I will not Bow!

[toastman]

OK, but the mandate was not to, and did not, create a Jewish state.

Tinmore, we've heard all your feeble rejoinders at least a thousand times. Every argument you have ever had has been highlighted with sound, reasonable explanation and solid proof. How about leaving the 19th and 20th centuries, face the fact that the old edicts and proclamations are now historical fiction. Get it in gear.

It is the 21st century and Palestinian rights are still being violated.

Stop deflecting. Why do you find it so hard to admit you are wrong in certain cases??

 

[P F Tinmore]

I've asked you that question concerning the 1948 war and the events prior and following it. I still havent gotten a link

You want to know where I got my information?

UN documents
International law, treaties
Avalon Project, Yale
Palestine Encyclopedia
Israel, MFA
Wikipedia
1948.org.uk
Jewish Virtual Library
Palestine Remembered
Bennie Morris
Ilan Pappe
Etc.

Is this what you wanted?

I simply asked for a link. All I'm getting is song and dance. You rarely back up your claims, and even when you do, you bring up a link that doesn't even come close to proving your statement

Then I don't know what you want.

Could you ask a specific question?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Tinmore, we've heard all your feeble rejoinders at least a thousand times. Every argument you have ever had has been highlighted with sound, reasonable explanation and solid proof. How about leaving the 19th and 20th centuries, face the fact that the old edicts and proclamations are now historical fiction. Get it in gear.

It is the 21st century and Palestinian rights are still being violated.

Stop deflecting. Why do you find it so hard to admit you are wrong in certain cases??

Name one.

 

[toastman]

It is the 21st century and Palestinian rights are still being violated.

Stop deflecting. Why do you find it so hard to admit you are wrong in certain cases??

Name one.

Lets start off with your "Israel has no borders" claim LOL !

Then there's what Rocco just responded to you

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh, for heaven's sake!


(COMMENT)

1) In 1924, the international borders in the region were, whatever the Allied Powers decided they would be.

Going chronologically:

• Egypt: Independence - 28 February 1922 (from UK protectorate status; the revolution that began on 23 July 1952 led to a republic being declared on 18 June 1953 and all British troops withdrawn on 18 June 1956)
• Lebanon: Independence - 22 November 1943 (from League of Nations mandate under French administration)
• Syria: Independence - 17 April 1946 (from League of Nations mandate under French administration)
• Jordan: Independence - 25 May 1946 (from League of Nations mandate under British administration)
• Israel: Independence - Midnight-14/15 May 1948 (from League of Nations mandate under British administration)

2) In 1924, Nationality and Citizenship of both the indigenous and immigrant populations were covered in Articles 4, 7 and 8 of the Mandate. Palestine was a Class "A" Mandate Territory under international law, under the authority of the treaty and League of Nations.

3) The mission of the Mandatory was to develop the capacity in the population (indigenous and immigrant) to govern themselves, and in establishing their economic systems and social and other institutions on a more secure footing in order to fit them to take their position as independent nations; - and - apply the policy defined by the "Balfour Declaration" of November 2nd, 1917.

4) In a Class "A" Mandate, an "external interference" would be anything influence injected into the administration of the territory other than that of the Mandatory having full administrative and legislative powers.

5) In 1924, The "right of self-determination" was whatever the Mandatory and League of Nations said the right was. "The universal realization of the right of peoples to self determination enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations and embodied in the International Covenants on Human Rights, as well as in the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples contained in General Assembly resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960, (A/RES/49/148 94th plenary meeting 23 December 1994).

6) Yes, the "external interference" of the Arab League to the Jewish right to self-determination is illegal. It was, by their own admission, acts of foreign military
intervention, aggression and occupation, to interfere with the Implementation by the Security Council (actioned by the UNPC) of the final steps to independence of the Jewish People, and the suppression of their right to self-determination as afforded to them through resolution by the General Assembly.

Most Respectfully,
R

You are grasping at straws.

What does all that have to do with my post? If you have an issue with anything I said, pull it out and prove it wrong.

HUH??? He just addressed every point in your post! And he backed it up with links. Where are your links from that post ????

Grasping at straws, blowing smoke, etc... These are the things you say when your argument has been dismantled.

OK. let's start at the top.

Palestine's borders were defined by international, post war treaties.

Where was that addressed in Rocco's post?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Stop deflecting. Why do you find it so hard to admit you are wrong in certain cases??

