, what he thinks and how he works. Whatever the religion, many people seem to believe they understand this being that is supposed to be so vast, so powerful, and so outside the rules of the universe under which we live. In fact, god is usually remarkable human.

I can get believing there is a god or some sort of higher power. What I cannot understand is believing an all powerful creator would be remotely like humans.

Why is it so hard to believe that an all powerful, all knowing Creator can make Himself known to His children?

As Man now is, God once was; as God now is, Man can become.

So god was once mortal and evolved into the being it is now? That's a new one.

 

[Wiseacre]

IMHO, God has left the solutions for us to figure out. We've got the brains, maybe it's on us to stop man's inhumanity to man and also conquer disease and other natural threats.

 

[mattskramer]

Now, I have been to Nigeria twice on a mission trip to dig wells so kids like that can have clean water to drink. I notice you dont have any pictures of that, but if you did you would see God in action.

No. I would see people, doing things, who believe in God.

Not from our prospective. God or lack there of is not responsible for that child's condition. People are. the post is nothing more then a rep fishing trip.

Sometimes people are not responsible for a child's condition. Sometimes children are born with genetic conditions that no one knew about or could not have practically foreseen. Sometimes conditions are the result of "blind luck".

Again, people on a mission trip to dig wells is not the doing of God. It is the actions of people - people who happen to believe in God. Is the assassination of abortion providers and the bombing of abortion clinics examples of God in action?

 

[JohnA]

I will retract some pissy attitude and post this. Its the best answer I have seen, and it still leaves more questions for some. Here it is if you want to read it.


This is one of the most difficult questions for Christians to answer.

The “problem of pain,” as the well-known Christian scholar, C.S. Lewis, once called it, is atheism's most potent weapon against the Christian faith.




That is, they say, how can a God of love permit such things in His world as war, sickness, pain, and death, especially when their effects often are felt most keenly by those who are apparently innocent? Either He is not a God of love and is indifferent to human suffering, or else He is not a God of power and is therefore helpless to do anything about it. In either case, the Biblical God who is supposedly one of both absolute power and perfect love becomes an impossible anachronism. Or so they claim!

This is a real difficulty, but atheism is certainly not the answer, and neither is agnosticism. While there is much evil in the world, there is even more that is good. This is proved by the mere fact that people normally try to hang on to life as long as they can. Furthermore, everyone instinctively recognizes that “good” is a higher order of truth than “bad”.

We need also to recognize that our very minds were created by God. We can only use these minds to the extent that He allows, and it is, therefore, utterly presumptuous for us to use them to question Him and His motives.

“S

We ourselves do not establish the standards of what is right. Only the Creator of all reality can do that. We need to settle it, in our minds and hearts, whether we understand it or not, that whatever God does is, by definition, right.

Having settled this by faith, we are then free to seek for ways in which we can profit spiritually from the sufferings in life as well as the blessings. As we consider such matters, it is helpful to keep the following great truths continually in our minds.
There is really no such thing as the “innocent” suffering.

Since “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God's wrath on the basis of his own innocence.

As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so.


Jesus on the cross. Click here to read about Jesus. (Illustration copyrighted)
Learn about how much Jesus Christ suffered

The Lord Jesus Christ, who was the only truly “innocent” and “righteous” man in all history, nevertheless has suffered more than anyone else who ever lived.

And this He did for us! “Christ died for our sins” (I Corinthians 15:3). He suffered and died, in order that ultimately He might deliver the world from the Curse, and that, even now, He can deliver from sin and its bondage anyone who will receive Him in faith as personal Lord and Savior. This great deliverance from the penalty of inherent sin, as well as of overt sins, very possibly also assures the salvation of those who have died before reaching an age of conscious choice of wrong over right.

With our full faith in God's goodness and in Christ's redemption, we can recognize that our present sufferings can be turned to His glory and our good.

The sufferings of unsaved men are often used by the Holy Spirit to cause them to realize their needs of salvation and to turn to Christ in repentance and faith. The sufferings of Christians should always be the means of developing a stronger dependence on God and a more Christ-like character, if they are properly “exercised thereby” (Hebrews 12:11).

Thus, God is loving and merciful even when, “for the present,” He allows trials and sufferings to come in our lives.

“For we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28).

Hope it helps.

i cut out most of that mumbo jumbo for the sake of space .

firstly once again we have the problem of you believing chriatianity is the ONLY TRUTH ,
that would be okay if the only* holy book *in the world was the bible and it was proven to be authentic world of g-d .
you talk about pain and god in the chriatian sence not in the sence of all of the citizens of the world many believing in something other than chriatianity

the problem of Pain is the best atheist weapon against religion as a WHOLE not just the christian one we are not PICKING on you .

atheism is the believe that there is no g-d christian or otherwise your words from your bible mean nothing to me


you say we as humans do not establish what is right only the creator can do that .

then stop JUDGING others peoples personal lives as if YOU KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT that seems to be what a lot of christians do instead as doing what your *book says about love thy nieghbor .

