If an EV is in your future, keep this issue in mind

[Robert W]

Do you understand that to get that hydrogen from the water, you have to put more energy into the process, than what you get back by burning that hydrogen?

On another note, with the majority of the Earth covered with water, consider that almost none of that water is significantly carbonated. This means that the Earth is flat,

There are other sources of hydrogen than ocean water. I mentioned it to remind all that water is hydrogen and oxygen. Carbonated means it has carbon dioxide in it. If you think the earth is flat, try flying above and then back under this disk you say it is.

 

[Robert W]

Do you understand that to get that hydrogen from the water, you have to put more energy into the process, than what you get back by burning that hydrogen?

On another note, with the majority of the Earth covered with water, consider that almost none of that water is significantly carbonated. This means that the Earth is flat,

I am okay as you are with gasoline. You laughed over going from Sacramento to LA using Hydrogen. First if your tank is large enough, no problem. Second there are supplies of hydrogen on the way to LA.

For the readers I plan an update from Judith Curry today so watch for it.

 

[Robert W]

Don't worry about it. We get warnings during a 2 day heat wave...in Maine- lol
Please use Do not use all your appliances after hours. ha ha ha.


right now- I have to charge- a drill- a chainsaw- a weed whacker- a Phone- batteries?
I can not wait till we all have plug in with cars.
ha ha ha

And they want all of us to use electric stoves and HEAT?
Do you environmental nuts have any clue what electric heat costs,, Anyone who listens to this propaganda is a nit wit!
get ready to pay up.
and once they got you- watch the cost go up.

When they read the problems, their eyes get watery and they squint and go na na na na. "We like Biden so much we will bow to this lord and master."

 

[Bob Blaylock]

There are other sources of hydrogen than ocean water. I mentioned it to remind all that water is hydrogen and oxygen.

Hydrogen is the most abundant element on Earth, and in the known Universe. But it very easily enters into reactions which release energy as it combines with other elements. Pure hydrogen is rare, on Earth, because of its reactivity.

In order to separate hydrogen from the other elements with which it has compounded, you have to put back the energy that was released when it combined. In an absolutely perfect, 100% efficient process (which does not exist), the amount of energy that it would take to release hydrogen from its compounds with other elements would be exactly the same amount of energy that you would get back when you burned that hydrogen. In reality, you will never get as much energy out of burning hydrogen, as you had to put into obtaining that hydrogen in the first place.

Carbonated means it has carbon dioxide in it. If you think the earth is flat, try flying above and then back under this disk you say it is.

And flat, in the context in which I used it, means not carbonated. Leave an open can of Coke overnight, and it goes flat.

 

[Robert W]

Hydrogen is the most abundant element on Earth, and in the known Universe. But it very easily enters into reactions which release energy as it combines with other elements. Pure hydrogen is rare, on Earth, because of its reactivity.

In order to separate hydrogen from the other elements with which it has compounded, you have to put back the energy that was released when it combined. In an absolutely perfect, 100% efficient process (which does not exist), the amount of energy that it would take to release hydrogen from its compounds with other elements would be exactly the same amount of energy that you would get back when you burned that hydrogen. In reality, you will never get as much energy out of burning hydrogen, as you had to put into obtaining that hydrogen in the first place.




And flat, in the context in which I used it, means not carbonated. Leave an open can of Coke overnight, and it goes flat.

Well Bob, all I can tell you is that they sure use a lot of this hydrogen for it to not be very good or too expensive as you describe.

 

[Robert W]

Hydrogen is the most abundant element on Earth, and in the known Universe. But it very easily enters into reactions which release energy as it combines with other elements. Pure hydrogen is rare, on Earth, because of its reactivity.

In order to separate hydrogen from the other elements with which it has compounded, you have to put back the energy that was released when it combined. In an absolutely perfect, 100% efficient process (which does not exist), the amount of energy that it would take to release hydrogen from its compounds with other elements would be exactly the same amount of energy that you would get back when you burned that hydrogen. In reality, you will never get as much energy out of burning hydrogen, as you had to put into obtaining that hydrogen in the first place.

Bob is genuinely hitting the ball as he should hit it. Both from adding information to this topic, but asking relevant questions. I am shocked at his questions since his replies at the least hint he is actually an expert on this topic of Hydrogen.

So how about I enlist some experts views on this.