Name one.

Lets start off with your "Israel has no borders" claim LOL !

Then there's what Rocco just responded to you

Oh G-d, I don't want to hear that borders claim for the thousandth time. Do you Toastman?

 

[toastman]

Name one.

Lets start off with your "Israel has no borders" claim LOL !

Then there's what Rocco just responded to you

Oh G-d, I don't want to hear that borders claim for the thousandth time. Do you Toastman?

Doesn't matter, it's a lie and I've proved it to him many times with a credible link

 

[toastman]

You are grasping at straws.

What does all that have to do with my post? If you have an issue with anything I said, pull it out and prove it wrong.

HUH??? He just addressed every point in your post! And he backed it up with links. Where are your links from that post ????

Grasping at straws, blowing smoke, etc... These are the things you say when your argument has been dismantled.

OK. let's start at the top.

Palestine's borders were defined by international, post war treaties.

Where was that addressed in Rocco's post?

He's addressed that point many many times, you just choose to ignore it.

Read his last post again, the one you claimed where he was grasping at straws

 

[P F Tinmore]

Stop deflecting. Why do you find it so hard to admit you are wrong in certain cases??

Name one.

Lets start off with your "Israel has no borders" claim LOL !

Then there's what Rocco just responded to you

We don't have the background established to prove that Israel does have borders.

Israel claims that it got Palestine's borders from Egypt and Jordan. I think there is a problem with legitimacy.

 

[P F Tinmore]

HUH??? He just addressed every point in your post! And he backed it up with links. Where are your links from that post ????

Grasping at straws, blowing smoke, etc... These are the things you say when your argument has been dismantled.

OK. let's start at the top.

Palestine's borders were defined by international, post war treaties.

Where was that addressed in Rocco's post?

He's addressed that point many many times, you just choose to ignore it.

Read his last post again, the one you claimed where he was grasping at straws

But you cannot tell me what part addressed this question. I asked where, not if it was. You did not answer my question.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes.

OK, but the mandate was not to, and did not, create a Jewish state.

(COMMENT)

I did not say that the Mandate created a Jewish State. What I tried to convey in truncated form is:

The Palestine Mandate is of a very special character. While it follows the main lines laid down by the Covenant for "A" Mandates, it also contains a number of provisions designed to apply the policy defined by the "Balfour Declaration" of November 2nd, 1917. By this declaration, the British Government had announced its intention to encourage the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. The Mandate reproduces the Balfour Declaration almost in full in its preamble and states that "recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country".

SOURCE: Series of League of Nations Publications VI.A. MANDATES 1945. VI.A. 1

I think we all know that the idea of a "Jewish State" was formally recommended by the UN Special Committee on Palestine "majority proposal" (Partition), which formed the basis for A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947. Within Part II (Boundaries), Section "B" (The Jewish State) of the Resolution 181 (II) - Future government of Palestine - makes it an explicit UN recommendation; and publically announced as implemented (05/17/1948 PAL/169 Palestine question - Palestine Commission adjourns sine die - Press release).

It is the 21st century and Palestinian rights are still being violated.

(COMMENT)

For the last 60 years, the State of Israel has implemented various security countermeasures to the implicit threats and demonstrated past record of criminal behaviors and acts of terrorism made by the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) constituency and endorsed and supported by the Arab League.

The countermeasures taken are not intended to deny the HoAP any human rights or self-determination; --- but to protect the State of Israel from the HoAP Jihadist and Fedayeen from organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities, paramilitary activities, and conventional warfare operations intended to be committed against Israel and other States or their citizens.

Criminals (HoAP) that are quarantined and contained are under such control to protect the rights and liberty of those (Israel and others) the criminal threatens.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Phoenall]

No they were not as Palestine could not have any borders, what you are falling foul of is the borders of other countries set in stone are not the same thing as the borders of the area they surround.

Could you prove that statement like a link or something?

I already have done but you chose to ignore the borders mutually agreed with Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon and claimed that they showed the borders of Palestine. Who negotiated the borders for Palestine when there was no legal representation of any nation of Palestine, who did Egypt Jordan Syria and Israel negotiate the borders with ?

See un res 242 for the explanation as to why Palestine could not have any borders

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes.

OK, but the mandate was not to, and did not, create a Jewish state.