 

[Momanohedhunter]

I will retract some pissy attitude and post this. Its the best answer I have seen, and it still leaves more questions for some. Here it is if you want to read it.


This is one of the most difficult questions for Christians to answer.

The “problem of pain,” as the well-known Christian scholar, C.S. Lewis, once called it, is atheism's most potent weapon against the Christian faith.




That is, they say, how can a God of love permit such things in His world as war, sickness, pain, and death, especially when their effects often are felt most keenly by those who are apparently innocent? Either He is not a God of love and is indifferent to human suffering, or else He is not a God of power and is therefore helpless to do anything about it. In either case, the Biblical God who is supposedly one of both absolute power and perfect love becomes an impossible anachronism. Or so they claim!

This is a real difficulty, but atheism is certainly not the answer, and neither is agnosticism. While there is much evil in the world, there is even more that is good. This is proved by the mere fact that people normally try to hang on to life as long as they can. Furthermore, everyone instinctively recognizes that “good” is a higher order of truth than “bad”.

We need also to recognize that our very minds were created by God. We can only use these minds to the extent that He allows, and it is, therefore, utterly presumptuous for us to use them to question Him and His motives.

“S

We ourselves do not establish the standards of what is right. Only the Creator of all reality can do that. We need to settle it, in our minds and hearts, whether we understand it or not, that whatever God does is, by definition, right.

Having settled this by faith, we are then free to seek for ways in which we can profit spiritually from the sufferings in life as well as the blessings. As we consider such matters, it is helpful to keep the following great truths continually in our minds.
There is really no such thing as the “innocent” suffering.

Since “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God's wrath on the basis of his own innocence.

As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so.


Jesus on the cross. Click here to read about Jesus. (Illustration copyrighted)
Learn about how much Jesus Christ suffered

The Lord Jesus Christ, who was the only truly “innocent” and “righteous” man in all history, nevertheless has suffered more than anyone else who ever lived.

And this He did for us! “Christ died for our sins” (I Corinthians 15:3). He suffered and died, in order that ultimately He might deliver the world from the Curse, and that, even now, He can deliver from sin and its bondage anyone who will receive Him in faith as personal Lord and Savior. This great deliverance from the penalty of inherent sin, as well as of overt sins, very possibly also assures the salvation of those who have died before reaching an age of conscious choice of wrong over right.

With our full faith in God's goodness and in Christ's redemption, we can recognize that our present sufferings can be turned to His glory and our good.

The sufferings of unsaved men are often used by the Holy Spirit to cause them to realize their needs of salvation and to turn to Christ in repentance and faith. The sufferings of Christians should always be the means of developing a stronger dependence on God and a more Christ-like character, if they are properly “exercised thereby” (Hebrews 12:11).

Thus, God is loving and merciful even when, “for the present,” He allows trials and sufferings to come in our lives.

“For we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28).

Hope it helps.

i cut out most of that mumbo jumbo for the sake of space .

firstly once again we have the problem of you believing chriatianity is the ONLY TRUTH ,
that would be okay if the only* holy book *in the world was the bible and it was proven to be authentic world of g-d .
you talk about pain and god in the chriatian sence not in the sence of all of the citizens of the world many believing in something other than chriatianity

the problem of Pain is the best atheist weapon against religion as a WHOLE not just the christian one we are not PICKING on you .

atheism is the believe that there is no g-d christian or otherwise your words from your bible mean nothing to me


you say we as humans do not establish what is right only the creator can do that .

then stop JUDGING others peoples personal lives as if YOU KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT that seems to be what a lot of christians do instead as doing what your *book says about love thy nieghbor .

You are a liar and a coward. You are not looking for answers, you are rep whoring. I as a Christian find it acceptable. I posted an answer that I as a Christian can accept, I as a Christian have never tried to force my beliefs on any one. If they want it, they will have it. You have NO idea whet the good book says. None. You and most who start thees threads are nothing more then pseudo intellectuals, who Google up The blue letter bible or E-Sword, yank out a verse and put it over a sad picture and lament how there is not really a God to ease the suffering of this small child. You do this because you are not really an intellectual and are insecure in your beliefs (or lack there of) So you post up this crap so all those who are as insecure as you will Pos. Rep. you and blow smoke up your ass's. You provided nothing to the contrary other then whining, as do those who usuley have issues with other peoples faith. You are jealous.

 

[Avatar4321]

So god was once mortal and evolved into the being it is now? That's a new one.

