I will not Bow!

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are something.


(COMMENT)

The citation you posted, is well known and is equally invalid and unsound. It comes months after the Jewish Agency declared independence of Israel. Even the Arab League understood that it was invalid; and was (one) the main reason the Arab League dissolved that iteration of the Arab Higher Committee (AHC) which submitted it for incompetence.

The AHC did not follow the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" set by the General Assembly; and territorially covered territory already declared independent. Thus the nonsensical declaration went unrecognized.

Most Respectfully,
R

The citation you posted, is well known and is equally invalid and unsound. It comes months after the Jewish Agency declared independence of Israel.

Irrelevant. The Palestinians did not encroach on any territory claimed by Israel.

Actually his post is relevant, while yours is more lies.

The so called 1948 DOI was unrecognized, and came too little too late.

Israels DOI came before that, and was RECOGNIZED by the U.N as well was MANY countries.

This is a very simple matter that a monkey could understand.

ARTICLE 3

The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,...

The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933

 

[RoccoR]

pbel, et al,

Some Palestinian claims have some merit.

That people who support the expulsion of the Palestinians from their Homelands are Fascists, Mauser.

(COMMENT)

The refugee column in 1948, is not the result of a single action or cause. It was a result of a number of actions taken by a number of parties for a number of reasons.

• Part of the Refugee Issue was the Order to Leave:

The Reference;

• Part of the Refugee Issue is explained by the natural migration of the population away from the battlefield.

• Part of the Refugee Issue is explained by potential combatants pushing hostile populations out of the rear area to prevent stay-behind operations.

There are a number of reasons for the movement of refugees toward the areas already infiltrated by the Arab Legion prior to May 1948.

Everyone of the regional players had a hand in the refugee trail. The real issue is that the Arab Legion expected, given the fact that they had pre-positioned forces already inside the FEBA (Forward Edge of the Battle Area), five sets of forces (Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Iraq) ready to jump across the FEBA and attack, as well as --- fifth columnists [Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP)] inside the FEBA --- all set to simultaneously, a swift victory and a defeat over the Israeli defenders; which would allow the refugees to return to their homes quickly. They never envisioned a tactical defeat.

Remember, the returning HoAP already made this oath, fresh at the time:

The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child.

I beg to remain, etc.
/s/ Isa Nakhleh
Representative of the
Arab Higher Committee​

SOURCE: A/AC.21/10 16 February 1948

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[docmauser1]

ARTICLE 3 The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,...

Cool, so, who was that pasha, effendi, shakh, sultan, bei, president, prime-minister of that "state of palestine"?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Don't be so foolish!

Irrelevant. The Palestinians did not encroach on any territory claimed by Israel.

Actually his post is relevant, while yours is more lies.

The so called 1948 DOI was unrecognized, and came too little too late.

Israels DOI came before that, and was RECOGNIZED by the U.N as well was MANY countries.

This is a very simple matter that a monkey could understand.

ARTICLE 3

The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,...

The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933

(COMMENT)

If you check with the Treaty Commission, you'll notice this is a regional agreement that pertains to the "Americas" and not the Middle East. It is only signed by members of the Organization of American States.

Secondly, and most importantly, no one has the right to stand-up and take a country away from another just by declaration. The Arabs, after the fact, cannot stand-up and say that their belated declaration can take precedence over the Israeli Declaration. Even the 1933 Convention does not permit that. Especially since the Israeli Declaration came after General Assembly resolution and followed the recommendation and implementation process.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Don't be so foolish!

Actually his post is relevant, while yours is more lies.

The so called 1948 DOI was unrecognized, and came too little too late.

Israels DOI came before that, and was RECOGNIZED by the U.N as well was MANY countries.

This is a very simple matter that a monkey could understand.

ARTICLE 3

The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,...

The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933

(COMMENT)

If you check with the Treaty Commission, you'll notice this is a regional agreement that pertains to the "Americas" and not the Middle East. It is only signed by members of the Organization of American States.

This treaty did not create that law, it merely reiterated existing international norms. There is virtual unanimous recognition of that law worldwide.

Secondly, and most importantly, no one has the right to stand-up and take a country away from another just by declaration. The Arabs, after the fact, cannot stand-up and say that their belated declaration can take precedence over the Israeli Declaration. Even the 1933 Convention does not permit that. Especially since the Israeli Declaration came after General Assembly resolution and followed the recommendation and implementation process.

You have that backwards. Israel was declared inside Palestine's international borders. Israel never acquired any land for its declared state.

Palestine declared independence inside its own borders. They did not encroach on any other state.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Don't be so foolish!

ARTICLE 3

The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,...

The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933

(COMMENT)

If you check with the Treaty Commission, you'll notice this is a regional agreement that pertains to the "Americas" and not the Middle East. It is only signed by members of the Organization of American States.

This treaty did not create that law, it merely reiterated existing international norms. There is virtual unanimous recognition of that law worldwide.

Secondly, and most importantly, no one has the right to stand-up and take a country away from another just by declaration. The Arabs, after the fact, cannot stand-up and say that their belated declaration can take precedence over the Israeli Declaration. Even the 1933 Convention does not permit that. Especially since the Israeli Declaration came after General Assembly resolution and followed the recommendation and implementation process.

