I will not Bow!

[Hossfly]

That map's international boundaries are clear. Those same borders are referenced in the 1949 armistice agreements. There is no question about Palestine's borders.

Then why cant you post a map of Palestine with the marked borders ))
All you have is a map of proposed borders.
I have a map of Israel with the internationally recognized boundaries.

Look at the legend. The international boundaries are marked +-+-+-+-. The proposed, but never implemented, borders are solid lines.

You're right about that but it was ad hoc.

 

[toastman]

That map's international boundaries are clear. Those same borders are referenced in the 1949 armistice agreements. There is no question about Palestine's borders.

Then why cant you post a map of Palestine with the marked borders ))
All you have is a map of proposed borders.
I have a map of Israel with the internationally recognized boundaries.

Look at the legend. The international boundaries are marked +-+-+-+-. The proposed, but never implemented, borders are solid lines.

Read the title of the map, the entire map itself is proposed. And nowhere does it say that the solid lines are proposed borders.

And the +- cannot be Palestines borders because they run along the lines where Israels int'l borders are with Egypt and Jordan.
How can Egypt and Jordan have one border with two countries??

 

[toastman]

Here is a map of Israel with its internationally recognized borders

Israel Map - Israel Satellite Image - Physical - Political

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, I've seen this many times before...

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, but even the THE COMMITTEE ON THE EXERCISE OF THE INALIENABLE RIGHTS OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE AND THE DIVISION FOR PALESTINIAN RIGHTS cannot point to a first affirmation.


(COMMENT)

While I think it goes back to the arguments presented by the Emir and the Grand Mufti, Resolution 3236 (XXIX) points to no previous reference.

Second, there may be a case to argue concerning the previous existence of inalienable rights of the Palestinian people, but --- that doesn't mean that the Arab Palestinian actually had a realization of those rights. You will notice that the 2013 General Assembly Resolution makes the reference: "Having considered the report of the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People." That report to the General Assembly says in part:



This, in effect, makes the same argument I made in a previous posting. Without the KSAs to implement the rights, the rights are invisible. The Arab Palestinian never actualized a right to anything. They just used it as justification for the continuation of Jihadist and Fedayeen activities directed against Israel and its allies.

I agree that, as far as documentation goes, A/RES/3236 (XXIX) 22 November 1974 is a capstone reference. Having said that, it is no substitute for tangible evidence of attempts to actualize those objectives; and that dates back to a time before the Partition Plan. It must also be remembered that the first successful actualization of the right to self-determination was the Palestinian Declaration of Independence (A/43/827 S/20278 18 November 1988).

If you use the A/RES/3236 (XXIX) 22 November 1974 as the benchmark, then you are pointing back to my original answer, that the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people comes from a time influenced by the Emir and the Grand Mufti. However, if, as in modern times, you used the actualization as the benchmark, then your timeline begins (as the Division for Palestinian Rights notes) in 1983 for realization and 1988 for actualization.

You are free to make your own evaluation. But it is relatively clear to me that the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people are, yet once again, in danger of being lost; just as they were from 1948-to-1967 during the forfeiture to the Arab League.

Just My Thought,
R

Perhaps this will help.

I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE...

A/C.1/330 of 14 October 1948

(COMMENT)

This was totally ignored.

It is a case of the All Palestine Government trying to mimic the Notification of Independence that the Jewish Agency send 5 month earlier in accordance with the Steps Preparatory to Independence.

So no, this doesn't count at all.

Most Respectfully,
R

The declaratory theory claims that a State will be formed free from the consents of the other States, just after she meet the international requirements. This approach is laid down in the first sentence of Article 3 of the Montevideo Convention (1933), "The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states."

http://www.justice.gov.tr/e-journal/pdf/LW7081.pdf

 

[P F Tinmore]

Then why cant you post a map of Palestine with the marked borders ))
All you have is a map of proposed borders.
I have a map of Israel with the internationally recognized boundaries.

Look at the legend. The international boundaries are marked +-+-+-+-. The proposed, but never implemented, borders are solid lines.