(COMMENT)

I did not say that the Mandate created a Jewish State. What I tried to convey in truncated form is:

The Palestine Mandate is of a very special character. While it follows the main lines laid down by the Covenant for "A" Mandates, it also contains a number of provisions designed to apply the policy defined by the "Balfour Declaration" of November 2nd, 1917. By this declaration, the British Government had announced its intention to encourage the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. The Mandate reproduces the Balfour Declaration almost in full in its preamble and states that "recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country".

SOURCE: Series of League of Nations Publications VI.A. MANDATES 1945. VI.A. 1

I think we all know that the idea of a "Jewish State" was formally recommended by the UN Special Committee on Palestine "majority proposal" (Partition), which formed the basis for A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947. Within Part II (Boundaries), Section "B" (The Jewish State) of the Resolution 181 (II) - Future government of Palestine - makes it an explicit UN recommendation; and publically announced as implemented (05/17/1948 PAL/169 Palestine question - Palestine Commission adjourns sine die - Press release).

It is the 21st century and Palestinian rights are still being violated.

(COMMENT)

For the last 60 years, the State of Israel has implemented various security countermeasures to the implicit threats and demonstrated past record of criminal behaviors and acts of terrorism made by the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) constituency and endorsed and supported by the Arab League.

The countermeasures taken are not intended to deny the HoAP any human rights or self-determination; --- but to protect the State of Israel from the HoAP Jihadist and Fedayeen from organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities, paramilitary activities, and conventional warfare operations intended to be committed against Israel and other States or their citizens.

Criminals that are quarantined and contained are under such control to protect the rights and liberty of those the criminal threatens.

Most Respectfully,
R

I did not say that the Mandate created a Jewish State. What I tried to convey in truncated form is:

Then why all the smoke about the mandate when it did not create Israel?

And why all the smoke about the UN when it did not create Israel either.

I made 6 points and I can't find where you addressed/refuted any of them.

 

[P F Tinmore]

No they were not as Palestine could not have any borders, what you are falling foul of is the borders of other countries set in stone are not the same thing as the borders of the area they surround.

Could you prove that statement like a link or something?

I already have done but you chose to ignore the borders mutually agreed with Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon and claimed that they showed the borders of Palestine. Who negotiated the borders for Palestine when there was no legal representation of any nation of Palestine, who did Egypt Jordan Syria and Israel negotiate the borders with ?

See un res 242 for the explanation as to why Palestine could not have any borders

Israel claims Palestine's borders without negotiating with the Palestinians.

Quote the passage of resolution 242 that confirms your claim.

 

[RoccoR]

PF Tinemore, et al,

There was no Palestine (State of) until December 1988.

Palestine's borders were defined by international, post war treaties.

Where was that addressed in Rocco's post?

(COMMENT)

I provided the international boundaries pertaining to the Mandates, as each country achieved independence and sovereignty. There was no such State of Palestine, and I cannot provide you the proof of something that does not exist.

The State of Palestine was created (November 1988).

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

PF Tinemore, et al,

There was no Palestine (State of) until December 1988.

Palestine's borders were defined by international, post war treaties.

Where was that addressed in Rocco's post?

(COMMENT)

I provided the international boundaries pertaining to the Mandates, as each country achieved independence and sovereignty. There was no such State of Palestine, and I cannot provide you the proof of something that does not exist.

The State of Palestine was created (November 1988).

Most Respectfully,
R

But I have already posted maps and documents showing Palestine's international borders.

You can't refute that with merely say so or a lot of smoke.

 

[Phoenall]

How could they when there was no nation of Palestine, and the nations that took over were Britain and France. Even the passports for the residents of the British mandate for Palestine said they were British subjects.

Henceforth, Palestinian nationality was first founded, according to international law, on 6 August 1924. And “treaty nationality in Palestine runs from that date.”139 The Treaty of Lausanne had transformed the de facto status of Palestinian nationality into de jure existence from the angle of international law.140 Meanwhile, the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist.141 Likewise, on 6 August 1924, for the first time ever, international law certified the birth of the ‘Palestinian people’ as distinct from all other peoples.

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

Post something that proves otherwise.

From your link.