Not sure I'd use the word evolved. But the New Testament is based on the central fact that God the Son became mortal and lived as a man. Not sure why this is a new one.

 

[Avatar4321]

then stop JUDGING others peoples personal lives as if YOU KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT that seems to be what a lot of christians do instead as doing what your *book says about love thy nieghbor .

How is explaining why suffering is in the world equate to judging others?

Perhaps, you should do as you recommend and love your neighbor.

 

[Momanohedhunter]

then stop JUDGING others peoples personal lives as if YOU KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT that seems to be what a lot of christians do instead as doing what your *book says about love thy nieghbor .

How is explaining why suffering is in the world equate to judging others?

Perhaps, you should do as you recommend and love your neighbor.

Or "know your enemy" so to speak. I have a friend who chides me constantly about this, he at least has the class to read the Bible before he gives us crap about it. He also has the class to be sincere about his non belief for lack of a better way to put it.

 

[emilynghiem]

I see things as they are not thou some mytic old time fiction book .

but YES we do need to make progress towards peace .

Hi John: to prevent mutual frustration, what I do to progress toward peace is to focus on people who can at least dialogue and interact on point of agreement. No use wasting valuable time and energy arguing back and forth with fundamental types who are intolerant of the other person's ways and words for saying things, using science or the Bible, or whatever is not working to make progress. If you can better learn by interacting with opposites, that's fine, I do that all the time and don't mind befriending even the most closeminded on either side of these debates; as it hones my communication skills. But if this is just frustrating to you, don't subject yourself to that. Just stick with those who can speak interchangeably back and forth, between the "spiritual and secular" terms for the relationship between individual action and global changes toward human progress.

I am working on my ability to speak both languages, to address both audiences. Some people are more "bilingual" and can help me translate back and forth. Some are strictly one way or the other, and will reject any language from the other group they don't relate to at all. So if you only want to work in one realm, and define and discuss things using that as the base reality, I support you in that. Please forgive those who cannot translate concepts from the Bible into the secular realm. I've been working on that for years, and I still don't have it down. So imagine someone that has no experience or desire at all to try that, they are just as frustrated as you are dealing with them.

I would start with just the points where you agree on basic principles and work on progress using that. People who go strictly by their religious understanding of the Bible may not recognize your ways and words about "truth" and "justice" as being the same thing in the Bible, but I do because I was brought up secular and am used to thinking in those terms. So I still favor explaining things secular (even the meaning and message I get in the Bible that I believe is the same thing that Christianity is trying to teach though the symbolic language is not how I was brought up using. I had to learn to translate all that into common terms that make sense to me as applying to all humanity in general.)

It would help considerably if all religions shut the **** up and stopped fighting with each others killing there selves and others to proclaim which one is right
most of the wars since time began have had a religious undertone .

intolerance is rife in the main religions thats not going to change it hasnt for centuries why should it now .

Religion like a gun is the tool being abused.
Guns are meant to be used for defense, but are abused to commit crimes.
Same with state laws and authority, meant and can be used for good, to
enforce common standards for personal and public benefit. But too often abused.
This is human nature on its learning curve.
Whether the laws abused are of the church or the state.

The difference today is that we can see and compare the common patterns between
church corruption and state corruption, and learn how to correct both at the same time.

A big fight and push is going on right now, arguing that the government is "not following the Constitution" but abusing authority for political and financial gain of private interests.
This follows the same pattern of the Catholic Church when the Lutheran movement argued against the corruption of laws/authority for financial control, and led the people to interpret laws for themselves directly by the Bible instead of subjected to abusive authority.

We have education, history, resources and freedom of speech and communication
that we didn't have before, to interact and collaborate across different social/political groups, nationally and internationally. I don't know any other time in history people had this much access, so now it's up to us to use it to organize and form solutions we can apply. And by setting up good examples and models that work, other people can follow.

you say that god sent devine intervention thou jesus to end bring forgivenes and end all suffering
THAT of course ONLY APPLIES if you believe in jesus how bout the million s *he created * that dont believe in him do they still suffer . so does that mean anybody who suffers is somehow not a good or godly person ?

Justice works the same way, whether you call it Jesus or social justice, or the "wheel of justice" as my mother does (she is Buddhist and does not personalize Jesus the way Christians personalize God, but keeps both on an impersonal level. She understands the concepts of "wisdom" and "justice" which are other names/attributes of God/Jesus.)

How justice works, it's a double edged sword.
If you practice "retributive justice" where you wish good on those you deem good, and seek bad for those you deem bad, the SAME is given unto you. You are judged as you jduge others, with or without mercy, giving a chance for correction or punishing without.

