I will not Bow!

[P F Tinmore]

Those 'international boundaries' marked the territorial limits of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt, as these abutted the unincorporated, unchartered region then known as Palestine.

From a political perspective, those boundaries marked the end of nation-states, and the beginning of a void or vacuum which had no standing as an incorporated, chartered, autonomous polity.

Towns annex unincorporated lands all the time.

Sometimes, the inhabitants of such unincorporated lands seek to set themselves up as a new and independent polity.

Sometimes, such scenarios find the residents divided into (a) those who want a new polity and (b) those who don't want to participate.

Sometimes, such divisions erupt into bickering, or even violence.

Sometimes, when such violence occurs, the residents end-up scrambling for land and dividing it up with as much advantage to their own faction as may be practicable.

Sometimes, when the faction with the least land wakes up and realizes that they've been bested, they start to piss and moan and play the whiney ***** and claim they actually owned everything and that the other faction are thieves.

When, in truth, it's merely a matter of the other side being smarter and faster and more competent and forward-thinking.

Sour grapes and sore losers.

And then we see the hangers-on, a generation or two later, keeping the pissing and moaning alive, and deluding themselves that old boundaries for incorporated nation-states actually rendered the void or vacuum the status of statehood as well.

It's an amusing little parlor trick, but embarrassingly transparent, and really not going anywhere, legally or - more importantly - practically.

Hogwash.

Hogwash?

How so?

Was 'Palestine' an incorporated, chartered, autonomous, self-governing, internationally-recognized nation-state in 1948 at the termination of the Mandate?

If the answer to that is 'No' - for all practical purposes - then the post as NOT hogwash, but, rather, accurately describes a political vaccum which underwent a division of territory.

Don't unincorporated lands oftentimes set up as a new polity, or divide into factions wanting one solution or another?

And, were the Muslim-Arab Palestinians not 'bested' by the Jewish Palestinians, in that the Jews successfully divided-up the land in order to put part of it under their own control, as they set up as a new polity (the State of Israel)?

Wherein lies the hogwash?

Was 'Palestine' an incorporated, chartered, autonomous, self-governing, blah, blah, blah.

Not required.

 

[toastman]

Hogwash.

Hogwash?

How so?

Was 'Palestine' an incorporated, chartered, autonomous, self-governing, internationally-recognized nation-state in 1948 at the termination of the Mandate?

If the answer to that is 'No' - for all practical purposes - then the post as NOT hogwash, but, rather, accurately describes a political vaccum which underwent a division of territory.

Don't unincorporated lands oftentimes set up as a new polity, or divide into factions wanting one solution or another?

And, were the Muslim-Arab Palestinians not 'bested' by the Jewish Palestinians, in that the Jews successfully divided-up the land in order to put part of it under their own control, as they set up as a new polity (the State of Israel)?

Wherein lies the hogwash?

Was 'Palestine' an incorporated, chartered, autonomous, self-governing, blah, blah, blah.

Not required.

Well, at least you finally admit that Palestine wasn't a country in 1948, after runnig around the forum spewing your usual: It was the Zionists who came to take over the country of Palestine"

LOL

 

[Kondor3]

"...Not required."

Incorrect. You cannot advance and sustain a 'prior claim' of statehood status without such attributes.

And you've done nothing (so far) to substantiate your protestation of 'hogwash', with regard to that post.

Substance, Tinny... substance.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

THE Islamic Nations see Israel as a new Crusader invasion created by Europeans and Western Support by the compliant American Congress ...

The ordinary person has supported rebellion against any leader or dictators that supported the West...The Arab Spring is a result of this living process...

Israel needs to make its case by signing a peace treaty or time and constant friction will doom her Politically and eventually bankruptcy...Israel needs to spread economic prosperity in the area which will spark Democracies and stability.

Its Israel's choice: prosperity for their enemies and brothers genetically or future exhaustive conflict or acceptance?

The Arabs have used this method of resistance and thus far it has worked.

Muslim anti-Semitism existed long before the the 'birth' of Israel.