Read the title of the map, the entire map itself is proposed. And nowhere does it say that the solid lines are proposed borders.

And the +- cannot be Palestines borders because they run along the lines where Israels int'l borders are with Egypt and Jordan.
How can Egypt and Jordan have one border with two countries??

Not so. It is a 1946 map of Palestine with proposed borders drawn on top.

Good question since Palestine had those borders since the '20s. And the land that those borders define is Palestine.

 

[toastman]

Look at the legend. The international boundaries are marked +-+-+-+-. The proposed, but never implemented, borders are solid lines.

Read the title of the map, the entire map itself is proposed. And nowhere does it say that the solid lines are proposed borders.

And the +- cannot be Palestines borders because they run along the lines where Israels int'l borders are with Egypt and Jordan.
How can Egypt and Jordan have one border with two countries??

Not so. It is a 1946 map of Palestine with proposed borders drawn on top.

Good question since Palestine had those borders since the '20s. And the land that those borders define is Palestine.

Do you see Palestine anywhere on that map?? Those borders have nothing to do with Palestine. And if it is true that Palestine had those borders since the 20's, then they are irrelevant since Israels borders were signed way after Palestines (not that a believe those were ever Palestines borders).

And once again, the map you showed me is a PROPOSED PARTITION PLAN with proposed borders:
Why can't you provide a map that just says Palestine and not 'Partition plan'?

Answer: because a map of Palestine with those borders doesn't exist

 

[toastman]

'And the land that those borders define is Palestine'

Sorry, I had to come back to this comment.

This is easily one of the most ridiculous things you said. Those are ISRAELS borders that were agreed upon with ISRAEL & EGYPT and ISRAEL & JORDAN. NOTHING to do with Palestine. Again, the land within those borders is Israels, hence the name Israel on the map. Pretty simple, no?

 

[Phoenall]

It's all well and good to post nonsense from Zionist propaganda sites, but at least don't insult our intelligence by editing the nonsense and then not providing links. You are one of the biggest bullshitters I have seen posting.

Now let's check out the text from source materials and not bullshit:

AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF

PALESTINE,

during the period
1st JULY, 1920--30th JUNE, 1921.


AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF
PALESTINE.

I.--THE CONDITION OF PALESTINE AFTER THE WAR.

of 700,000 people "Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants.

The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. "

Mandate for Palestine - Interim report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations/Balfour Declaration text (30 July 1921)

Not a Zionist site little boy but a completely unbiased one

Right, and I'm Santa Claus.

Then look at the history of your post and see that the ANTI SEMITIC British government fudged the figures to hide the illegal immigration by arab muslims after WW2 while they were ILLEGALLY banning Jewish migration to Palestine.

 

[Phoenall]

Name one.

The South Afrikaaners and Rhodesians separated Whites from Blacks based on Racial Prejudice.

The Israelis separate themselves from Muslim-Arab Palestinians due to safety concerns.

No, they displaced the non-Jews (Christians and Muslims) and separate them because they are non-Jews and want to maintain complete Jewish control, just as the whites wanted to maintain complete control.

Is that why 20% of the citizens in Israel are Non Jewish then. It shows that you are singing from the ISLAMONAZI hymnbook when you post these easily proven LIES.

 

[Phoenall]

Occupations always have security problems.

It comes with the territory.

I wonder if Mr. Tinmore can tell us all about the security problems when Germany and Japan were occupied after World War II. I am not up on this, but perhaps he is the one who knows.

Those were not settler, colonial occupations.

Unlike Palestine that was arab muslim settler colonial occupations that were in breach of International law and the LoN Mandate

 

[Phoenall]

Those were not settler, colonial occupations.

And the Japanese and Germans did not murder Americans the way your Arab brethren want to murder the Jews and destroy Israel. You have posted numerous time that Israel is in Palestine so in your mind all of Israel doesn't exist -- that it is all Arab land.

By the way, Mr. Tinnie, your brethren were some of the biggest colonizers in the world, but of course you close your eyes to that. Look at all the land they are ruling over now from the time they left the Saudi Peninsula.