If you practice "restorative justice" then you have the same graces that you give.
So that is why I chose that path; I make mistakes, I commit to making up for these as I cause damage to people or relations, so that justice/good faith relations are restored.
I cannot fix all that is FU, but I do what I can, and people chip in and either help with the rest or forgive what we realize is beyond what any of us can do. So restorative justice begets the same, retributive justice begets the same.

Some of these events you point to as unjust and outside the rules,
there may or may not be any way to explain reasons why these things happen.
The most we can do is work on how we respond to them, in a just or unjust way.
That part, we can control, whether we are Christian believers or secular humanists or
whatever.

What it means to be Christian is to believe, to have faith in the conscience, in the spirit of justice to bring about truth, that unites and liberates all people so there is salvation from suffering; and this process comes about from "accepting forgiveness" that allows either correction or healing or both, from injustice and wrongs that otherwise prevent us from becoming one in spirit.

It takes a leap of faith to believe that forgiveness can help fix these relationships damaged from past abuses and wrongs, some irreversible, some unforgiveable.
So that is where the leap of faith comes in.

Where the scientific method might apply is studying the process to see how and why it works. Why does forgiveness help people's minds and relationships toward progress, and better health and physical solutions? This can be studied medically and sociologically.
ANd there are growing numbers of studies and institutions looking into forgiveness to understand why it makes such a significant difference.

lastly if god cant or wont interfer with natural events caused by physics or energy why do you bother to pray ?? if he wont or cant change things whats the point ? do you still talk if the person you are addressing isnt listening .

A lot of prayer is to prepare the person, to help focus or clear the mind and spirit of the person praying.

If either prayer or meditation works for you, then use it. If not, you are probably using
something else. If sharing ideas consciously with other people works better, then use that.
Most people use a combination of these things.

This is like asking, if talking about a problem with other people doesn't change their minds, then why bother? In truth, it helps people to talk things out in itself, to identify and clarify what they think or believe or feel, where the conflicts are, and what steps can be taken next to proceed toward resolution or improvement.

Prayer and meditation have been compared to two sides of a conversation,
talking and listening. Whatever it takes to work things out in your mind,
so you reach a more clear understanding in relation to your neighbor
or to life or humanity in general, people have different ways of talking it out.

(P.S. the one area of prayer that I would say is specific to Christ Jesus, and cannot be replaced with talking with yourself or a counselor or any other form of therapy or help,
is the area of deliverance and exorcism. That is hard core prayer, like the difference between "just eating right and taking vitamins to have a natural immune system" and getting a specific antibiotic treatment to "kill a virus that won't respond to anything else but has to have the right medicine or it will invade the whole body." If you study this practice, like Scott Peck did using the scientific method to observe how it really worked, you might get why Christians insist on teaching Jesus only, and are so against witchcraft and any pagan rituals that invoke demonic energy or curses; that is the one area that cannot be substituted by anything else I have found. And people who have used this level of prayer to be freed from drug addiction, satanic cults and curses, are so grateful to have their lives and free will back, that is why I understand these "Jesus freaks" who cry and shout in the aisles because they cannot express their joy and gratitude enough. They look like fools, but there is a reason they shout. I don't take it that far, but I get why they do.)

 

[Momanohedhunter]

I see things as they are not thou some mytic old time fiction book .

but YES we do need to make progress towards peace .

Hi John: to prevent mutual frustration, what I do to progress toward peace is to focus on people who can at least dialogue and interact on point of agreement. No use wasting valuable time and energy arguing back and forth with fundamental types who are intolerant of the other person's ways and words for saying things, using science or the Bible, or whatever is not working to make progress. If you can better learn by interacting with opposites, that's fine, I do that all the time and don't mind befriending even the most closeminded on either side of these debates; as it hones my communication skills. But if this is just frustrating to you, don't subject yourself to that. Just stick with those who can speak interchangeably back and forth, between the "spiritual and secular" terms for the relationship between individual action and global changes toward human progress.

I am working on my ability to speak both languages, to address both audiences. Some people are more "bilingual" and can help me translate back and forth. Some are strictly one way or the other, and will reject any language from the other group they don't relate to at all. So if you only want to work in one realm, and define and discuss things using that as the base reality, I support you in that. Please forgive those who cannot translate concepts from the Bible into the secular realm. I've been working on that for years, and I still don't have it down. So imagine someone that has no experience or desire at all to try that, they are just as frustrated as you are dealing with them.

I would start with just the points where you agree on basic principles and work on progress using that. People who go strictly by their religious understanding of the Bible may not recognize your ways and words about "truth" and "justice" as being the same thing in the Bible, but I do because I was brought up secular and am used to thinking in those terms. So I still favor explaining things secular (even the meaning and message I get in the Bible that I believe is the same thing that Christianity is trying to teach though the symbolic language is not how I was brought up using. I had to learn to translate all that into common terms that make sense to me as applying to all humanity in general.)

