Zone1 If all that one knows, believes, & follows is the "Great Commandment", will they go to Heaven?

[Lisa558]

Sounds like you are describing doing good deeds.

We Jews call them mitzvot.

 

[Lisa558]

Those who attempt to impose a heavy burden of manmade rules and regulations are in the wrong. The early church had those who wanted to impose the Jewish Law on Gentile believers, but were stopped when Paul noted that they, the Jews, couldn't even keep it. Jesus said His burden is light and His yoke is easy. Why do we try to load it up with a bunch of other stuff that He never intended us to carry?

Gd gave Jews 613 commandments. Why should we cast that off just because the followers of one man said it’s OK to? Jesus himself was a practicing Jew.

 

[ding]

We Jews call them mitzvot.

Thanks. I don't see how anyone can have a relationship with the Creator without it affecting the way they behave. I roll my eyes everytime I see someone profess belief in the Creator and then proceed to behave poorly towards others.

But that too has been addressed before; Isaiah 29:13 and Matthew 15:8-9.

 

[ding]

Gd gave Jews 613 commandments. Why should we cast that off just because the followers of one man said it’s OK to? Jesus himself was a practicing Jew.

Standards exist for logical reasons. God is logic among other "things."

 

[BreezeWood]

Gd gave Jews 613 commandments. Why should we cast that off just because the followers of one man said it’s OK to? Jesus himself was a practicing Jew.

the heavens gave jew's nothing as claimed by any jew not given to all living beings ...

Then they said, “Let us make life in our image, in our likeness, the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky the livestock and all the wild animals, and all the creatures that move along the ground.”

the heavens did not distinguish their creation despite the lies of moses ...

- jesus is never a jew or ever will be.

 

[ding]

the heavens gave jew's nothing as claimed by any jew not given to all living beings ...



the heavens did not distinguish their creation despite the lies of moses ...

- jesus is never a jew or ever will be.

Incorrect.

07 Judaism

Chapter VII. Judaism

Part One: Their Passion for Meaning

One-third of our Western civilization bears the mark of its Jewish ancestry. What lifted the Jews from obscurity to permanent religious greatness was their passion for meaning.

A. Meaning in God.

From a very early date, possibly from the very beginning of the biblical record, the Jews were monotheists.

The supreme achievement of Jewish thought was not in its monotheism as such, but in the character it ascribed to the God it intuited as One. God is a God of righteousness, whose loving-kindness is from everlasting to everlasting and whose tender mercies are in all his works.

B. Meaning in Creation.

Judaism affirms the world's goodness, arriving at that conclusion through its assumption that God created it. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" and pronounced it to be good.

To affirm that existence is God-created is to affirm its unimpeachable worth.

The Semitically originated religions emerge as exceptional in insisting that human beings are ineradicably body as well as spirit and that this coupling is not a liability.

C. Meaning in Human Existence.

The striking feature of the Jewish view of human nature is that without blinking at its frailty, it went on to affirm its unspeakable grandeur. We are a blend of dust and divinity.

Human beings, once created, make or break themselves, forging their own destinies through their decisions.

People are God's beloved children.

The ingredients of the most creatively meaningful image of human existence that the mind can conceive - grandeur, sin, freedom, divine parentage; it is difficult to find a flaw in this assessment.

D Meaning in History.

1. For the Bible, history is neither Hinduism maya, illusion or a Greek circular process of nature; it is the arena of God's purposive activity.

2. Second, if contexts are crucial for life, so is collective action; social action.

3. Third, nothing in history happens accidentally; God shapes each sequence as a teaching experience for his people.

4. Finally, all events are important but not equally important. Each opportunity is unique, but some are decisive. For India, human destiny lies outside history altogether. Judaism, by contrast laid the groundwork for social protest. It is in the lands influenced by the Jewish historical perspective that the chief thrusts for social betterment have occurred.

E. Meaning in Morality.

Without moral constraints, human relations would become as snarled as traffic in the Chicago loop if everyone drove at will. The Jewish formulation of "those wise restraints that make men free" is contained in her Law. The Hebrew Bible contains no less than 613 commandments that regulate human behavior. Four of these will suffice for our purposes: the four ethical precepts of the Ten Commandments, for it is through these that Hebraic morality has had its greatest impact.

Appropriated by Christianity and Islam, four of the Ten Commandments constitute the moral foundation of most of the Western world. There are four danger zones in human life that can cause unlimited trouble if they get out of hand:

1. Force - You can bicker and fight, but killing within the in-group will not be permitted, for it instigates blood feuds that shred community. Therefore thou shalt not murder.