You have that backwards. Israel was declared inside Palestine's international borders. Israel never acquired any land for its declared state.

Palestine declared independence inside its own borders. They did not encroach on any other state.

Most Respectfully,
R

A dispute regarding the status of the territories was settled by an Arbitrator appointed by the Council of the League of Nations. It was decided that Palestine and Transjordan were newly created states according to the terms of the applicable post-war treaties.

State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
-------------------

In a broader international context, the “Nationality law… showed that the Palestinians formed a nation, and that Palestine was a State, though provisionally under guardianship.

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel
------------------

...DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE...

A/C.1/330 of 14 October 1948
---------------------

ARTICLE 3

The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,...

The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The Mandate of Palestine had borders artificially set by the Allied Powers. (AGREED)

You have that backwards. Israel was declared inside Palestine's international borders. Israel never acquired any land for its declared state.

Palestine declared independence inside its own borders. They did not encroach on any other state.

(COMMENT)

But there was no State of Palestine with independence and sovereignty on its own. It was former enemy territory held in trust, to be administered and subject to a disposition to be determined by the Allied Powers through the Mandate Commission of the League of Nations.

The State of Israel (The Jewish State) was part of the disposition; established inside the former Mandate Territory (named Palestine by the Allied Powers) pursuant to a Partition Plan approved by the General Assembly.

The State of Israel (The Jewish State) was not established inside Palestinian Borders, because there was no such thing; only the Mandate of Palestine which was something much larger than discussed today and included Transjordan. The Hashemite Kingdom was established first from the Mandate of Palestine, then Israel. The Arab Palestinian remnants declined to establish the third Arab State under the Partition Plan until November 1988. Until then, the Arab Palestinian remnants had no recognized sovereignty over any territory in the Region.

Palestine DID NOT declared independence inside its own borders; because it had no borders. Until the termination of the Mandate, the adjacent-surrounding nations held common borders with the Mandatory over the Mandate of Palestine (UK) and not the Palestinians. On the termination of the Mandate, the power and authority of the Mandatory passed to the UN Palestine Commission by instruction of the UN and under supervision of the Security Council.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[abu afak]

....
Lying again....
Mahmoud Abbas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Main article:.....

So aside form being a Nazi sympathizer with all the antisemitic trimmings... what has Abbas said about the situation?

"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, Imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and Threw them into Prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemmed to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The ARAB States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did Not Recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is Regrettable".

- by Abu Mazen, from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, March 1976

`

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The Mandate of Palestine had borders artificially set by the Allied Powers. (AGREED)

You have that backwards. Israel was declared inside Palestine's international borders. Israel never acquired any land for its declared state.

Palestine declared independence inside its own borders. They did not encroach on any other state.

(COMMENT)

But there was no State of Palestine with independence and sovereignty on its own. It was former enemy territory held in trust, to be administered and subject to a disposition to be determined by the Allied Powers through the Mandate Commission of the League of Nations.

The State of Israel (The Jewish State) was part of the disposition; established inside the former Mandate Territory (named Palestine by the Allied Powers) pursuant to a Partition Plan approved by the General Assembly.

The State of Israel (The Jewish State) was not established inside Palestinian Borders, because there was no such thing; only the Mandate of Palestine which was something much larger than discussed today and included Transjordan. The Hashemite Kingdom was established first from the Mandate of Palestine, then Israel. The Arab Palestinian remnants declined to establish the third Arab State under the Partition Plan until November 1988. Until then, the Arab Palestinian remnants had no recognized sovereignty over any territory in the Region.

Palestine DID NOT declared independence inside its own borders; because it had no borders. Until the termination of the Mandate, the adjacent-surrounding nations held common borders with the Mandatory over the Mandate of Palestine (UK) and not the Palestinians. On the termination of the Mandate, the power and authority of the Mandatory passed to the UN Palestine Commission by instruction of the UN and under supervision of the Security Council.

Most Respectfully,
R

Your post is based on false premise. The mandate had no borders. It was assigned to Palestine. It worked inside Palestine's borders. When the mandate left Palestine, Palestine was still there within its international borders. This was still true in 1949.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is a unsound trail of bread crumbs.

P F Tinmore, et al,

Don't be so foolish!


(COMMENT)

If you check with the Treaty Commission, you'll notice this is a regional agreement that pertains to the "Americas" and not the Middle East. It is only signed by members of the Organization of American States.

This treaty did not create that law, it merely reiterated existing international norms. There is virtual unanimous recognition of that law worldwide.



You have that backwards. Israel was declared inside Palestine's international borders. Israel never acquired any land for its declared state.

Palestine declared independence inside its own borders. They did not encroach on any other state.

Most Respectfully,
R

A dispute regarding the status of the territories was settled by an Arbitrator appointed by the Council of the League of Nations. It was decided that Palestine and Transjordan were newly created states according to the terms of the applicable post-war treaties.

