I will not Bow!

[montelatici]

Monte - you and Tinnny and the rest may want to re-think that gleeful anticipation already. According to your ilk 'the Jews' (at less than 2% of population) are running the US and half of the Western world - so 'demographics' won't change matters much.

Unless, of course, you assert that the "Palestinians' have the right to legislate their citizenship out from under the Jews the way the Arab League nations across the ME/NA have already done?

In which case it becomes obvious that you - and they - are not on the side of 'peace, justice, and freedom' after all.

But I think most of us already realized that: it's clear enough from the PA/PLO and HAMAS Charters anyway.

I said it is unfortunate, because Israel is basically an advanced European state in the Middle East that could survive for the long term within a disadvantageous demographic environment with only some compromise. With compromise, the Jews even if a minority within a multi-confessional secular democratic state, could maintain their culture as well or probably better than the Boers in South Africa, which also faced a demographic challenge of equal or worse proportions. My point is that the Jews are at the peak of their negotiating power, it's not going to get any stronger, so they should get the best deal they can get now.

 

[toastman]

Monte - you and Tinnny and the rest may want to re-think that gleeful anticipation already. According to your ilk 'the Jews' (at less than 2% of population) are running the US and half of the Western world - so 'demographics' won't change matters much.

Unless, of course, you assert that the "Palestinians' have the right to legislate their citizenship out from under the Jews the way the Arab League nations across the ME/NA have already done?

In which case it becomes obvious that you - and they - are not on the side of 'peace, justice, and freedom' after all.

But I think most of us already realized that: it's clear enough from the PA/PLO and HAMAS Charters anyway.

I said it is unfortunate, because Israel is basically an advanced European state in the Middle East that could survive for the long term within a disadvantageous demographic environment with only some compromise. With compromise, the Jews even if a minority within a multi-confessional secular democratic state, could maintain their culture as well or probably better than the Boers in South Africa, which also faced a demographic challenge of equal or worse proportions. My point is that the Jews are at the peak of their negotiating power, it's not going to get any stronger, so they should get the best deal they can get now.

European state??

 

[montelatici]

Monte - you and Tinnny and the rest may want to re-think that gleeful anticipation already. According to your ilk 'the Jews' (at less than 2% of population) are running the US and half of the Western world - so 'demographics' won't change matters much.

Unless, of course, you assert that the "Palestinians' have the right to legislate their citizenship out from under the Jews the way the Arab League nations across the ME/NA have already done?

In which case it becomes obvious that you - and they - are not on the side of 'peace, justice, and freedom' after all.

But I think most of us already realized that: it's clear enough from the PA/PLO and HAMAS Charters anyway.

I said it is unfortunate, because Israel is basically an advanced European state in the Middle East that could survive for the long term within a disadvantageous demographic environment with only some compromise. With compromise, the Jews even if a minority within a multi-confessional secular democratic state, could maintain their culture as well or probably better than the Boers in South Africa, which also faced a demographic challenge of equal or worse proportions. My point is that the Jews are at the peak of their negotiating power, it's not going to get any stronger, so they should get the best deal they can get now.

European state??

Settled by Europeans, it has a society that is quite similar in standard of living and overall life to European societies and it is a member of many European-only organizations:

UEFA (European Football Federation) Israel plays in European national team competitions.

Center of European Nuclear Research (CERN), etc.

 

[Kondor3]

Look at the legend. The international boundaries are marked +-+-+-+-. The proposed, but never implemented, borders are solid lines.

The Palestinian Civil War (the Israeli-Arab Wars of 1947-1949) resulted in a permanent division of the unincorporated territory formerly known as Palestine into a Jewish-controlled nation-state and an unincorporated Muslim-Arab territory.

Wars change maps, and set aside old understandings and legal standings and political configurations.

It's the way the Real World works.

Get used to it.

Unfortunately for Israel, in the real world demographics also change maps.

You (pro-Palestinian advocates) seem to be operating under the impression that Israel will do nothing while this so-called Demographics Threat unfolds.

There is no threat from within the present borders of Israel, if one omits the West Bank and Gaza from that definition.

If Israel decides to complete its Reconquista and annexes the West Bank and/or Gaza in perpetuity, it will forcibly evict and expel the Palestinians and then move Israelis into the vacuum to consolidate those new holdings.

Thereby removing the Demographics Threat before it ever materializes.

Encroachment upon the Rump (vestigial, remnant) West Bank continues apace and appears to be accelerating.

Nobody is going to stop Israel if it does choose to go the Expulsion route; or, should I say, should they openly declare the obvious.

 

[montelatici]

The Palestinian Civil War (the Israeli-Arab Wars of 1947-1949) resulted in a permanent division of the unincorporated territory formerly known as Palestine into a Jewish-controlled nation-state and an unincorporated Muslim-Arab territory.