It would help considerably if all religions shut the **** up and stopped fighting with each others killing there selves and others to proclaim which one is right
most of the wars since time began have had a religious undertone .

intolerance is rife in the main religions thats not going to change it hasnt for centuries why should it now .

Religion like a gun is the tool being abused.
Guns are meant to be used for defense, but are abused to commit crimes.
Same with state laws and authority, meant and can be used for good, to
enforce common standards for personal and public benefit. But too often abused.
This is human nature on its learning curve.
Whether the laws abused are of the church or the state.

The difference today is that we can see and compare the common patterns between
church corruption and state corruption, and learn how to correct both at the same time.

A big fight and push is going on right now, arguing that the government is "not following the Constitution" but abusing authority for political and financial gain of private interests.
This follows the same pattern of the Catholic Church when the Lutheran movement argued against the corruption of laws/authority for financial control, and led the people to interpret laws for themselves directly by the Bible instead of subjected to abusive authority.

We have education, history, resources and freedom of speech and communication
that we didn't have before, to interact and collaborate across different social/political groups, nationally and internationally. I don't know any other time in history people had this much access, so now it's up to us to use it to organize and form solutions we can apply. And by setting up good examples and models that work, other people can follow.

you say that god sent devine intervention thou jesus to end bring forgivenes and end all suffering
THAT of course ONLY APPLIES if you believe in jesus how bout the million s *he created * that dont believe in him do they still suffer . so does that mean anybody who suffers is somehow not a good or godly person ?

Justice works the same way, whether you call it Jesus or social justice, or the "wheel of justice" as my mother does (she is Buddhist and does not personalize Jesus the way Christians personalize God, but keeps both on an impersonal level. She understands the concepts of "wisdom" and "justice" which are other names/attributes of God/Jesus.)

How justice works, it's a double edged sword.
If you practice "retributive justice" where you wish good on those you deem good, and seek bad for those you deem bad, the SAME is given unto you. You are judged as you jduge others, with or without mercy, giving a chance for correction or punishing without.

If you practice "restorative justice" then you have the same graces that you give.
So that is why I chose that path; I make mistakes, I commit to making up for these as I cause damage to people or relations, so that justice/good faith relations are restored.
I cannot fix all that is FU, but I do what I can, and people chip in and either help with the rest or forgive what we realize is beyond what any of us can do. So restorative justice begets the same, retributive justice begets the same.

Some of these events you point to as unjust and outside the rules,
there may or may not be any way to explain reasons why these things happen.
The most we can do is work on how we respond to them, in a just or unjust way.
That part, we can control, whether we are Christian believers or secular humanists or
whatever.

What it means to be Christian is to believe, to have faith in the conscience, in the spirit of justice to bring about truth, that unites and liberates all people so there is salvation from suffering; and this process comes about from "accepting forgiveness" that allows either correction or healing or both, from injustice and wrongs that otherwise prevent us from becoming one in spirit.

It takes a leap of faith to believe that forgiveness can help fix these relationships damaged from past abuses and wrongs, some irreversible, some unforgiveable.
So that is where the leap of faith comes in.

Where the scientific method might apply is studying the process to see how and why it works. Why does forgiveness help people's minds and relationships toward progress, and better health and physical solutions? This can be studied medically and sociologically.
ANd there are growing numbers of studies and institutions looking into forgiveness to understand why it makes such a significant difference.

lastly if god cant or wont interfer with natural events caused by physics or energy why do you bother to pray ?? if he wont or cant change things whats the point ? do you still talk if the person you are addressing isnt listening .

A lot of prayer is to prepare the person, to help focus or clear the mind and spirit of the person praying.

If either prayer or meditation works for you, then use it. If not, you are probably using
something else. If sharing ideas consciously with other people works better, then use that.
Most people use a combination of these things.

This is like asking, if talking about a problem with other people doesn't change their minds, then why bother? In truth, it helps people to talk things out in itself, to identify and clarify what they think or believe or feel, where the conflicts are, and what steps can be taken next to proceed toward resolution or improvement.

Prayer and meditation have been compared to two sides of a conversation,
talking and listening. Whatever it takes to work things out in your mind,
so you reach a more clear understanding in relation to your neighbor
or to life or humanity in general, people have different ways of talking it out.