State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
-------------------

In a broader international context, the “Nationality law… showed that the Palestinians formed a nation, and that Palestine was a State, though provisionally under guardianship.

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel
------------------

...DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE...

A/C.1/330 of 14 October 1948
---------------------

ARTICLE 3

The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,...

The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933

(COMMENT)

Wikipedia is NOT an official interpretation of the events. But even if it was, it clearly states:

• Palestine, officially the State of Palestine (Arabic: دولة فلسطين* Dawlat Filasṭīn), is a de jure sovereign state[13][14] in the Levant that declared independence on 15 November 1988 by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and its government-in-exile in Algiers.

Again, you are using a Regional Treaty (Signatories limited to the Organization of American States) and not applicable to the Middle East.

As for the Arbitration, we discussed this last November in Post #68. This is a civil suit in which the UK (as the effective successor government under the Mandate) was held accountable for a monetary claim, and not Turkey and not even considering the Palestinians.

P F Tinmore, et al,

The problem with some sources is that you don't always get the intent.

Reference: File E. c. V. Docket VI. 2. Judgment No. 5 26 March 1925 The Mavrommatis Jerusalem Concessions - Greece v. Britain Judgment

1. That the concessions granted to M. Mavrommatis under the Agreements signed on January 27th, 1914, between him and the City of Jerusalem, regarding certain works to be carried out at Jerusalem, are valid;

• That the existence, for a certain space of time, of a right on the part of M. Rutenberg to require the annulment of the aforesaid concessions of M. Mavrommatis was not in conformity with the international obligations accepted by the Mandatory for Palestine;
• That no loss to M. Mavrommatis, resulting from this circumstance, has been proved;
• That therefore the Greek Government's claim for an indemnity must be dismissed;

2. That Article 4 of the Protocol signed at Lausanne on July 23rd, 1923, concerning certain concessions granted in the Ottoman Empire, is applicable to the above-mentioned concessions granted to M. Mavrommatis.

A dispute regarding the status of the territories was settled by an Arbitrator appointed by the Council of the League of Nations. It was decided that Palestine and Transjordan were newly created states according to the terms of the applicable post-war treaties. In its Judgment No. 5, The Mavrommatis Palestine Concessions, the Permanent Court of International Justice also decided that Palestine was responsible as the successor state for concessions granted by Ottoman authorities. The Courts of Palestine and Great Britain decided that title to the properties shown on the Ottoman Civil list had been ceded to the government of Palestine as an allied successor state.

State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(OBSERVATION)

Your claim is not valid or sound. It is a derivative interpretation of a Civil Contract dispute pertaining to contract concessions awarded, pre-mandate and post-mandate. The interpretation comes from:

Marjorie M. Whiteman, Digest of International Law, vol. 1, U.S. State Department (Washington, DC: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1963) pp 650–652​

Judgment #5 is specific to Jerusalem, and not the greater Mandate. While all five of the judgments are effected by political consequences, none of the judgments have an impact on the political questions relative to the Palestine Question.

I have provided you the links in question, and also include the links to the dissenting opinions relative to the courts decisions and judgments. In the 1920's and 1930's. For contract law purposes, given the number and types of mandates floating about, it was not uncommon for the court to refer to the Mandatory as the government of the territory; example, Government of Palestine meaning the UK as the Mandatory. And, in fact you will see that the judgments are written in colonial style, and not post-colonial style, referring to the "Crown Agents for the Colonies on behalf of the High Commissioner for Palestine."

The nuance of "successor state" is mentioned exactly four (4) times in the judgment. It is mention in citation #70, relative Ottoman subject status; citation #93, that the successor States are placed under an obligation to maintain the concessions referred to in Article 9 of the Protocol; citation #113, the principles which were to govern the situation of successor States as regards concessions granted by the Ottoman authorities; and citation #121, where the successor State must readapt the concessions to the new economic conditions. In each case (open for you to examine), the successor state is none other than the Mandatory (UK).

To my knowledge, no international court has recognized the Palestinians as having the accountability of a government prior to November 1988.

I offer the ICJ Link above for you to read the actual Judgement #5.

I hope this answers your question.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Again, you are using a Regional Treaty (Signatories limited to the Organization of American States) and not applicable to the Middle East.

Montevideo Convention, in full Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States, agreement signed at Montevideo, Uruguay, on December 26, 1933 (and entering into force the following year), that established the standard definition of a state under international law.

Montevideo Convention (international agreement [1933]) -- Encyclopedia Britannica

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, I believe you to be mistaken.

The Mandate of Palestine had borders artificially set by the Allied Powers. (AGREED)

You have that backwards. Israel was declared inside Palestine's international borders. Israel never acquired any land for its declared state.

Palestine declared independence inside its own borders. They did not encroach on any other state.

(COMMENT)

But there was no State of Palestine with independence and sovereignty on its own. It was former enemy territory held in trust, to be administered and subject to a disposition to be determined by the Allied Powers through the Mandate Commission of the League of Nations.

The State of Israel (The Jewish State) was part of the disposition; established inside the former Mandate Territory (named Palestine by the Allied Powers) pursuant to a Partition Plan approved by the General Assembly.