As for the opposing claims to Jerusalem consider this (and then go to the link to read the entire article):

Conclusion

Politics, not religious sensibility, has fueled the Muslim attachment to Jerusalem for nearly fourteen centuries; what the historian Bernard Wasserstein has written about the growth of Muslim feeling in the course of the Countercrusade applies through the centuries: "often in the history of Jerusalem, heightened religious fervour may be explained in large part by political necessity."

This pattern has three main implications.

First, Jerusalem will never be more than a secondary city for Muslims; "belief in the sanctity of Jerusalem," Sivan rightly concludes, "cannot be said to have been widely diffused nor deeply rooted in Islam."

Second, the Muslim interest lies not so much in controlling Jerusalem as it does in denying control over the city to anyone else.

Third, the Islamic connection to the city is weaker than the Jewish one because it arises as much from transitory and mundane considerations as from the immutable claims of faith.

The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem :: Daniel Pipes

Why no mention of the Jerusalemite Christians? They are being kicked out by Israel too. What is the story about that?

That is not true. If you'd ever visit Jerusalem once in your life, you'd see Christian monks, nuns and priests all walking around in the different costumes/habits of their various denominations. Wonderful sight! There is also a charming Armenian Christian quarter in the Old City.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Hogwash?

How so?

Was 'Palestine' an incorporated, chartered, autonomous, self-governing, internationally-recognized nation-state in 1948 at the termination of the Mandate?

If the answer to that is 'No' - for all practical purposes - then the post as NOT hogwash, but, rather, accurately describes a political vaccum which underwent a division of territory.

Don't unincorporated lands oftentimes set up as a new polity, or divide into factions wanting one solution or another?

And, were the Muslim-Arab Palestinians not 'bested' by the Jewish Palestinians, in that the Jews successfully divided-up the land in order to put part of it under their own control, as they set up as a new polity (the State of Israel)?

Wherein lies the hogwash?

Was 'Palestine' an incorporated, chartered, autonomous, self-governing, blah, blah, blah.

Not required.

Well, at least you finally admit that Palestine wasn't a country in 1948, after runnig around the forum spewing your usual: It was the Zionists who came to take over the country of Palestine"

LOL

No I didn't.

 

[toastman]

Not required.

Well, at least you finally admit that Palestine wasn't a country in 1948, after runnig around the forum spewing your usual: It was the Zionists who came to take over the country of Palestine"

LOL

No I didn't.

Well it doesn;t really matter, because at the end of the day, Palestine STILL wasn't a country in 1948, and your constant denial makes you look like a 9 year old

 

[Kondor3]

Hogwash?

How so?

Was 'Palestine' an incorporated, chartered, autonomous, self-governing, internationally-recognized nation-state in 1948 at the termination of the Mandate?

If the answer to that is 'No' - for all practical purposes - then the post as NOT hogwash, but, rather, accurately describes a political vaccum which underwent a division of territory.

Don't unincorporated lands oftentimes set up as a new polity, or divide into factions wanting one solution or another?

And, were the Muslim-Arab Palestinians not 'bested' by the Jewish Palestinians, in that the Jews successfully divided-up the land in order to put part of it under their own control, as they set up as a new polity (the State of Israel)?

Wherein lies the hogwash?

Was 'Palestine' an incorporated, chartered, autonomous, self-governing, blah, blah, blah.

Not required.

Well, at least you finally admit that Palestine wasn't a country in 1948, after runnig around the forum spewing your usual: It was the Zionists who came to take over the country of Palestine"

LOL

An interesting and ironic and comical development...

Implicit admission of 'Nonexistent Status', with regard to statehood.

In light of the context surrounding the remark, it's just as powerful as an explicit admission.

I'd consider bookmarking the post (or your own response, which he can't edit) for future use.

 

[Kondor3]

Not required.

Well, at least you finally admit that Palestine wasn't a country in 1948, after runnig around the forum spewing your usual: It was the Zionists who came to take over the country of Palestine" LOL

No I didn't.

Au contraire, mine good colleague.

Yes, you did.

As outlined in my Post #147...

An interesting and ironic and comical development...

Thank you.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Muslim anti-Semitism existed long before the the 'birth' of Israel.