"
Costs associated with 40 hydrogen technologies used in 35 applications, including for heat and power, could tumble dramatically over the next decade as the scale-up of hydrogen production, distribution, and equipment and component manufacturing continues. For some applications, hydrogen could become competitive with other low-carbon alternatives, and even conventional options. Those are key findings from an in-depth assessment of industry-provided hydrogen application costs that the Hydrogen Council—an international CEO-level advisory body—underscored in a Jan. 20–released report.

The findings offer an important glimpse at growing efforts to integrate hydrogen into the global energy framework. As part of concerted decarbonization goals, 18 governments (whose economies account for 70% of global gross domestic product) had developed detailed strategies for deploying hydrogen solutions, as of January. Industry, too, is paying attention to sharp improvements to cost drivers associated with “renewable” hydrogen production, and the versatile role hydrogen could play in future energy systems.

Industry Interest in Hydrogen Is Surging​

The Hydrogen Council, which serves as a point of collaboration for the hydrogen industry (but also a resource for safety standards and an interlocutor for the investment community), for example, noted its membership has surged from 13 companies in 2017 to 81 companies as of mid-January. “Core” power-sector members include CEOs from EDF, ENGIE, Equinor, Shell, Total, Siemens, and Cummins, and “supporting” members include ITOCHU Corp., Marubeni, and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. In 2020, the council also launched a new investor group, a membership category that currently comprises five European banks.

While the council actively promotes hydrogen as a critical component of future global industrial decarbonization, it admits that despite increased interest—and more than 30 major investments in segments such as heavy-duty trucking, rail, and steel production from low-carbon or renewable hydrogen—new projects have not yet been sanctioned. The group says this is “likely due to the lack of suitable policy and regulatory frameworks,” and, significantly, a lack of visibility on near-term and long-term economic viability and industry readiness. It suggests governments can boost the “hydrogen economy” with increased coordination, standardization, and by focusing on infrastructure investments, as well as providing incentives."

How Much Will Hydrogen-Based Power Cost?

Costs associated with 40 hydrogen technologies used in 35 applications, including for heat and power, could tumble dramatically over the next decade as

www.powermag.com

So i am not alone at all in this discussion of why we will use hydrogen should we run out of petroleum. PS, I believe we can create a product that works just like gasoline and it will suffice if hydrogen fails to work out.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I do not own an EV. But think of how much water is on the planet. And 75 percent of the surface is ocean. A huge supply of hydrogen.

Ocean water isn't a supply of hydrogen.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Bob is genuinely hitting the ball as he should hit it. Both from adding information to this topic, but asking relevant questions. I am shocked at his questions since his replies at the least hint he is actually an expert on this topic of Hydrogen.

So how about I enlist some experts views on this.

"
Costs associated with 40 hydrogen technologies used in 35 applications, including for heat and power, could tumble dramatically over the next decade as the scale-up of hydrogen production, distribution, and equipment and component manufacturing continues. For some applications, hydrogen could become competitive with other low-carbon alternatives, and even conventional options. Those are key findings from an in-depth assessment of industry-provided hydrogen application costs that the Hydrogen Council—an international CEO-level advisory body—underscored in a Jan. 20–released report.

The findings offer an important glimpse at growing efforts to integrate hydrogen into the global energy framework. As part of concerted decarbonization goals, 18 governments (whose economies account for 70% of global gross domestic product) had developed detailed strategies for deploying hydrogen solutions, as of January. Industry, too, is paying attention to sharp improvements to cost drivers associated with “renewable” hydrogen production, and the versatile role hydrogen could play in future energy systems.

Industry Interest in Hydrogen Is Surging​

The Hydrogen Council, which serves as a point of collaboration for the hydrogen industry (but also a resource for safety standards and an interlocutor for the investment community), for example, noted its membership has surged from 13 companies in 2017 to 81 companies as of mid-January. “Core” power-sector members include CEOs from EDF, ENGIE, Equinor, Shell, Total, Siemens, and Cummins, and “supporting” members include ITOCHU Corp., Marubeni, and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. In 2020, the council also launched a new investor group, a membership category that currently comprises five European banks.