2. Wealth - As for possessions, you may make your pile as large as you please and be shrewd and cunning in enterprise. One thing, though, you may not do, and that is pilfer directly off someone else's pile, for this outrages the sense of fair play and builds animosities that become ungovernable. Therefore thou shalt not steal.

3. Sex - You can be a rounder, flirtatious, even promiscuous, and though we do not comment such behavior, we will not get the law after you. But at one point we draw the line: Sexual indulgence of married persons outside the nuptial bond will not be allowed, for it rouses passions the community cannot tolerate. Therefore thou shalt not commit adultery.

4. Speech - You may dissemble and equivocate, but there is one time when we require that you tell the truth, and nothing but the truth. If a dispute reaches such proportions as to be brought before a tribunal, on such occasions the judges must know what happened. If you lie then, while under oath to tell the truth, the penalty will be severe. Thou shalt not bear false witness.

F. Meaning in Justice.

It is to a remarkable group of men we call the prophets more than to any others that Western civilization owes its convictions (1) that the future of any people depends in large part on the justice of its social order, and (2) that individuals are responsible for the social structures of their society as well as for their direct personal dealings.

Whereas the Pre-Writing Prophets Such as Elijah and Elisha challenged individuals the Writing Prophets such as Isaiah and Jeremiah challenged corruptions in the social order and oppressive institutions.

Thanks to the Prophets, what other nations would have interpreted as simply a power squeeze, the Jews saw as God's warning to clean up their national life: establish justice throughout the land, or be destroyed.

Stated abstractly, the Prophetic Principle can be put as follows: The prerequisite of political stability is social justice, for it is in the nature of things that injustice will not endure.

Stated theologically the point reads: God has high standards. God will not put up forever with exploitation, corruption, and mediocrity.

One thing is common to all the Jewish prophets: the conviction that every human being, simply by virtue of his or her humanity, is a child of God and therefore in possession of rights that even kings must respect. Wealth and splendor count for nothing compared with purity, justice, and mercy.

G. Meaning in Suffering.

From the eighth to the sixth centuries B. C., during which Israel and Judah tottered before the aggressive power of Syria, Assyria, Egypt, and Babylon, the prophets found meaning in their predicament by seeing it as God's way of underscoring the demand for righteousness.

God was using Israel's enemies against her. The experience of defeat and exile was teaching the Jews the true worth of freedom.

Another lesson was that those who remain faithful in adversity will be vindicated.

Stated abstractly, the deepest meaning the Jews found in their Exile was the meaning of vicarious suffering: meaning that enters lives that are willing to endure pain that others might be spared it. "the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all."

H. Meaning in Messianism.

Part Two: The Hallowing of Life. - Jewish ceremonies and observances

The West, influenced by the Greek partiality for abstract reason, emphasizes theology and creed, the East has approached religion through ritual and narrative.

Ritual plays a part in life that nothing else can fill. In Judaism it aims to hallow life - ideally, all life.

The name for the right approach to life and the world is piety. The secret of piety consists in seeing the entire world as belonging to God and reflecting God's glory.

The Jews preserve this sense of the sanctity of all things through tradition. Judaism the most historically minded of all religions finds holiness and history inseparable.

The basic manual for the hallowing of life is the Law, the first five books of the Bible.

Part Three: Revelation.

The Jews in their interpretation of the major areas of human experience arrived at a more profound grasp of meaning than any of their Mediterranean neighbors; a grasp that in its essentials has not been surpassed.

The Jew's say they did not reach these insight on their own. They were revealed to them.

For the Jews God revealed himself first and foremost in actions - not words but deeds. It was through miracles, divine intervention.

God took the imitative.

The God that the Exodus disclosed was powerful and a God of goodness and love. A God who was intensely concerned with human affairs. It followed that God would want people to be good as well.

Finally, suffering must carry significance because it was unthinkable that a God who had miraculously saved his people would ever abandon them completely. All this took shape for the Jews around the idea of the covenant.

Yahweh would continue to bless the Israelites if they, for their part, would honor the laws they had been given.

Part Four :The Chosen People.

The idea that a universal god decided that the divine nature should be uniquely and incomparably disclosed to a single people is among the most difficult notions to take seriously in the entire study of religion.

The Jews did not see themselves as singled out for privileges. They were chosen to serve, and to suffer the trials that service would often exact.

