Zone1 If a follower of Judaism simply cannot keep Shabbat, is there a way to make amends?

[Foxfyre]

It's a both simple and complex answer. Shabbat starts at sundown Friday until it is dark enough to see 3 starts Saturday. Candle lighting times on Jewish calendars are 18 minutes before sundown to 1 hour after. Absent those, Shabbat is the period of time between lighting candles on Friday night and Havdalah on Saturday night.

Interesting. But maybe all Jewish traditions do not follow that most reasonable formula?

Chabad.org for instance says this on their website:
"Caution: Shabbat candles must be lit before sunset. It's a desecration of the Shabbat to light candles after sunset.

Shabbat candle lighting times listed are 18 minutes before sunset, however please allow yourself enough time to perform this time-bound mitzvah at the designated time; do not wait until the last minute."

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www.chabad.org

As a Christian and never a Jew, I would never assume any authority or privilege to instruct a Jewish person on what they should or must believe in matters of God's law. But most of my Jewish friends/acquaintances seem to hold to the concept that keeping the spirit of God's law is what He requires.

That happens to be pretty much the rule of thumb I go by as well.


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[AsherN]

Interesting. But maybe all Jewish traditions do not follow that most reasonable formula?

Chabad.org for instance says this on their website:
"Caution: Shabbat candles must be lit before sunset. It's a desecration of the Shabbat to light candles after sunset.

Shabbat candle lighting times listed are 18 minutes before sunset, however please allow yourself enough time to perform this time-bound mitzvah at the designated time; do not wait until the last minute."

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www.chabad.org

As a Christian and never a Jew, I would never assume any authority or privilege to instruct a Jewish person on what they should or must believe in matters of God's law. But most of my Jewish friends/acquaintances seem to hold to the concept that keeping the spirit of God's law is what He requires.

That happens to be pretty much the rule of thumb I go by as well.


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There is what it should be, and what it is. I'm at home with a proper clock, I follow 18 hours before to 1 hour after. I'm somewhere with no clock, it will be close to sundown until after sundown. Given no other choice, keeping the spirit of the Law is better than not keeping at all.

 

[Foxfyre]

There is what it should be, and what it is. I'm at home with a proper clock, I follow 18 hours before to 1 hour after. I'm somewhere with no clock, it will be close to sundown until after sundown. Given no other choice, keeping the spirit of the Law is better than not keeping at all.

True. My personal belief is that God appreciates our faithfulness to Him in our heart however we interpret that faithfulness. From your post I think you are probably on the same page there. Shalom my friend.

 

[BreezeWood]

You actually abandoned God and went off and built a religion called Judaism.

that is true of all three desert religions - their 10000 page documents ...

for several reasons such as there wasn't discourse within the garden of paradise, those two were sent on their way with blessing to determine for themselves their own self determination - called adulthood, and the opportunity for remission if so desired.

no atonmemt is required for anyone pertaining to any event they are not personally involved with.

 

[rosends]

Yes, and I already checked my calendar: Rosh Hashana starts at 7 pm tomorrow night -come rain, sun, or clouds.

I assume I say Shabbos blessing over candles FIRST, and then Rosh Hashana….yes? And then sheheheyanu?

From the chabad.org website:

Candle-Lighting Blessing for Rosh Hashanah Coinciding With Shabbat​

Blessed are You, L-rd, our G‑d, King of the universe, who has sanctified us with His commandments and has commanded us to light the candle of Shabbat and of the Day of Remembrance.

בָּרוּךְ אַתָּה ה' אֱלֹהֵינוּ מֶלֶךְ הָעוֹלָם, אֲשֶׁר קִדְּשָׁנוּ בְּמִצְוֹתָיו וְצִוָּנוּ לְהַדְלִיק נֵר שֶׁל שַׁבָּת וְשֶׁל יוֹם הַזִּכָּרוֹן

then shehechyanu

 

[Lisa558]

Same candles. Blessing chanes to ner shel yom tov v'shabbat

Thank you! Do we say shehahenyu afterward?

 

[Cougarbear]

that is true of all three desert religions - their 10000 page documents ...

for several reasons such as there wasn't discourse within the garden of paradise, those two were sent on their way with blessing to determine for themselves their own self determination - called adulthood, and the opportunity for remission if so desired.

no atonmemt is required for anyone pertaining to any event they are not personally involved with.

And therefore, you believe in anything. Anything goes based on the whims of the majority or those in control of a tyrannical state. I prefer a constitution put together by the influence of God of the dessert religions. There is solid grounding to base all others laws from without usurping individual freedoms while keeping a sane and thriving country. Unlike what we have today going on in the U.S. Thus, I reject your opinion. But, thanks for sharing.

 

[Lisa558]

It's a both simple and complex answer. Shabbat starts at sundown Friday until it is dark enough to see 3 starts Saturday. Candle lighting times on Jewish calendars are 18 minutes before sundown to 1 hour after. Absent those, Shabbat is the period of time between lighting candles on Friday night and Havdalah on Saturday night.

Havdalah after Yom Kippur is one of the most beautiful moments in the entire year. IMO.

 

[rosends]

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful response. I really didn't feel badly toward those who treated me badly because they had no way to know I was being honestly sincere. To them I was just one of many of cruel or mean spirited people who went into those chatrooms to make trouble or demean or trash their religious beliefs. Too often such malicious people do that with a leading question intended to generate a response they can attack. You see it here on USMB all the time done to both Christians and Jews and probably other faiths as well.