The State of Israel (The Jewish State) was not established inside Palestinian Borders, because there was no such thing; only the Mandate of Palestine which was something much larger than discussed today and included Transjordan. The Hashemite Kingdom was established first from the Mandate of Palestine, then Israel. The Arab Palestinian remnants declined to establish the third Arab State under the Partition Plan until November 1988. Until then, the Arab Palestinian remnants had no recognized sovereignty over any territory in the Region.

Palestine DID NOT declared independence inside its own borders; because it had no borders. Until the termination of the Mandate, the adjacent-surrounding nations held common borders with the Mandatory over the Mandate of Palestine (UK) and not the Palestinians. On the termination of the Mandate, the power and authority of the Mandatory passed to the UN Palestine Commission by instruction of the UN and under supervision of the Security Council.

Most Respectfully,
R

Your post is based on false premise. The mandate had no borders. It was assigned to Palestine. It worked inside Palestine's borders. When the mandate left Palestine, Palestine was still there within its international borders. This was still true in 1949.

(COMMENT)

You need to read the Treaty carefully.

ARTICLE 94.

The High Contracting Parties agree that Syria and Mesopotamia shall, in accordance with the fourth paragraph of Article 22.

Part I (Covenant of the League of Nations), be provisionally recognised as independent States subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.

A Commission shall be constituted within fifteen days from the coming into force of the present Treaty to trace on the spot the frontier line described in Article 27, II (2) and (3). This Commission will be composed of three members nominated by France, Great Britain and Italy respectively, and one member nominated by Turkey; it will be assisted by a representative of Syria for the Syrian frontier, and by a representative of Mesopotamia for the Mesopotamian frontier.

The determination of the other frontiers of the said States, and the selection of the Mandatories, will be made by the Principal Allied Powers.​

ARTICLE 95.

The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

SOURCE: THE TREATY OF PEACE BETWEEN THE ALLIED AND ASSOCIATED POWERS AND TURKEY SIGNED AT SÈVRES AUGUST 10, 1920

The Treaty was aligned to fit the earlier Sykes-Picot Agreement which was broad scope arrangement. Under the Treaty, there were no boundaries for Palestine. It was a territory defined by the Mandatory. The Treaty said:

2. With Syria:
From a point to be chosen on the eastern bank of the outlet of the Hassan Dede, about 3 kilometres north-west of Karatash Bu- run, north-eastwards to a point to be chosen on the Djaihun Irmak about 1 kilometre north of Babeli, a line to be fixed on the ground passing north of Karatash; thence to Kesik Kale, the course of the Djaihun Irmak upstream;
thence north-eastwards to a point to be chosen on the Djaihun Irmak about 15 kilometres east-southeast of Karsbazar, a line to be fixed on the ground passing north of Kara Tepe;
thence to the bend in the Djaihun Irmak situated west of Duldul Dagh, the course of the Djaihun Irmak upstream;
thence in a general south-easterly direction to a point to be chosen on Emir Musi Dagh about 15 kilometres south-south-west of Giaour Geul a line to be fixed on the ground at a distance of about 18 kilometres from the railway, and leaving Duldul Dagh to Syria;
thence eastwards to a point to be chosen about 5 kilometres north of Urfa a generally straight line from west to east to be hxed on the ground passing north of the roads connecting the towns of Bagh- che, Aintab, Biridjik, and Urfa and leaving the last three named towns to Syria;
thence eastwards to the south-western extremity of the bend in the Tigris about 6 kilometres north of Azekh (27 kilometres west of Djezire-ibn-Omar), a generally straight line from west to east to be fixed on the ground leaving the town of Mardin to Syria;
thence to a point to be chosen on the Tigris between the point of confluence of the Khabur Su with the Tigris and the bend in the Tigris situated about 10 kilometres north of this point,
the course of the Tigris downstream, leaving the island on which is situated the town of Djezire-ibn-Omar to Syria.

3. With Mesopotamia:
Thence in a general easterly direction to a point to be chosen on the northern boundary of the vilayet of Mosul, a line to be fixed on the ground;
thence eastwards to the point where it meets the frontier between Turkey and Persia,
the northern boundary of the vilayet of Mosul, modified, however, so as to pass south of Amadia.

4. On the East and the North East:
From the point above defined to the Black Sea, the existing frontier between Turkey and Persia, then the former frontier between Turkey and Russia, subject to the provisions of Article 89.

5. The Black Sea.

SOURCE: THE TREATY OF PEACE BETWEEN THE ALLIED AND ASSOCIATED POWERS AND TURKEY SIGNED AT SÈVRES AUGUST 10, 1920

The Mandatory defined "Palestine" and not the regional indigenous population.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[pbel]

What does this drivel mean?

That people who support the expulsion of the Palestinians from their Homelands are Fascists, Mauser.

"So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population." said Churchill.
Looks like those major arab settlers expelled themselves from their respective "homelands", of course.

"Zionists have been stealing my cheese for centuries!" Mickey Mouse. Of course.

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Don't be so foolish!

ARTICLE 3

The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,...