As for the opposing claims to Jerusalem consider this (and then go to the link to read the entire article):



The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem :: Daniel Pipes

Why no mention of the Jerusalemite Christians? They are being kicked out by Israel too. What is the story about that?

That is not true. If you'd ever visit Jerusalem once in your life, you'd see Christian monks, nuns and priests all walking around in the different costumes/habits of their various denominations. Wonderful sight! There is also a charming Armenian Christian quarter in the Old City.

And Christians are considered foreigners by Israel. They can, and do, have their "permits" revoked at Israel's whims and they can no longer live in their hometown. They can, and do, have their homes bulldozed at Israel's whims. Christians in the area are regularly denied access to their holy sites.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Well, at least you finally admit that Palestine wasn't a country in 1948, after runnig around the forum spewing your usual: It was the Zionists who came to take over the country of Palestine" LOL

No I didn't.

Au contraire, mine good colleague.

Yes, you did.

Thank you.

Where?

 

[Kondor3]

No I didn't.

Au contraire, mine good colleague. Yes, you did. Thank you.

Where?

Read my post No. 147... an implicit admission ( 'Not required' ) within the given context carries all the power of an explicit admission.

Sooner or later you were bound to slip up.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Why no mention of the Jerusalemite Christians? They are being kicked out by Israel too. What is the story about that?

That is not true. If you'd ever visit Jerusalem once in your life, you'd see Christian monks, nuns and priests all walking around in the different costumes/habits of their various denominations. Wonderful sight! There is also a charming Armenian Christian quarter in the Old City.

And Christians are considered foreigners by Israel. They can, and do, have their "permits" revoked at Israel's whims and they can no longer live in their hometown. They can, and do, have their homes bulldozed at Israel's whims. Christians in the area are regularly denied access to their holy sites.

Last year, 2013, saw the highest ratio of Christian Arab volunteers in the Israeli army to date.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, Phoenall, et al,

The international boundaries are set and recognized by the parties to the boundary lines. In the case of Egypt and Jordan, they are set by the respective treaty:

• A/50/73 S/1995/83 27 January 1995 Treaty with Jordan See Article III

• Treaty Document 26 March 1979 State of Israel and the Arab Republic of Egypt See Article II

Because of hostile Arab intervention, multiple wars over time, the arrangement between Lebanon and Israel has a number of facets to it.

International borders are flexible?

Do you have a link for that? Under what terms can international borders be changed?

(COMMENT)

The Palestinians see what they want to see, relative to the international boundary dispute between Lebanon and Israel.

First to answer the question in a straight forward manner: International Boundaries change all the time though history using any number of mechanisms. In the case of Israel, the boundaries were last altered by treaty and, in the case of Lebanon-Israel, by state-to-state recognition brokered through the UN.

Reference: A/54/914 S/2000/564 12 June 2000 Letter dated 9 June 2000 from the President of Lebanon addressed to the Secretary-General

If you read the referenced letter, you will see that Lebanon had a concern that the name and the distinction of the border line was an issue. You will note the following:



Now I invite you all to read the letter in its entirety. Because the letter expresses the concern by the President of Lebanon, that unscrupulous people might take advantage of the UN ambiguity between the “withdrawal line” rather than the “boundary line” in breach of Security Council resolution 425 (1978) calling "for strict respect for the territorial integrity, sovereignty and political independence of Lebanon within its internationally recognized boundaries."

The Hostile Arab-Palestinians (HoAP) may, at any time, as outside observer having no standing in the matter and no legal basis in the matter, channeling the scope and nature of the boundary between Israel and Lebanon. But at the end of the day, the HoAP, has nothing to say about it. The boundary is what the two states (Lebanon and Israel) want to call it. At the opening of the 21st Century, it pleases Lebanon to call it an "International Boundary" and they seem to object to it being portrayed by any other party as something otherwise.

Most Respectfully,
R

All this but you did not answer my question. "Under what terms can international borders be changed?"