(P.S. the one area of prayer that I would say is specific to Christ Jesus, and cannot be replaced with talking with yourself or a counselor or any other form of therapy or help,
is the area of deliverance and exorcism. That is hard core prayer, like the difference between "just eating right and taking vitamins to have a natural immune system" and getting a specific antibiotic treatment to "kill a virus that won't respond to anything else but has to have the right medicine or it will invade the whole body." If you study this practice, like Scott Peck did using the scientific method to observe how it really worked, you might get why Christians insist on teaching Jesus only, and are so against witchcraft and any pagan rituals that invoke demonic energy or curses; that is the one area that cannot be substituted by anything else I have found. And people who have used this level of prayer to be freed from drug addiction, satanic cults and curses, are so grateful to have their lives and free will back, that is why I understand these "Jesus freaks" who cry and shout in the aisles because they cannot express their joy and gratitude enough. They look like fools, but there is a reason they shout. I don't take it that far, but I get why they do.)

Yet another. You two swap rep yet ? Spiritual beings having a human experience. That is as bad as anything else.

 

[emilynghiem]

So god was once mortal and evolved into the being it is now? That's a new one.

Not sure I'd use the word evolved. But the New Testament is based on the central fact that God the Son became mortal and lived as a man. Not sure why this is a new one.

Dear Avatar: (1) Would you recognize there is a change between the OT and the NT?
That the "relationship" between God and man is changed with the introduction of Jesus Christ into the human realm.
(2) Do you recognize that as people grow and develop spiritually, there are changes in progression, like distinct stages? So as individuals go through these stages, then collectively society also goes through stages as a whole.

God may not be changing,
but if our perception of God changes, then so does how we represent God.
So that there is a process of evolving spiritually and socially that follows that.

Personally, I relate to the Bible as representing spiritual stages in human history and development toward full maturity. And the stages of the grief process that individuals go through, collectively align with the stages represented in the Bible. The fall of man, the struggle and denial, the anger and depression/repentance phases, and the forgiveness redemption and recovery toward fulfillment of the path.

 

[Montrovant]

So god was once mortal and evolved into the being it is now? That's a new one.

Not sure I'd use the word evolved. But the New Testament is based on the central fact that God the Son became mortal and lived as a man. Not sure why this is a new one.

But my understanding is that Jesus was not the same as any other human before or since. He was the son of god (or actually was god, I'm never sure how that works honestly) and had knowledge, wisdom and power that others do not have. So it would seem to me that god was not as we are and certainly that we cannot become gods.

This is really a silly discussion probably based on my lack of understanding of your beliefs more than anything, and I'm happy to let it go rather than use up more space in the thread if you are. Just call it my ignorance and we can go back to the many other pointless arguments going on.

 

[JohnA]

I see things as they are not thou some mytic old time fiction book .

but YES we do need to make progress towards peace .

Hi John: to prevent mutual frustration, what I do to progress toward peace is to focus on people who can at least dialogue and interact on point of agreement. No use wasting valuable time and energy arguing back and forth with fundamental types who are intolerant of the other person's ways and words for saying things, using science or the Bible, or whatever is not working to make progress. If you can better learn by interacting with opposites, that's fine, I do that all the time and don't mind befriending even the most closeminded on either side of these debates; as it hones my communication skills. But if this is just frustrating to you, don't subject yourself to that. Just stick with those who can speak interchangeably back and forth, between the "spiritual and secular" terms for the relationship between individual action and global changes toward human progress.

I am working on my ability to speak both languages, to address both audiences. Some people are more "bilingual" and can help me translate back and forth. Some are strictly one way or the other, and will reject any language from the other group they don't relate to at all. So if you only want to work in one realm, and define and discuss things using that as the base reality, I support you in that. Please forgive those who cannot translate concepts from the Bible into the secular realm. I've been working on that for years, and I still don't have it down. So imagine someone that has no experience or desire at all to try that, they are just as frustrated as you are dealing with them.

I would start with just the points where you agree on basic principles and work on progress using that. People who go strictly by their religious understanding of the Bible may not recognize your ways and words about "truth" and "justice" as being the same thing in the Bible, but I do because I was brought up secular and am used to thinking in those terms. So I still favor explaining things secular (even the meaning and message I get in the Bible that I believe is the same thing that Christianity is trying to teach though the symbolic language is not how I was brought up using. I had to learn to translate all that into common terms that make sense to me as applying to all humanity in general.)



Religion like a gun is the tool being abused.
Guns are meant to be used for defense, but are abused to commit crimes.
Same with state laws and authority, meant and can be used for good, to
enforce common standards for personal and public benefit. But too often abused.
This is human nature on its learning curve.
Whether the laws abused are of the church or the state.

The difference today is that we can see and compare the common patterns between
church corruption and state corruption, and learn how to correct both at the same time.

A big fight and push is going on right now, arguing that the government is "not following the Constitution" but abusing authority for political and financial gain of private interests.
This follows the same pattern of the Catholic Church when the Lutheran movement argued against the corruption of laws/authority for financial control, and led the people to interpret laws for themselves directly by the Bible instead of subjected to abusive authority.