Wars change maps, and set aside old understandings and legal standings and political configurations.

It's the way the Real World works.

Get used to it.

Unfortunately for Israel, in the real world demographics also change maps.

You (pro-Palestinian advocates) seem to be operating under the impression that Israel will do nothing while this so-called Demographics Threat unfolds.

There is no threat from within the present borders of Israel, if one omits the West Bank and Gaza from that definition.

If Israel decides to complete its Reconquista and annexes the West Bank and/or Gaza in perpetuity, it will forcibly evict and expel the Palestinians and then move Israelis into the vacuum to consolidate those new holdings.

Thereby removing the Demographics Threat before it ever materializes.

Encroachment upon the Rump (vestigial, remnant) West Bank continues apace and appears to be accelerating.

Nobody is going to stop Israel if it does choose to go the Expulsion route; or, should I say, should they openly declare the obvious.

How do you figure Israel will be able to expel/kill 5-6 million people logistically? And, do you think the U.S. would stand by and allow what is perceived its client state by the rest of the world to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing? If the US allowed it to happen, there would be serious negative economic consequences for America. Ever take a look to see how much the U.S. sells to the Muslim world. The UN would impose South Africa style sanctions that the U.S. would not veto. The EU, Israel's biggest trading partner would impose even stricter sanctions. I don't think you have thought this through.

 

[P F Tinmore]

'And the land that those borders define is Palestine'

Sorry, I had to come back to this comment.

This is easily one of the most ridiculous things you said. Those are ISRAELS borders that were agreed upon with ISRAEL & EGYPT and ISRAEL & JORDAN. NOTHING to do with Palestine. Again, the land within those borders is Israels, hence the name Israel on the map. Pretty simple, no?

With a view to promoting the return of permanent peace in Palestine...

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by...

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949

2. This withdrawal shall begin on the day after that which follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja (the main road that enters Palestine from Egypt to Beersheba) shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

After the end of the mandate, after resolution 181, after Israel's declaration of independence, and after the 1948 war, Israel signed two separate agreements stating that the Negev was still Palestine.

Nobody has ever documented when that territory became Israel.

 

[toastman]

Tinmore, again for the 100th time: The Armistice agreements were signed BEFORE the agreements with Jordan and Egypt!

Goodness gracious Tinmore!!!

Not to mention, you still did 't prove what you claimed earlier.

 

[toastman]

And no , Israel did not sign agreements saying the Negev is Palestine.

What's the matter with you????? You must be paid to spread this distortion of history..

 

[toastman]

'No one has ever documented when that territory became Israel'

It became Israels after they legally declared independence on that land.

The whole 'document when it became Israels land' is something YOU MADE UP.
Israel did not need to follow the Tinmore pre requisites to become a state.

Stop making up these bullshit claims to further your agenda

 

[P F Tinmore]

Tinmore, again for the 100th time: The Armistice agreements were signed BEFORE the agreements with Jordan and Egypt!

Goodness gracious Tinmore!!!

Not to mention, you still did 't prove what you claimed earlier.

Indeed they were. Now Israel is claiming borders on land that it agreed was Palestine.

BTW, which previous claim are you questioning?

 

[toastman]

Tinmore, again for the 100th time: The Armistice agreements were signed BEFORE the agreements with Jordan and Egypt!

Goodness gracious Tinmore!!!

Not to mention, you still did 't prove what you claimed earlier.

Indeed they were. Now Israel is claiming borders on land that it agreed was Palestine.

BTW, which previous claim are you questioning?

Again, it's not Israel claiming those borders! The U.N is the one that wrote the treaty!
And It's Israels land, not Palestines! Israel never signed an agreement saying it was Palestines. You made that up as well.

Would you like to see the treaties once again that CLEARLY define Israels internationally recognized boundaries with Egypt and Jordan??
How bout a map??

Israel Map - Israel Satellite Image - Physical - Political

 

[P F Tinmore]

'No one has ever documented when that territory became Israel'

It became Israels after they legally declared independence on that land.

The whole 'document when it became Israels land' is something YOU MADE UP.
Israel did not need to follow the Tinmore pre requisites to become a state.

Stop making up these bullshit claims to further your agenda

1) Israel's declaration of independence did not claim any land or borders.

2) The armistice agreements were signed after Israel's declaration.

 

[toastman]

Israel declared independence on the land allotted to it in the partition plan. We've been through this many times Tinmore.

The Armistice agreements, which you CONSTANTLY bring up, have nothing to do with what you're talking about.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel declared independence on the land allotted to it in the partition plan. We've been through this many times Tinmore.

The Armistice agreements, which you CONSTANTLY bring up, have nothing to do with what you're talking about.