The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933

(COMMENT)

If you check with the Treaty Commission, you'll notice this is a regional agreement that pertains to the "Americas" and not the Middle East. It is only signed by members of the Organization of American States.

This treaty did not create that law, it merely reiterated existing international norms. There is virtual unanimous recognition of that law worldwide.

Secondly, and most importantly, no one has the right to stand-up and take a country away from another just by declaration. The Arabs, after the fact, cannot stand-up and say that their belated declaration can take precedence over the Israeli Declaration. Even the 1933 Convention does not permit that. Especially since the Israeli Declaration came after General Assembly resolution and followed the recommendation and implementation process.

You have that backwards. Israel was declared inside Palestine's international borders. Israel never acquired any land for its declared state.

Palestine declared independence inside its own borders. They did not encroach on any other state.

Most Respectfully,
R

Again, for the 1000th times, acquiring land is a real estate matter. Israel legally declared independence in 1948, recognized by the U.N and many countries, including the U.S.

Your 'Israel never acquired land from Palestine' argument is, as you always say, based on false premise.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, I believe you to be mistaken.

The Mandate of Palestine had borders artificially set by the Allied Powers. (AGREED)


(COMMENT)

But there was no State of Palestine with independence and sovereignty on its own. It was former enemy territory held in trust, to be administered and subject to a disposition to be determined by the Allied Powers through the Mandate Commission of the League of Nations.

The State of Israel (The Jewish State) was part of the disposition; established inside the former Mandate Territory (named Palestine by the Allied Powers) pursuant to a Partition Plan approved by the General Assembly.

The State of Israel (The Jewish State) was not established inside Palestinian Borders, because there was no such thing; only the Mandate of Palestine which was something much larger than discussed today and included Transjordan. The Hashemite Kingdom was established first from the Mandate of Palestine, then Israel. The Arab Palestinian remnants declined to establish the third Arab State under the Partition Plan until November 1988. Until then, the Arab Palestinian remnants had no recognized sovereignty over any territory in the Region.

Palestine DID NOT declared independence inside its own borders; because it had no borders. Until the termination of the Mandate, the adjacent-surrounding nations held common borders with the Mandatory over the Mandate of Palestine (UK) and not the Palestinians. On the termination of the Mandate, the power and authority of the Mandatory passed to the UN Palestine Commission by instruction of the UN and under supervision of the Security Council.

Most Respectfully,
R

Your post is based on false premise. The mandate had no borders. It was assigned to Palestine. It worked inside Palestine's borders. When the mandate left Palestine, Palestine was still there within its international borders. This was still true in 1949.

(COMMENT)

You need to read the Treaty carefully.

ARTICLE 94.

The High Contracting Parties agree that Syria and Mesopotamia shall, in accordance with the fourth paragraph of Article 22.

Part I (Covenant of the League of Nations), be provisionally recognised as independent States subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.

A Commission shall be constituted within fifteen days from the coming into force of the present Treaty to trace on the spot the frontier line described in Article 27, II (2) and (3). This Commission will be composed of three members nominated by France, Great Britain and Italy respectively, and one member nominated by Turkey; it will be assisted by a representative of Syria for the Syrian frontier, and by a representative of Mesopotamia for the Mesopotamian frontier.

The determination of the other frontiers of the said States, and the selection of the Mandatories, will be made by the Principal Allied Powers.​

ARTICLE 95.

The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

SOURCE: THE TREATY OF PEACE BETWEEN THE ALLIED AND ASSOCIATED POWERS AND TURKEY SIGNED AT SÈVRES AUGUST 10, 1920

The Treaty was aligned to fit the earlier Sykes-Picot Agreement which was broad scope arrangement. Under the Treaty, there were no boundaries for Palestine. It was a territory defined by the Mandatory. The Treaty said:

2. With Syria:
From a point to be chosen on the eastern bank of the outlet of the Hassan Dede, about 3 kilometres north-west of Karatash Bu- run, north-eastwards to a point to be chosen on the Djaihun Irmak about 1 kilometre north of Babeli, a line to be fixed on the ground passing north of Karatash; thence to Kesik Kale, the course of the Djaihun Irmak upstream;
thence north-eastwards to a point to be chosen on the Djaihun Irmak about 15 kilometres east-southeast of Karsbazar, a line to be fixed on the ground passing north of Kara Tepe;
thence to the bend in the Djaihun Irmak situated west of Duldul Dagh, the course of the Djaihun Irmak upstream;
thence in a general south-easterly direction to a point to be chosen on Emir Musi Dagh about 15 kilometres south-south-west of Giaour Geul a line to be fixed on the ground at a distance of about 18 kilometres from the railway, and leaving Duldul Dagh to Syria;
thence eastwards to a point to be chosen about 5 kilometres north of Urfa a generally straight line from west to east to be hxed on the ground passing north of the roads connecting the towns of Bagh- che, Aintab, Biridjik, and Urfa and leaving the last three named towns to Syria;
thence eastwards to the south-western extremity of the bend in the Tigris about 6 kilometres north of Azekh (27 kilometres west of Djezire-ibn-Omar), a generally straight line from west to east to be fixed on the ground leaving the town of Mardin to Syria;
thence to a point to be chosen on the Tigris between the point of confluence of the Khabur Su with the Tigris and the bend in the Tigris situated about 10 kilometres north of this point,
the course of the Tigris downstream, leaving the island on which is situated the town of Djezire-ibn-Omar to Syria.