You posted S/RES/425 (1978) of 19 March 1978

Calls for strict respect for the territorial integrity, sovereignty and political independence of Lebanon within its internationally recognized boundaries;

This is about Lebanon's territorial integrity inside Lebanon's international borders. It says nothing about any Israeli territory or borders.

The international boundaries between Lebanon and Palestine were defined by post WWI treaties. The only "border" between Lebanon and Israel is the 1949 armistice line. (and later the "blue line" but still no border) This line did not separate a place called Israel from Lebanon but merely stated a line that neither military forces were to cross.

Here we go again THERE WERE NO INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARIES FOR PALESTINE. You see the country/nation of Palestine has never existed, even the filastins admit this as a fact. Now under res242 Israel was supposed to agree mutually respected borders with its neighbours, and there is no mention of Palestine whatsoever, which they have done to a certain extent. So unless there have been secret talks the situation is clear there has never been a country/nation of Palestine so it cant have international borders.

Here is a 1921 map showing the extent of Palestine and if you look you see that Israel is not included.

 

[Phoenall]

THE Islamic Nations see Israel as a new Crusader invasion created by Europeans and Western Support by the compliant American Congress ...

The ordinary person has supported rebellion against any leader or dictators that supported the West...The Arab Spring is a result of this living process...

Israel needs to make its case by signing a peace treaty or time and constant friction will doom her Politically and eventually bankruptcy...Israel needs to spread economic prosperity in the area which will spark Democracies and stability.

Its Israel's choice: prosperity for their enemies and brothers genetically or future exhaustive conflict or acceptance?

The Arabs have used this method of resistance and thus far it has worked.

Muslim anti-Semitism existed long before the the 'birth' of Israel.

As for the opposing claims to Jerusalem consider this (and then go to the link to read the entire article):

Conclusion

Politics, not religious sensibility, has fueled the Muslim attachment to Jerusalem for nearly fourteen centuries; what the historian Bernard Wasserstein has written about the growth of Muslim feeling in the course of the Countercrusade applies through the centuries: "often in the history of Jerusalem, heightened religious fervour may be explained in large part by political necessity."

This pattern has three main implications.

First, Jerusalem will never be more than a secondary city for Muslims; "belief in the sanctity of Jerusalem," Sivan rightly concludes, "cannot be said to have been widely diffused nor deeply rooted in Islam."

Second, the Muslim interest lies not so much in controlling Jerusalem as it does in denying control over the city to anyone else.

Third, the Islamic connection to the city is weaker than the Jewish one because it arises as much from transitory and mundane considerations as from the immutable claims of faith.

The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem :: Daniel Pipes

Why no mention of the Jerusalemite Christians? They are being kicked out by Israel too. What is the story about that?

How about you produce a link from a reputable and unbiased source that shows this ?

 

[Phoenall]

THE Islamic Nations see Israel as a new Crusader invasion created by Europeans and Western Support by the compliant American Congress ...

The ordinary person has supported rebellion against any leader or dictators that supported the West...The Arab Spring is a result of this living process...

Israel needs to make its case by signing a peace treaty or time and constant friction will doom her Politically and eventually bankruptcy...Israel needs to spread economic prosperity in the area which will spark Democracies and stability.

Its Israel's choice: prosperity for their enemies and brothers genetically or future exhaustive conflict or acceptance?

The Arabs have used this method of resistance and thus far it has worked.

Muslim anti-Semitism existed long before the the 'birth' of Israel.

As for the opposing claims to Jerusalem consider this (and then go to the link to read the entire article):

Conclusion

Politics, not religious sensibility, has fueled the Muslim attachment to Jerusalem for nearly fourteen centuries; what the historian Bernard Wasserstein has written about the growth of Muslim feeling in the course of the Countercrusade applies through the centuries: "often in the history of Jerusalem, heightened religious fervour may be explained in large part by political necessity."

This pattern has three main implications.

First, Jerusalem will never be more than a secondary city for Muslims; "belief in the sanctity of Jerusalem," Sivan rightly concludes, "cannot be said to have been widely diffused nor deeply rooted in Islam."

Second, the Muslim interest lies not so much in controlling Jerusalem as it does in denying control over the city to anyone else.