Yes we can get information on sundown on the internet of course. But this question I think assumed everybody doesn't use a computer or know how to access that information and may or may not have access to a Jewish calendar in the home. I thought the kind gentleman who responded to me provided a practical and believable solution.

I thought about the 1979 movie "The Frisco Kid" in which Gene Wilder plays a 19th century rabbi trying to get to his new assignment at a synagogue in San Francisco and is helped by a bank robber, (Harrison Ford), as they cross the country to get there. They are being pursued by a posse and the bank robber is frustrated when the rabbi will not ride his horse on the Sabbath. And he is squinting and looking for the exact time the sun disappears behind the horizon at which time he mounts the horse and they go full steam again. And several of us who had watched that movie wondered how he would have handled it if it was a cloudy day and the exact moment of sundown couldn't be seen.

I use that movie in my class and the scene with sundown gets laughs (even though it isn't exactly following the Jewish law, as the sabbath ends when one can see 3 medium sized stars in the sky, not when the sun goes below the horizon). In the olden days, people did rely on observations and Jewish law has to wrestle with that.

This site has the text of the Code of Jewish laws

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www.chabad.org

 

[AsherN]

Havdalah after Yom Kippur is one of the most beautiful moments in the entire year. IMO.

Agreed. In a full shul the atmosphere is incredible. For the first time in a long time, I won't be able to be at shul for the HHD. it saddens me a great deal.
At least I can watch the live stream.

 

[Cougarbear]

Havdalah after Yom Kippur is one of the most beautiful moments in the entire year. IMO.

Day of Atonement. A precursor to the great atonement of Jesus Christ. Not so beautiful moment. Repentance for our sins should not feel or seem beautiful until we get confirmation of our forgiveness. Fasting to feel pain and humility that is not so beautiful.

 

[Lisa558]

Agreed. In a full shul the atmosphere is incredible. For the first time in a long time, I won't be able to be at shul for the HHD. it saddens me a great deal.
At least I can watch the live stream.

I’m sorry you won‘t be able to attend In person.

But I thought you were Orthodox. How can you watch the livestream, and how is the shul even doing it?

 

[Lisa558]

Day of Atonement. A precursor to the great atonement of Jesus Christ. Not so beautiful moment. Repentance for our sins should not feel or seem beautiful until we get confirmation of our forgiveness. Fasting to feel pain and humility that is not so beautiful.

Please…..butt out. You were Jewish, rejected the religion, and now have the chutzpah to desecrate out beliefs….and our beautiful moments? And interject about Jesus? He has no bearing on Judaism.

 

[AsherN]

I’m sorry you won‘t be able to attend In person.

But I thought you were Orthodox. How can you watch the livestream, and how is the shul even doing it?

Not Orthodox. I belong to a Reform shul. Not all reform Jews are non-observant. You would be surprised on how many of our congregants either keep kosher, or at least broadly follow the restrictions.

 

[Foxfyre]

I use that movie in my class and the scene with sundown gets laughs (even though it isn't exactly following the Jewish law, as the sabbath ends when one can see 3 medium sized stars in the sky, not when the sun goes below the horizon). In the olden days, people did rely on observations and Jewish law has to wrestle with that.

This site has the text of the Code of Jewish laws

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www.chabad.org

Yes and thank you. I posted a link to that website in response to another person. I doubt many Jewish people are quite as strict as Chabad's interpretation of the Law.

 

[DudleySmith]

Chabad Lubavitch is a nutjob racist cult. Nothing from its 'teachings' is valid.

 

[rosends]

Yes and thank you. I posted a link to that website in response to another person. I doubt many Jewish people are quite as strict as Chabad's interpretation of the Law.

Actually, at least speaking of Orthodox Jewry, the Chabad website is pretty normative as it is quoting the central texts of Jewish law.

 

[Cougarbear]

Please…..butt out. You were Jewish, rejected the religion, and now have the chutzpah to desecrate out beliefs….and our beautiful moments? And interject about Jesus? He has no bearing on Judaism.

He was Jewish…So, you are incorrect.
Sin is not a beautiful thing. The ritual of killing an animal is not a beautiful thing. Especially because you sinned an animal has to die for you to be forgiven. Not beautiful. I simply reject the twisted beliefs from the truth. It’s my calling and duty to warn my neighbors of this and offer the correct solutions.

 

[Lisa558]

He was Jewish…So, you are incorrect.
Sin is not a beautiful thing. The ritual of killing an animal is not a beautiful thing. Especially because you sinned an animal has to die for you to be forgiven. Not beautiful. I simply reject the twisted beliefs from the truth. It’s my calling and duty to warn my neighbors of this and offer the correct solutions.

1) Jesus has no bearing on Judaism. That he was Jewish doesn’t matter.

2) It is not your duty to “offer correct solutions.” Who are YOU to tell people that are wrong and you are correct?

3) I didn’t say sin is a beautiful thing. I said Havdalah following Yom Kippur is one of the most beautiful moments of the year. We have been cleansed of our sins as Gd has forgiven us.

 

[AsherN]

Actually, at least speaking of Orthodox Jewry, the Chabad website is pretty normative as it is quoting the central texts of Jewish law.

And many non-Orthodox follow close to Chabad. And they are a great resource.