Israel never claimed the land or recognized the proposed borders of resolution 181.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, montelatici, et al,

Certainly NOT!


(COMMENT)

The Arab Palestinian can be given all the rights and the tools, laws, and guidance that go with them. But if they don't have the were with all to fit it all together, then it is like they have nothing at all.

I can give to a telescope, and with it --- the capability to see Saturn and its rings. I can give you the coordinates (for a given date and time). But if you don't have the knowledge, skills and abilities (KSAs) to set it up, and align it in the right direction, having the telescope (the capability) means nothing; you are still not going to make visual acquisition.​

Just saying the words, means nothing. The reality is, you have to have the KSAs, to combine with the motivation and initiative to make it come together.

The Arab Palestinian had all the capability (and more) it needed to make another Peaceful, prosperous, and productive Arab State. But, not having the KSAs, they threw it all away; as if they never had it at all. They chose a different path, something the Arab Palestinian understood, --- they chose "conflict."


(COMMENT)

So, you are saying that no nation in the world, under occupation, can become prosperous and peaceful nation. That occupation is an impediment to a successful outcome.

That is foolish. Just in the last century, both Japan and Germany were occupied by the Allied Powers. And both are among the most peaceful and prosperous nations on Earth; largely due to their own work and fortitude.

Most Respectfully,
R

You are still dancing.

Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter,

Recalling its relevant resolutions which affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,

1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine, including:

(a) The right to self-determination without external interference;

(b) The right to national independence and sovereignty;

The wording suggests that the Palestinians already had these rights before 1974.

At what point in time and under what circumstances did the Palestinians gain these rights?

Look, the tin hyprocrite is arguing about a meaningless piece of paper again! WOW! WHAT A ******* SURPRISE!!!

At what point in time do you concede defeat to the superior Israelis?

That is unfair the ISLAMONAZI's cant think as we do their education is along the lines of muslim good everyone else must die. He does not understand being given the rights and employing them are two totally opposite constructs. They could have been given the rights as far back as 627 C.E. when Mohamed invented islam, that is not the issue. What is the issue is their ability to use those rights in a meaningful manner.

 

[toastman]

Nothing you are telling me means anything Tinmore.
You're just making up shit that has zero merit in this conversation.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, I've seen this many times before...

Perhaps this will help.

(COMMENT)

This was totally ignored.

It is a case of the All Palestine Government trying to mimic the Notification of Independence that the Jewish Agency send 5 month earlier in accordance with the Steps Preparatory to Independence.

So no, this doesn't count at all.

Most Respectfully,
R

The declaratory theory claims that a State will be formed free from the consents of the other States, just after she meet the international requirements. This approach is laid down in the first sentence of Article 3 of the Montevideo Convention (1933), "The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states."

http://www.justice.gov.tr/e-journal/pdf/LW7081.pdf

As you constantly claim a state can not declare on an existing states land. So because Israel got in first and declared on the partition borders the arab muslims could not come along later and say this land is ours get off.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Rocco,

Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter,

Recalling its relevant resolutions which affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,

1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine, including:

(a) The right to self-determination without external interference;

(b) The right to national independence and sovereignty;

The wording suggests that the Palestinians already had these rights before 1974.

At what point in time and under what circumstances did the Palestinians gain these rights?

Well, Rocco, It really looks like you intend to duck this question.

 

[Phoenall]

Look at the legend. The international boundaries are marked +-+-+-+-. The proposed, but never implemented, borders are solid lines.

Read the title of the map, the entire map itself is proposed. And nowhere does it say that the solid lines are proposed borders.

And the +- cannot be Palestines borders because they run along the lines where Israels int'l borders are with Egypt and Jordan.
How can Egypt and Jordan have one border with two countries??

Not so. It is a 1946 map of Palestine with proposed borders drawn on top.

Good question since Palestine had those borders since the '20s. And the land that those borders define is Palestine.

Wrong again as the borders of Palestine included what is now Jordan, Syria and Lebanon as seen here.

Note the legend that states the area in white was to be the new National Home of the JEWS

 

[Phoenall]

Look at the legend. The international boundaries are marked +-+-+-+-. The proposed, but never implemented, borders are solid lines.

The Palestinian Civil War (the Israeli-Arab Wars of 1947-1949) resulted in a permanent division of the unincorporated territory formerly known as Palestine into a Jewish-controlled nation-state and an unincorporated Muslim-Arab territory.

Wars change maps, and set aside old understandings and legal standings and political configurations.

It's the way the Real World works.

Get used to it.

Unfortunately for Israel, in the real world demographics also change maps.

Only if the population has the weapons with which to fight. In the case of hamas and fatah they have had their fangs pulled and are not a danger. And the way the muslims are going those self same demographics will bring about the collapse of their empires due to starvation and thirst.