We have education, history, resources and freedom of speech and communication
that we didn't have before, to interact and collaborate across different social/political groups, nationally and internationally. I don't know any other time in history people had this much access, so now it's up to us to use it to organize and form solutions we can apply. And by setting up good examples and models that work, other people can follow.




Justice works the same way, whether you call it Jesus or social justice, or the "wheel of justice" as my mother does (she is Buddhist and does not personalize Jesus the way Christians personalize God, but keeps both on an impersonal level. She understands the concepts of "wisdom" and "justice" which are other names/attributes of God/Jesus.)

How justice works, it's a double edged sword.
If you practice "retributive justice" where you wish good on those you deem good, and seek bad for those you deem bad, the SAME is given unto you. You are judged as you jduge others, with or without mercy, giving a chance for correction or punishing without.

If you practice "restorative justice" then you have the same graces that you give.
So that is why I chose that path; I make mistakes, I commit to making up for these as I cause damage to people or relations, so that justice/good faith relations are restored.
I cannot fix all that is FU, but I do what I can, and people chip in and either help with the rest or forgive what we realize is beyond what any of us can do. So restorative justice begets the same, retributive justice begets the same.

Some of these events you point to as unjust and outside the rules,
there may or may not be any way to explain reasons why these things happen.
The most we can do is work on how we respond to them, in a just or unjust way.
That part, we can control, whether we are Christian believers or secular humanists or
whatever.

What it means to be Christian is to believe, to have faith in the conscience, in the spirit of justice to bring about truth, that unites and liberates all people so there is salvation from suffering; and this process comes about from "accepting forgiveness" that allows either correction or healing or both, from injustice and wrongs that otherwise prevent us from becoming one in spirit.

It takes a leap of faith to believe that forgiveness can help fix these relationships damaged from past abuses and wrongs, some irreversible, some unforgiveable.
So that is where the leap of faith comes in.

Where the scientific method might apply is studying the process to see how and why it works. Why does forgiveness help people's minds and relationships toward progress, and better health and physical solutions? This can be studied medically and sociologically.
ANd there are growing numbers of studies and institutions looking into forgiveness to understand why it makes such a significant difference.

lastly if god cant or wont interfer with natural events caused by physics or energy why do you bother to pray ?? if he wont or cant change things whats the point ? do you still talk if the person you are addressing isnt listening .

A lot of prayer is to prepare the person, to help focus or clear the mind and spirit of the person praying.

If either prayer or meditation works for you, then use it. If not, you are probably using
something else. If sharing ideas consciously with other people works better, then use that.
Most people use a combination of these things.

This is like asking, if talking about a problem with other people doesn't change their minds, then why bother? In truth, it helps people to talk things out in itself, to identify and clarify what they think or believe or feel, where the conflicts are, and what steps can be taken next to proceed toward resolution or improvement.

Prayer and meditation have been compared to two sides of a conversation,
talking and listening. Whatever it takes to work things out in your mind,
so you reach a more clear understanding in relation to your neighbor
or to life or humanity in general, people have different ways of talking it out.

(P.S. the one area of prayer that I would say is specific to Christ Jesus, and cannot be replaced with talking with yourself or a counselor or any other form of therapy or help,
is the area of deliverance and exorcism. That is hard core prayer, like the difference between "just eating right and taking vitamins to have a natural immune system" and getting a specific antibiotic treatment to "kill a virus that won't respond to anything else but has to have the right medicine or it will invade the whole body." If you study this practice, like Scott Peck did using the scientific method to observe how it really worked, you might get why Christians insist on teaching Jesus only, and are so against witchcraft and any pagan rituals that invoke demonic energy or curses; that is the one area that cannot be substituted by anything else I have found. And people who have used this level of prayer to be freed from drug addiction, satanic cults and curses, are so grateful to have their lives and free will back, that is why I understand these "Jesus freaks" who cry and shout in the aisles because they cannot express their joy and gratitude enough. They look like fools, but there is a reason they shout. I don't take it that far, but I get why they do.)

Yet another. You two swap rep yet ? Spiritual beings having a human experience. That is as bad as anything else.

ive not been a part pf this chat site for long ive never known the idea of * reps *until i came here .
the idea of posting something to get *reps *doen.st seem like a good reason to post just posting on a open board your views on the subject matter seems the way to go come what may .
i dont know any person here ,in fact i dont really look at the *names when I reply ,it dont matter who posts i reply to those i feel a need to .