Third, the Islamic connection to the city is weaker than the Jewish one because it arises as much from transitory and mundane considerations as from the immutable claims of faith.

The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem :: Daniel Pipes

Posters like your plead anti-Semitism yet support the expropriation of land from a helpless defenseless population...Israel does not seem to understand the world community that this is against International Law...The last time a land grab in Serbia we bombed it to smithereens...She only hangs on to US Power because of AIPAC Control of Congress...

Only American withdrawal of support will reign her in. We desperately need Campaign fFinance Reform to Remove Money from Politics!

Yes and you bombed the wrong side leaving the true land owners homeless and starving, while the muslims from the M.E carved up the land for themselves. Have you learnt nothing from what happened in Yugoslavia

 

[P F Tinmore]

Not required.

Well, at least you finally admit that Palestine wasn't a country in 1948, after runnig around the forum spewing your usual: It was the Zionists who came to take over the country of Palestine"

LOL

An interesting and ironic and comical development...

Implicit admission of 'Nonexistent Status', with regard to statehood.

In light of the context surrounding the remark, it's just as powerful as an explicit admission.

I'd consider bookmarking the post (or your own response, which he can't edit) for future use.

That 'Nonexistent Status' is just Israeli propaganda. You obviously have no clue as to the history of Palestine.

In international law, when a state is dissolved and new states are established, “the population follows the change of sovereignty in matters of nationality.”5 As a rule, therefore, citizens of the former state should automatically acquire the nationality of the successor state in which they had already been residing.

In a broader international context, the “Nationality law… showed that the Palestinians formed a nation, and that Palestine was a State, though provisionally under guardianship.”90 The inclusion of Palestinian nationality in the text of the Palestine Mandate was the first step towards an international recognition of the Palestinian people as distinct from the Ottoman people and other peoples. Palestinian nationality, like any other nationality, constitutes the formula by which a certain group of individuals are being legally connected and enabled to form the people element of the state.91

Nationality constitutes a legal bond that connects individuals with a specific territory, making them citizens of that territory. It is therefore imperative to examine the boundaries of Palestine in order to define the piece of land on which Palestinian nationality was established.

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

When the mandate left Palestine it was no longer under guardianship. Therefore, the Palestinians formed a government and declared independence inside its international borders in 1948. It did not encroach on any other territory.

 

[docmauser1]

Keep making a mockery of common sense and Justice by trying to sell the world your Victim Hood...The World Powers all recalled Israeli ambassadors over the continuos land theft of Palestinian lands through settlement building, yesterday. Frankly I wish America would wash our hands of this thieving state...We have lost many thousands of our children soldiers fighting Israel's enemies...America is self-sufficient in Oil...Let the Europeans deal with the Right Wing Zionists they have a lot more experience than us...

Yeah, right.

 

[docmauser1]

THE Islamic Nations see Israel as a new Crusader invasion created by Europeans and Western Support by the compliant American Congress ...

It isn't surprising - "the islamic nations" are stuck in the year 1100, of course.

 

[docmauser1]

This is about Lebanon's territorial integrity inside Lebanon's international borders. It says nothing about any Israeli territory or borders.

Funny. Lebanon has no borders!

 

[pbel]

Muslim anti-Semitism existed long before the the 'birth' of Israel.

As for the opposing claims to Jerusalem consider this (and then go to the link to read the entire article):



The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem :: Daniel Pipes

Posters like your plead anti-Semitism yet support the expropriation of land from a helpless defenseless population...Israel does not seem to understand the world community that this is against International Law...The last time a land grab in Serbia we bombed it to smithereens...She only hangs on to US Power because of AIPAC Control of Congress...

Only American withdrawal of support will reign her in. We desperately need Campaign fFinance Reform to Remove Money from Politics!

Yes and you bombed the wrong side leaving the true land owners homeless and starving, while the muslims from the M.E carved up the land for themselves. Have you learnt nothing from what happened in Yugoslavia

I see, right wing Zionists would have preferred the US to support Milosevic and the Holocaust murderer Ratko Miladic? You right wingers act like Fascists.