3. With Mesopotamia:
Thence in a general easterly direction to a point to be chosen on the northern boundary of the vilayet of Mosul, a line to be fixed on the ground;
thence eastwards to the point where it meets the frontier between Turkey and Persia,
the northern boundary of the vilayet of Mosul, modified, however, so as to pass south of Amadia.

4. On the East and the North East:
From the point above defined to the Black Sea, the existing frontier between Turkey and Persia, then the former frontier between Turkey and Russia, subject to the provisions of Article 89.

5. The Black Sea.

SOURCE: THE TREATY OF PEACE BETWEEN THE ALLIED AND ASSOCIATED POWERS AND TURKEY SIGNED AT SÈVRES AUGUST 10, 1920

The Mandatory defined "Palestine" and not the regional indigenous population.

Most Respectfully,
R

You are using old, outdated material. The treaty of Sevres never went into affect. It was replaced shortly thereafter by the Treaty of Lausanne.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Don't be so foolish!


(COMMENT)

If you check with the Treaty Commission, you'll notice this is a regional agreement that pertains to the "Americas" and not the Middle East. It is only signed by members of the Organization of American States.

This treaty did not create that law, it merely reiterated existing international norms. There is virtual unanimous recognition of that law worldwide.



You have that backwards. Israel was declared inside Palestine's international borders. Israel never acquired any land for its declared state.

Palestine declared independence inside its own borders. They did not encroach on any other state.

Most Respectfully,
R

Again, for the 1000th times, acquiring land is a real estate matter. Israel legally declared independence in 1948, recognized by the U.N and many countries, including the U.S.

Your 'Israel never acquired land from Palestine' argument is, as you always say, based on false premise.

Didn't the US acquire land from Mexico?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, I believe you to be mistaken.

The Mandate of Palestine had borders artificially set by the Allied Powers. (AGREED)


(COMMENT)

But there was no State of Palestine with independence and sovereignty on its own. It was former enemy territory held in trust, to be administered and subject to a disposition to be determined by the Allied Powers through the Mandate Commission of the League of Nations.

The State of Israel (The Jewish State) was part of the disposition; established inside the former Mandate Territory (named Palestine by the Allied Powers) pursuant to a Partition Plan approved by the General Assembly.

The State of Israel (The Jewish State) was not established inside Palestinian Borders, because there was no such thing; only the Mandate of Palestine which was something much larger than discussed today and included Transjordan. The Hashemite Kingdom was established first from the Mandate of Palestine, then Israel. The Arab Palestinian remnants declined to establish the third Arab State under the Partition Plan until November 1988. Until then, the Arab Palestinian remnants had no recognized sovereignty over any territory in the Region.

Palestine DID NOT declared independence inside its own borders; because it had no borders. Until the termination of the Mandate, the adjacent-surrounding nations held common borders with the Mandatory over the Mandate of Palestine (UK) and not the Palestinians. On the termination of the Mandate, the power and authority of the Mandatory passed to the UN Palestine Commission by instruction of the UN and under supervision of the Security Council.

Most Respectfully,
R

Your post is based on false premise. The mandate had no borders. It was assigned to Palestine. It worked inside Palestine's borders. When the mandate left Palestine, Palestine was still there within its international borders. This was still true in 1949.

(COMMENT)

You need to read the Treaty carefully.

ARTICLE 94.

The High Contracting Parties agree that Syria and Mesopotamia shall, in accordance with the fourth paragraph of Article 22.

Part I (Covenant of the League of Nations), be provisionally recognised as independent States subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.

A Commission shall be constituted within fifteen days from the coming into force of the present Treaty to trace on the spot the frontier line described in Article 27, II (2) and (3). This Commission will be composed of three members nominated by France, Great Britain and Italy respectively, and one member nominated by Turkey; it will be assisted by a representative of Syria for the Syrian frontier, and by a representative of Mesopotamia for the Mesopotamian frontier.

The determination of the other frontiers of the said States, and the selection of the Mandatories, will be made by the Principal Allied Powers.​

ARTICLE 95.