 

[Youwerecreated]

I ask how there can be suffering on Earth if there is an all-powerful, all-knowing, and just God. I am told that there is free will and that people must choose to believe in Jesus. If that is the case, then what becomes of children who suffer and die without having been given information about Jesus? More importantly, why would such a God allow innocent children to suffer in agony and pain such as this kid did?

Such a child does not have free will in the practical sense. He probably did not even get a chance to learn about Jesus. Luckily he survived.

Very easy answer to your question.


Man chose his path and still are doing it today.

You're are blameing the wrong person this world belongs to satan not God but that will come to end soon.

2Co 4:4 in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones, so that the light of the glorious gospel of Christ (who is the image of God) should not dawn on them.

Everything that you see going on is because the god of this system is running things it will not be like this under the rule of our creator.


Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


Hell is not a place of torment it's the grave it is eternal death.

I'll say it again so you understand, quit blameing God for what is going on under the rule of satan.

 

[Youwerecreated]

So god was once mortal and evolved into the being it is now? That's a new one.

Not sure I'd use the word evolved. But the New Testament is based on the central fact that God the Son became mortal and lived as a man. Not sure why this is a new one.

But my understanding is that Jesus was not the same as any other human before or since. He was the son of god (or actually was god, I'm never sure how that works honestly) and had knowledge, wisdom and power that others do not have. So it would seem to me that god was not as we are and certainly that we cannot become gods.

This is really a silly discussion probably based on my lack of understanding of your beliefs more than anything, and I'm happy to let it go rather than use up more space in the thread if you are. Just call it my ignorance and we can go back to the many other pointless arguments going on.

Montrovant,it is very easy to understand once you read the bible in context.

That is why there are so many different religions because the bible is not read in it's entirety near enough by so called churches representing the truth. How can they know the truth if they do not consider all of the scriptures not just a certain few.

 

[Avatar4321]

Not sure I'd use the word evolved. But the New Testament is based on the central fact that God the Son became mortal and lived as a man. Not sure why this is a new one.

But my understanding is that Jesus was not the same as any other human before or since. He was the son of god (or actually was god, I'm never sure how that works honestly) and had knowledge, wisdom and power that others do not have. So it would seem to me that god was not as we are and certainly that we cannot become gods.

This is really a silly discussion probably based on my lack of understanding of your beliefs more than anything, and I'm happy to let it go rather than use up more space in the thread if you are. Just call it my ignorance and we can go back to the many other pointless arguments going on.

Montrovant,it is very easy to understand once you read the bible in context.

That is why there are so many different religions because the bible is not read in it's entirety near enough by so called churches representing the truth. How can they know the truth if they do not consider all of the scriptures not just a certain few.

There are so many different religions because people read the scriptures without the Holy Spirit. And because of Pride.

 

[edthecynic]

Not sure I'd use the word evolved. But the New Testament is based on the central fact that God the Son became mortal and lived as a man. Not sure why this is a new one.

But my understanding is that Jesus was not the same as any other human before or since. He was the son of god (or actually was god, I'm never sure how that works honestly) and had knowledge, wisdom and power that others do not have. So it would seem to me that god was not as we are and certainly that we cannot become gods.

This is really a silly discussion probably based on my lack of understanding of your beliefs more than anything, and I'm happy to let it go rather than use up more space in the thread if you are. Just call it my ignorance and we can go back to the many other pointless arguments going on.

Montrovant,it is very easy to understand once you read the bible in context.

That is why there are so many different religions because the bible is not read in it's entirety near enough by so called churches representing the truth. How can they know the truth if they do not consider all of the scriptures not just a certain few.

Which bible exactly? There are over 3,000 different versions of the bible.

 

[Avatar4321]

Which bible exactly? There are over 3,000 different versions of the bible.

Talk about exageration.

 

[edthecynic]

Which bible exactly? There are over 3,000 different versions of the bible.

Talk about exageration.

The Adventure of the English Bible - Teesocs

Since William Tyndale’s first complete New Testament in 1526 to the year 2000, there have been 3,000 new translations of the Bible into English.

 

[Youwerecreated]

But my understanding is that Jesus was not the same as any other human before or since. He was the son of god (or actually was god, I'm never sure how that works honestly) and had knowledge, wisdom and power that others do not have. So it would seem to me that god was not as we are and certainly that we cannot become gods.

This is really a silly discussion probably based on my lack of understanding of your beliefs more than anything, and I'm happy to let it go rather than use up more space in the thread if you are. Just call it my ignorance and we can go back to the many other pointless arguments going on.

Montrovant,it is very easy to understand once you read the bible in context.

That is why there are so many different religions because the bible is not read in it's entirety near enough by so called churches representing the truth. How can they know the truth if they do not consider all of the scriptures not just a certain few.

There are so many different religions because people read the scriptures without the Holy Spirit. And because of Pride.

Agreed.