While the council actively promotes hydrogen as a critical component of future global industrial decarbonization, it admits that despite increased interest—and more than 30 major investments in segments such as heavy-duty trucking, rail, and steel production from low-carbon or renewable hydrogen—new projects have not yet been sanctioned. The group says this is “likely due to the lack of suitable policy and regulatory frameworks,” and, significantly, a lack of visibility on near-term and long-term economic viability and industry readiness. It suggests governments can boost the “hydrogen economy” with increased coordination, standardization, and by focusing on infrastructure investments, as well as providing incentives."

How Much Will Hydrogen-Based Power Cost?

Costs associated with 40 hydrogen technologies used in 35 applications, including for heat and power, could tumble dramatically over the next decade as

www.powermag.com

So i am not alone at all in this discussion of why we will use hydrogen should we run out of petroleum. PS, I believe we can create a product that works just like gasoline and it will suffice if hydrogen fails to work out.

Costs associated with 40 hydrogen technologies used in 35 applications, including for heat and power, could tumble dramatically over the next decade as the scale-up of hydrogen production, distribution, and equipment and component manufacturing continues.

If the cost comes down, where are you getting the energy to produce the hydrogen?

 

[Robert W]

Costs associated with 40 hydrogen technologies used in 35 applications, including for heat and power, could tumble dramatically over the next decade as the scale-up of hydrogen production, distribution, and equipment and component manufacturing continues.

If the cost comes down, where are you getting the energy to produce the hydrogen?

Costs fall as production gains and also there is a learning curve effect.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Costs fall as production gains and also there is a learning curve effect.

Right.
And when you learn, where is the energy coming from?

 

[Robert W]

Right.
And when you learn, where is the energy coming from?

What energy are you asking about? Hydrogen is the source of energy once it is produced. To produce it there are several ways that over time will become far more economical than today. This is part of the learning curve.

Let me try to illustrate. I owned a machine shop in the late 1960s. I got jobs from various companies due to them not having the ability to make them or they needed more than they could then make.

So I bid on jobs. A particular job is what I will discuss. Fibreboard Corporation ordered 2 machines to be made by my firm that they engineered. The did not ask for a bid. My men were experts, still the cost to Fibreboard was more than they expected. So they wanted 4 more of the machines made by my firm but first I had to bid for them. They accepted my cheaper bid and I made more profit per unit than on the two I did not bid on earlier.
My machinists had a learning curve. And in the first go around, we had actually more parts than needed so those were used on the last order. It involved using a lathe to machine from a round bar of steel some parts that had to be curved and inside the parts were slots per the design. Anyway, we had this circular part and used it on the last order. That was another saving. And they were very pleased with the last order.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What energy are you asking about? Hydrogen is the source of energy once it is produced. To produce it there are several ways that over time will become far more economical than today. This is part of the learning curve.

Let me try to illustrate. I owned a machine shop in the late 1960s. I got jobs from various companies due to them not having the ability to make them or they needed more than they could then make.

So I bid on jobs. A particular job is what I will discuss. Fibreboard Corporation ordered 2 machines to be made by my firm that they engineered. The did not ask for a bid. My men were experts, still the cost to Fibreboard was more than they expected. So they wanted 4 more of the machines made by my firm but first I had to bid for them. They accepted my cheaper bid and I made more profit per unit than on the two I did not bid on earlier.
My machinists had a learning curve. And in the first go around, we had actually more parts than needed so those were used on the last order. It involved using a lathe to machine from a round bar of steel some parts that had to be curved and inside the parts were slots per the design. Anyway, we had this circular part and used it on the last order. That was another saving. And they were very pleased with the last order.

What energy are you asking about? Hydrogen is the source of energy once it is produced.

Yes, once it's produced.
What energy are you using to produce it?

To produce it there are several ways that over time will become far more economical than today. This is part of the learning curve.

The learning curve, as it stands today, is it takes more energy to get the hydrogen from the water, than you get out of it. So, where are you getting so much energy, that you can waste a lot of it, just to produce hydrogen?

What is the benefit that you imagine?

 

[Robert W]

What energy are you asking about? Hydrogen is the source of energy once it is produced.

Yes, once it's produced.
What energy are you using to produce it?

To produce it there are several ways that over time will become far more economical than today. This is part of the learning curve.

The learning curve, as it stands today, is it takes more energy to get the hydrogen from the water, than you get out of it. So, where are you getting so much energy, that you can waste a lot of it, just to produce hydrogen?

What is the benefit that you imagine?