The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

SOURCE: THE TREATY OF PEACE BETWEEN THE ALLIED AND ASSOCIATED POWERS AND TURKEY SIGNED AT SÈVRES AUGUST 10, 1920

The Treaty was aligned to fit the earlier Sykes-Picot Agreement which was broad scope arrangement. Under the Treaty, there were no boundaries for Palestine. It was a territory defined by the Mandatory. The Treaty said:

2. With Syria:
From a point to be chosen on the eastern bank of the outlet of the Hassan Dede, about 3 kilometres north-west of Karatash Bu- run, north-eastwards to a point to be chosen on the Djaihun Irmak about 1 kilometre north of Babeli, a line to be fixed on the ground passing north of Karatash; thence to Kesik Kale, the course of the Djaihun Irmak upstream;
thence north-eastwards to a point to be chosen on the Djaihun Irmak about 15 kilometres east-southeast of Karsbazar, a line to be fixed on the ground passing north of Kara Tepe;
thence to the bend in the Djaihun Irmak situated west of Duldul Dagh, the course of the Djaihun Irmak upstream;
thence in a general south-easterly direction to a point to be chosen on Emir Musi Dagh about 15 kilometres south-south-west of Giaour Geul a line to be fixed on the ground at a distance of about 18 kilometres from the railway, and leaving Duldul Dagh to Syria;
thence eastwards to a point to be chosen about 5 kilometres north of Urfa a generally straight line from west to east to be hxed on the ground passing north of the roads connecting the towns of Bagh- che, Aintab, Biridjik, and Urfa and leaving the last three named towns to Syria;
thence eastwards to the south-western extremity of the bend in the Tigris about 6 kilometres north of Azekh (27 kilometres west of Djezire-ibn-Omar), a generally straight line from west to east to be fixed on the ground leaving the town of Mardin to Syria;
thence to a point to be chosen on the Tigris between the point of confluence of the Khabur Su with the Tigris and the bend in the Tigris situated about 10 kilometres north of this point,
the course of the Tigris downstream, leaving the island on which is situated the town of Djezire-ibn-Omar to Syria.

3. With Mesopotamia:
Thence in a general easterly direction to a point to be chosen on the northern boundary of the vilayet of Mosul, a line to be fixed on the ground;
thence eastwards to the point where it meets the frontier between Turkey and Persia,
the northern boundary of the vilayet of Mosul, modified, however, so as to pass south of Amadia.

4. On the East and the North East:
From the point above defined to the Black Sea, the existing frontier between Turkey and Persia, then the former frontier between Turkey and Russia, subject to the provisions of Article 89.

5. The Black Sea.

SOURCE: THE TREATY OF PEACE BETWEEN THE ALLIED AND ASSOCIATED POWERS AND TURKEY SIGNED AT SÈVRES AUGUST 10, 1920

The Mandatory defined "Palestine" and not the regional indigenous population.

Most Respectfully,
R

Henceforth, Palestinian nationality was first founded, according to international law, on 6 August 1924. And “treaty nationality in Palestine runs from that date.”139 The Treaty of Lausanne had transformed the de facto status of Palestinian nationality into de jure existence from the angle of international law.140 Meanwhile, the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist.141 Likewise, on 6 August 1924, for the first time ever, international law certified the birth of the ‘Palestinian people’ as distinct from all other peoples.

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, I believe you to be mistaken.

Your post is based on false premise. The mandate had no borders. It was assigned to Palestine. It worked inside Palestine's borders. When the mandate left Palestine, Palestine was still there within its international borders. This was still true in 1949.

(COMMENT)

You need to read the Treaty carefully.



The Treaty was aligned to fit the earlier Sykes-Picot Agreement which was broad scope arrangement. Under the Treaty, there were no boundaries for Palestine. It was a territory defined by the Mandatory. The Treaty said:

2. With Syria:
From a point to be chosen on the eastern bank of the outlet of the Hassan Dede, about 3 kilometres north-west of Karatash Bu- run, north-eastwards to a point to be chosen on the Djaihun Irmak about 1 kilometre north of Babeli, a line to be fixed on the ground passing north of Karatash; thence to Kesik Kale, the course of the Djaihun Irmak upstream;
thence north-eastwards to a point to be chosen on the Djaihun Irmak about 15 kilometres east-southeast of Karsbazar, a line to be fixed on the ground passing north of Kara Tepe;
thence to the bend in the Djaihun Irmak situated west of Duldul Dagh, the course of the Djaihun Irmak upstream;
thence in a general south-easterly direction to a point to be chosen on Emir Musi Dagh about 15 kilometres south-south-west of Giaour Geul a line to be fixed on the ground at a distance of about 18 kilometres from the railway, and leaving Duldul Dagh to Syria;
thence eastwards to a point to be chosen about 5 kilometres north of Urfa a generally straight line from west to east to be hxed on the ground passing north of the roads connecting the towns of Bagh- che, Aintab, Biridjik, and Urfa and leaving the last three named towns to Syria;
thence eastwards to the south-western extremity of the bend in the Tigris about 6 kilometres north of Azekh (27 kilometres west of Djezire-ibn-Omar), a generally straight line from west to east to be fixed on the ground leaving the town of Mardin to Syria;
thence to a point to be chosen on the Tigris between the point of confluence of the Khabur Su with the Tigris and the bend in the Tigris situated about 10 kilometres north of this point,
the course of the Tigris downstream, leaving the island on which is situated the town of Djezire-ibn-Omar to Syria.

3. With Mesopotamia:
Thence in a general easterly direction to a point to be chosen on the northern boundary of the vilayet of Mosul, a line to be fixed on the ground;
thence eastwards to the point where it meets the frontier between Turkey and Persia,
the northern boundary of the vilayet of Mosul, modified, however, so as to pass south of Amadia.