Isaiah's doctrine of vicarious suffering meant that the Jews were elected to shoulder a suffering that would otherwise have been distributed more widely.

It is the doctrine that God's doings can focus like a burning glass on particular times, places, and peoples - in the interest, to be sure, of intentions that embrace human beings universally.

Part Five: Israel.

Judaism cannot be reduced to its biblical period. In 70 A.D. the Romans destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem and the focus of Judaism shifted to Rabbinic Judaism - from the sacrificial rite of the Temple to the study of the Torah and its accompanying Oral Tradition in academies and synagogues around the world.

Today, almost two thousand years later, there are four great sectors of Judaism that still constitute its spiritual anatomy - faith, observance, culture, and nation.

The reasons for the establishment of the modern of Israel in 1948 present complex problems. Without presuming to answer these problems, we can appreciate the burdens they place on the conscience of this exceptionally conscientious people.

 

[hadit]

Sounds like you are describing doing good deeds.

I am describing walking in obedience, which goes far beyond deeds and to the mind. Jesus elevated adultery from the physical act to the thoughts. He elevated murder from the physical act to the thoughts. When I walk in obedience, I set my mind on God and my actions follow. When my mind and attitudes are focused on me instead of on Him, my actions then become selfish, not Godly. So you see, you don't need a church to set up a bunch of good deeds for you to do in order to be right with God, you need to set your mind on Him and the rest will follow naturally.

 

[hadit]

You mean like the 613 commandments in the Torah?

Do you know what standards are and why they exist?

Of course I know what standards are, and I also know that the early church debated fiercely on whether to require Gentile Christians to follow the law. They decided no, Gentile Christians do not need to be saddled with the Law, obeying Christ's commands was all that was required. Do you follow the Mosaic Law and expect others to do so as well?

 

[hadit]

Gd gave Jews 613 commandments. Why should we cast that off just because the followers of one man said it’s OK to? Jesus himself was a practicing Jew.

Yes, He certainly was, and He came to fulfill the law. He gave us the two most important commandments, and if we follow them, we will end up obeying the spirit of the Law. Do you follow the Mosaic Law, even though the early church did not impose it on believers?

 

[ding]

Of course I know what standards are, and I also know that the early church debated fiercely on whether to require Gentile Christians to follow the law. They decided no, Gentile Christians do not need to be saddled with the Law, obeying Christ's commands was all that was required. Do you follow the Mosaic Law and expect others to do so as well?

Then you might want to stop saying things like, "you will do those things."

And say things like, "it doesn't matter one bit what you do."

 

[ding]

Of course I know what standards are, and I also know that the early church debated fiercely on whether to require Gentile Christians to follow the law. They decided no, Gentile Christians do not need to be saddled with the Law, obeying Christ's commands was all that was required. Do you follow the Mosaic Law and expect others to do so as well?

Are standards arbitrary?

 

[hadit]

Then you might want to stop saying things like, "you will do those things."

And say things like, "it doesn't matter one bit what you do."

Christ said all of the Law is contained in those two commandments. What do YOU think will happen when you follow them completely? Do you think you will act rebelliously toward God? Do you think you will mistreat your neighbor?

What do you think will happen?

 

[hadit]

Are standards arbitrary?

Not if they're God's standards. Define what you mean by standards.

 

[ding]

Christ said all of the Law is contained in those two commandments. What do YOU think will happen when you follow them completely? Do you think you will act rebelliously toward God? Do you think you will mistreat your neighbor?

What do you think will happen?

Dude, I'm not going to argue with you about your hypocrisy. You change positions to suit your purpose. What you do matters when you say it does. What you do doesn't matter when you say it doesn't. This is an artifact of embracing the form of religion rather than the spirit of God. You say rules don't matter as you throw rules from the Bible at me.

I already know why standards exist. They exist for logical reasons that reveal themselves when one violates the standards. What you do matters. Otherwise, it's just lip service.

 

[hadit]

Dude, I'm not going to argue with you about your hypocrisy. You change positions to suit your purpose. What you do matters when you say it does. What you do doesn't matter when you say it doesn't. This is an artifact of embracing the form of religion rather than the spirit of God. You say rules don't matter as you throw rules from the Bible at me.