During this period Palestine was first placed under military rule and then under civil administration. From 9 December 1917 (when the province of Jerusalem was occupied by the British army as part of World War I in which Britain and Turkey were enemies) until the adoption of the Palestine Mandate on 24 July 1922 by the Council of the League of Nations, the international legal status of the country remained undetermined. As a result, the nationality of Palestine inhabitants, like that of the inhabitants of other ex-Ottoman territories at the time, remained similarly undetermined


Britain’s occupation did not alter, in law, the international status of Palestine as an occupied Turkish territory. The allied powers meanwhile gathered in San Remo, Italy, to discuss a deal with Turkey and determine the future of Palestine (then including Trans-Jordan), along with Iraq and Syria (then including Lebanon).


As the unilaterally declared mandate had no international legal effect, Palestine remained, at least nominally, an Ottoman territory. Britain itself accepted this international legal position


In addition to being Ottoman citizens on the basis of the international law of state succession, Palestine’s inhabitants continued at the same time to be Ottomans in accordance with the 1869 Ottoman Nationality Law. The ongoing validity of the 1869 Law was part of the general application of Ottoman laws in Palestine.

Such validity of Ottoman nationality at the time can be explained by the general rule in international law that occupation or conquest does not provide title to the occupying power over the occupied territory.


Although the inhabitants of Palestine remained Ottoman citizens according to international law, in practice they started to be gradually regarded as Palestinians ( take note this was not a legally binding change of nationality )

As occupying power, Britain had become responsible for the international relations of Palestine and for protecting its inhabitants abroad.44 Britain, as such, found itself compelled to take certain measures to regulate the inhabitants’ nationality. To this end, the government of Palestine, which was the authority established by Britain to administrate the country, issued provisional nationality certificates to Ottoman residents in Palestine; granted Palestinian passports and travel documents; extended diplomatic protection to those inhabitants residing and travelling abroad; and made a clear distinction between citizens and foreigners regarding the admission into Palestine as well as political and residence rights. ‘Palestinian’ and ‘Palestinian citizen’ terms were routinely employed.45


Shortly after replacing the military order by a civil administration, a preliminary system of Palestinian passports and travel documents was set up in August 1920 by the Palestine Passport Regulations
In order, apparently, to be applicable to all residents of the country (natives, migrants, stateless persons, refugees) the Passport Regulations employed the term ‘inhabitant of Palestine’ rather than ‘Palestinian citizen


Palestinian nationality existed despite the lack of comprehensive legislative regulation..

So no legally recognised Palestinian nationality, just a British one that granted protected Palestinians the same consular rights as say Indians and Jamaicans

 

[Phoenall]

Tinmore, we've heard all your feeble rejoinders at least a thousand times. Every argument you have ever had has been highlighted with sound, reasonable explanation and solid proof. How about leaving the 19th and 20th centuries, face the fact that the old edicts and proclamations are now historical fiction. Get it in gear.

Yes, let's talk about what's happening in the here and now. For instance, last week Britain, France, Italy, and Spain recalled their Israeli ambassadors to protest the settlements on the West Bank. Was this action justified? Netanyahu was furious and called the Europeans hypocrites. I agree with that.

It is a good start. The settlements are illegal. People should be in jail.

Ten years ago they would be too afraid to say anything. It is good to see that the world is changing.

Since when has it been illegal for a Jew to build on land that he/she owns and hold title to. This is where you constantly fall flat on your face, as you decide that the laws on land ownership and right of return do not apply to the Jews. This is anti semitic Jew hatred of the worst kind. So if anyone should go to jail it is you and the rest of the NAZIS

 

[RoccoR]

PF Tinmore, et al,

What are you talking about?

PF Tinemore, et al,

There was no Palestine (State of) until December 1988.

Where was that addressed in Rocco's post?

(COMMENT)

I provided the international boundaries pertaining to the Mandates, as each country achieved independence and sovereignty. There was no such State of Palestine, and I cannot provide you the proof of something that does not exist.

The State of Palestine was created (November 1988).

Most Respectfully,
R

But I have already posted maps and documents showing Palestine's international borders.

You can't refute that with merely say so or a lot of smoke.

(COMMENT)

I have never posted any information on a pre-1988 State of Palestine; let alone a map.

I may have posted regional maps and mandate maps, but no State Map.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Phoenall]

It is the 21st century and Palestinian rights are still being violated.

Stop deflecting. Why do you find it so hard to admit you are wrong in certain cases??

Name one.

Palestinian legally recognised nationallity