4. On the East and the North East:
From the point above defined to the Black Sea, the existing frontier between Turkey and Persia, then the former frontier between Turkey and Russia, subject to the provisions of Article 89.

5. The Black Sea.

SOURCE: THE TREATY OF PEACE BETWEEN THE ALLIED AND ASSOCIATED POWERS AND TURKEY SIGNED AT SÈVRES AUGUST 10, 1920

The Mandatory defined "Palestine" and not the regional indigenous population.

Most Respectfully,
R

Henceforth, Palestinian nationality was first founded, according to international law, on 6 August 1924. And “treaty nationality in Palestine runs from that date.”139 The Treaty of Lausanne had transformed the de facto status of Palestinian nationality into de jure existence from the angle of international law.140 Meanwhile, the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist.141 Likewise, on 6 August 1924, for the first time ever, international law certified the birth of the ‘Palestinian people’ as distinct from all other peoples.

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

You didn't address what Tinmore said

 

[toastman]

This treaty did not create that law, it merely reiterated existing international norms. There is virtual unanimous recognition of that law worldwide.



You have that backwards. Israel was declared inside Palestine's international borders. Israel never acquired any land for its declared state.

Palestine declared independence inside its own borders. They did not encroach on any other state.

Again, for the 1000th times, acquiring land is a real estate matter. Israel legally declared independence in 1948, recognized by the U.N and many countries, including the U.S.

Your 'Israel never acquired land from Palestine' argument is, as you always say, based on false premise.

Didn't the US acquire land from Mexico?

I don't really understand why you would ask that.

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, I believe you to be mistaken.

Your post is based on false premise. The mandate had no borders. It was assigned to Palestine. It worked inside Palestine's borders. When the mandate left Palestine, Palestine was still there within its international borders. This was still true in 1949.

(COMMENT)

You need to read the Treaty carefully.



The Treaty was aligned to fit the earlier Sykes-Picot Agreement which was broad scope arrangement. Under the Treaty, there were no boundaries for Palestine. It was a territory defined by the Mandatory. The Treaty said:

2. With Syria:
From a point to be chosen on the eastern bank of the outlet of the Hassan Dede, about 3 kilometres north-west of Karatash Bu- run, north-eastwards to a point to be chosen on the Djaihun Irmak about 1 kilometre north of Babeli, a line to be fixed on the ground passing north of Karatash; thence to Kesik Kale, the course of the Djaihun Irmak upstream;
thence north-eastwards to a point to be chosen on the Djaihun Irmak about 15 kilometres east-southeast of Karsbazar, a line to be fixed on the ground passing north of Kara Tepe;
thence to the bend in the Djaihun Irmak situated west of Duldul Dagh, the course of the Djaihun Irmak upstream;
thence in a general south-easterly direction to a point to be chosen on Emir Musi Dagh about 15 kilometres south-south-west of Giaour Geul a line to be fixed on the ground at a distance of about 18 kilometres from the railway, and leaving Duldul Dagh to Syria;
thence eastwards to a point to be chosen about 5 kilometres north of Urfa a generally straight line from west to east to be hxed on the ground passing north of the roads connecting the towns of Bagh- che, Aintab, Biridjik, and Urfa and leaving the last three named towns to Syria;
thence eastwards to the south-western extremity of the bend in the Tigris about 6 kilometres north of Azekh (27 kilometres west of Djezire-ibn-Omar), a generally straight line from west to east to be fixed on the ground leaving the town of Mardin to Syria;
thence to a point to be chosen on the Tigris between the point of confluence of the Khabur Su with the Tigris and the bend in the Tigris situated about 10 kilometres north of this point,
the course of the Tigris downstream, leaving the island on which is situated the town of Djezire-ibn-Omar to Syria.

3. With Mesopotamia:
Thence in a general easterly direction to a point to be chosen on the northern boundary of the vilayet of Mosul, a line to be fixed on the ground;
thence eastwards to the point where it meets the frontier between Turkey and Persia,
the northern boundary of the vilayet of Mosul, modified, however, so as to pass south of Amadia.

4. On the East and the North East:
From the point above defined to the Black Sea, the existing frontier between Turkey and Persia, then the former frontier between Turkey and Russia, subject to the provisions of Article 89.

5. The Black Sea.

SOURCE: THE TREATY OF PEACE BETWEEN THE ALLIED AND ASSOCIATED POWERS AND TURKEY SIGNED AT SÈVRES AUGUST 10, 1920

The Mandatory defined "Palestine" and not the regional indigenous population.

Most Respectfully,
R

Henceforth, Palestinian nationality was first founded, according to international law, on 6 August 1924. And “treaty nationality in Palestine runs from that date.”139 The Treaty of Lausanne had transformed the de facto status of Palestinian nationality into de jure existence from the angle of international law.140 Meanwhile, the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist.141 Likewise, on 6 August 1924, for the first time ever, international law certified the birth of the ‘Palestinian people’ as distinct from all other peoples.

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

It's a pipe dream, Tinmore. A wisp of smoke. Face it like a man and live with it. It'll never come back no matter you say or think. I feel for you. That's the truth.