Let me stop you right there, I didn't say rules don't matter. Words mean things and you need to understand what you're writing before you write them. God sets standards for behavior in His Word. Man then makes rules to implement those standards and make them relevant to everyday life. Example:

God says to be modest in our appearance. The first century church set rules saying that means women should have their heads covered and should be covered from head to foot. You know, like Muslims still do today. Do you follow the rules from the first century ME and make the women in your life be so covered, or do you follow rules (implementation of the standards) more relevant to America in 2024, and thus more convenient for you? Here's the thing. A Christian woman dressed as a 2024 American, heck 1965 American, would have been considered far outside the modesty guidelines of the early church. Why are you not hung up on the rules as they were laid down then? Are you not changing them to suit what you want now? The Amish stopped changing the rules in about 1865 and forbid the use of electricity and rubber tires. Do you follow their example?

Of course you do none of those things, you follow the rules you want in 2024 because they suit you.

I already know why standards exist. They exist for logical reasons that reveal themselves when one violates the standards. What you do matters. Otherwise, it's just lip service.

Yes, what we do matters, and if we follow the commandments Christ gave, our actions will fall in line with what God wants in our lives. What is so hard about that for you to grasp? God doesn't want us following rules, He wants our hearts to be in tune with Him so He can direct us where HE wants us. If we obey the two commandments Christ gave us, we will inevitably follow the spirit of God's Law.

 

[ding]

Not if they're God's standards. Define what you mean by standards.

You need for me to define what standards are for you? Standards are a level of quality or attainment. Standards exist for everything you do. Standards exist for logical reasons. When one deviates from the standard and normalizes his deviance to the standard, the reason the standard existed will be revealed through predictable surprises. If you need a few examples of this let me know.

 

[ding]

Let me stop you right there, I didn't say rules don't matter. Words mean things and you need to understand what you're writing before you write them. God sets standards for behavior in His Word. Man then makes rules to implement those standards and make them relevant to everyday life. Example:

God says to be modest in our appearance. The first century church set rules saying that means women should have their heads covered and should be covered from head to foot. You know, like Muslims still do today. Do you follow the rules from the first century ME and make the women in your life be so covered, or do you follow rules (implementation of the standards) more relevant to America in 2024, and thus more convenient for you? Here's the thing. A Christian woman dressed as a 2024 American, heck 1965 American, would have been considered far outside the modesty guidelines of the early church. Why are you not hung up on the rules as they were laid down then? Are you not changing them to suit what you want now? The Amish stopped changing the rules in about 1865 and forbid the use of electricity and rubber tires. Do you follow their example?

Of course you do none of those things, you follow the rules you want in 2024 because they suit you.

Yes, what we do matters, and if we follow the commandments Christ gave, our actions will fall in line with what God wants in our lives. What is so hard about that for you to grasp? God doesn't want us following rules, He wants our hearts to be in tune with Him so He can direct us where HE wants us. If we obey the two commandments Christ gave us, we will inevitably follow the spirit of God's Law.

I see you using words like rules and standards and can't help but think how you were railing against rules and standards. And now you are arguing what we do matters.

 

[hadit]

You need for me to define what standards are for you? Standards are a level of quality or attainment. Standards exist for everything you do. Standards exist for logical reasons. When one deviates from the standard and normalizes his deviance to the standard, the reason the standard existed will be revealed through predictable surprises. If you need a few examples of this let me know.

Exactly, standards are not rules. Rules are the implementation of standards. I follow the rules of the congregation I am attending, understanding that those rules are an implementation of God's standards that are relevant to the Congregation at that time. I also do not expect other congregations to have all the same rules and march in lockstep with us, because that's not the unity of the Body that God calls us to. We are not all Catholic, we do not all march to the Pope's drumbeat, but we ARE expected to love God with everything we have and love our neighbor like we do ourselves. If we do that, we will be in accordance with God's Law.

 

[hadit]

I see you using words like rules and standards and can't help but think how you were railing against rules and standards. And now you are arguing what we do matters.

I have never said what we do doesn't matter. If you can find such a thing, quote it.

I HAVE said, and believe, that the condition of the heart is what matters to God, because if the heart is for Him, the actions will follow and be in His will.

 

[ding]

Exactly, standards are not rules. Rules are the implementation of standards. I follow the rules of the congregation I am attending, understanding that those rules are an implementation of God's standards that are relevant to the Congregation at that time. I also do not expect other congregations to have all the same rules and march in lockstep with us, because that's not the unity of the Body that God calls us to. We are not all Catholic, we do not all march to the Pope's drumbeat, but we ARE expected to love God with everything we have and love our neighbor like we do ourselves. If we do that, we will be in accordance with God's Law.

Rules are based on standards, dummy.