Did I give you the idea that I am a hydrogen gas producer?
I will tip you off. What you want to know is easily found on the same internet as you use to read this forum. I have a hunch you know how to do that.
Did you read my post that fully addressed this issue? It is in this same thread.

 

[Rigby5]

What energy are you asking about? Hydrogen is the source of energy once it is produced.

Yes, once it's produced.
What energy are you using to produce it?

To produce it there are several ways that over time will become far more economical than today. This is part of the learning curve.

The learning curve, as it stands today, is it takes more energy to get the hydrogen from the water, than you get out of it. So, where are you getting so much energy, that you can waste a lot of it, just to produce hydrogen?

What is the benefit that you imagine?

Using catalysts like platinum, it is cheap and easy to get hydrogen by cracking water with hydrolysis.
The energy will come from whatever we decide to use, like nuclear, solar, wind, geothermal, etc.
Hydrogen is not the energy source, but the container, much like a light, liquid, battery, that allows for quick and easy refills instead of slow recharges.
Iceland has been doing hydrogen for decades.
Switzerland is doing it for buses and trucks.

Here is video about a Toyota hydrogen fuel cell car being sold.


The only drawback to hydrogen is the high pressures it needs, so it takes special hose and tank fittings.

Once you have hydrogen, you can choose to use it to power an EV with a fuel cell like space vehicles do, or you can simply burn the hydrogen in an ICE vehicle with water being the only emissions.

 

[Robert W]

I will submit another video showing how water can solve our problems.

Let's get smarter every day.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

What energy are you asking about? Hydrogen is the source of energy once it is produced

There is, no way, and never will be a way, to produce hydrogen for use as a fuel, that will not require more energy to be put into that process, than what you can get back out of it by burning that hydrogen.

You're trying to argue for the equivalent of perpetual motion.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

I will submit another video showing how water can solve our problems.
Let's get smarter every day.

Yeah, let's get “smarter”, by continuing to fall for old, disproven scams like that.

Water-fuelled car - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A water-fuelled car is an automobile that hypothetically derives its energy directly from water. Water-fuelled cars have been the subject of numerous international patents, newspaper and popular science magazine articles, local television news coverage, and websites. The claims for these devices have been found to be pseudoscience and some were found to be tied to investment frauds. These vehicles may be claimed to produce fuel from water on board with no other energy input, or may be a hybrid claiming to derive some of its energy from water in addition to a conventional source (such as gasoline).

Water is fully oxidized hydrogen. Hydrogen itself is a high-energy, flammable substance, but its useful energy is released when water is formed. Water will not burn. The process of electrolysis can split water into hydrogen and oxygen, but it takes as much energy to take apart a water molecule as was released when the hydrogen was oxidized to form water. In fact, some energy would be lost in converting water to hydrogen and then burning the hydrogen because some waste heat would always be produced in the conversions. Releasing chemical energy from water, in excess or in equal proportion to the energy required to facilitate such production, would therefore violate the first or second law of thermodynamics.​

​

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Did I give you the idea that I am a hydrogen gas producer?

You gave me the idea that when it comes to energy, you don't have a clue.

 

[Robert W]

You gave me the idea that when it comes to energy, you don't have a clue.

Well, you had to insult.

 

[Robert W]

Yeah, let's get “smarter”, by continuing to fall for old, disproven scams like that.

Water-fuelled car - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

​

A water-fuelled car is an automobile that hypothetically derives its energy directly from water. Water-fuelled cars have been the subject of numerous international patents, newspaper and popular science magazine articles, local television news coverage, and websites. The claims for these devices have been found to be pseudoscience and some were found to be tied to investment frauds. These vehicles may be claimed to produce fuel from water on board with no other energy input, or may be a hybrid claiming to derive some of its energy from water in addition to a conventional source (such as gasoline).​

​

Water is fully oxidized hydrogen. Hydrogen itself is a high-energy, flammable substance, but its useful energy is released when water is formed. Water will not burn. The process of electrolysis can split water into hydrogen and oxygen, but it takes as much energy to take apart a water molecule as was released when the hydrogen was oxidized to form water. In fact, some energy would be lost in converting water to hydrogen and then burning the hydrogen because some waste heat would always be produced in the conversions. Releasing chemical energy from water, in excess or in equal proportion to the energy required to facilitate such production, would therefore violate the first or second law of thermodynamics.​

​

​

Welcome to the world of learning.