Nobody has ever posted any proof to the contrary.

Your ISLAMONAZI version of Israel being in Palestine is far removed from the legal aspect of Israel being in Palestine. The legal aspect puts Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon in Palestine as well.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The Arab-Israeli dispute was not caused by the 1967 Occupation. The Occupation was caused by the Arab-Israeli dispute.

Those were not settler, colonial occupations.

(COMMENT)

Yes, there is a point here.

Most Respectfully,
R

OK, but what about the 1948 occupation?

The arab muslims were in breach of International Law and the many treaties they had signed in the preceeding 16 years. So the UN should have sent in a task force and cleared them out of palestine

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The Arab-Israeli dispute was not caused by the 1967 Occupation. The Occupation was caused by the Arab-Israeli dispute.


(COMMENT)

Yes, there is a point here.

Most Respectfully,
R

OK, but what about the 1948 occupation?

What occupation?

He means the arab muslim illegal occupation that wanted all of the land

 

[Phoenall]

Nobody has ever posted any proof to the contrary.

Why thank you for admitting that your brethren were one of the largest colonizers in the world. Such a shame, though, that they can't in this modern world allow the people they rule over to practice their religion in peace.

Well, that is a bit of hyperbole. The British colonized as far away as Australia and New Zealand and at one time 2/3s of the world's population was under British rule. I don't think the Arabs or the Ottomans even came close.

Have you seen a world map lately and just how much land has been acquired by Islamic violence and ethnic cleansing.

Cause for concern that so many Christian nations have been infested with islam.

 

[Phoenall]

Occupations always have security problems.

It comes with the territory.

Yeppers...

And 'separation' is Israel's answer to that security problem...

Fun, ain't it?

And, "separation" or separate development in Afrikaans is called "Apartheid". There you go, you are starting to get it.

It is only apartheid when the country is divided along religious/racial/cultural lines. So were is the apartheid in Israel that you are screeching about. The "separation" in Palestine is the same as the "separation" in Saudi to separate terrorist mass murderers from the population. The "separation" is there to stop suicide bombers targeting Israeli children, the planting of illegal chemical and biological IED's to mass murder Israeli children and to bring about a stop to terrorist attacks on Israel. If the Palestinians are put out by this then they should look to having their government call a halt to state sanctioned terrorism. The solution is in the hands of the Palestinian citizenry and only they can bring about a solution.

 

[MrMax]

P F Tinmore, montelatici, et al,

Certainly NOT!

You are dancing around the question.

(COMMENT)

The Arab Palestinian can be given all the rights and the tools, laws, and guidance that go with them. But if they don't have the were with all to fit it all together, then it is like they have nothing at all.

I can give to a telescope, and with it --- the capability to see Saturn and its rings. I can give you the coordinates (for a given date and time). But if you don't have the knowledge, skills and abilities (KSAs) to set it up, and align it in the right direction, having the telescope (the capability) means nothing; you are still not going to make visual acquisition.​

Just saying the words, means nothing. The reality is, you have to have the KSAs, to combine with the motivation and initiative to make it come together.

The Arab Palestinian had all the capability (and more) it needed to make another Peaceful, prosperous, and productive Arab State. But, not having the KSAs, they threw it all away; as if they never had it at all. They chose a different path, something the Arab Palestinian understood, --- they chose "conflict."


(COMMENT)

So, you are saying that no nation in the world, under occupation, can become prosperous and peaceful nation. That occupation is an impediment to a successful outcome.

That is foolish. Just in the last century, both Japan and Germany were occupied by the Allied Powers. And both are among the most peaceful and prosperous nations on Earth; largely due to their own work and fortitude.

Most Respectfully,
R

You are still dancing.

Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter,

Recalling its relevant resolutions which affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,

1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine, including:

(a) The right to self-determination without external interference;

(b) The right to national independence and sovereignty;

The wording suggests that the Palestinians already had these rights before 1974.

At what point in time and under what circumstances did the Palestinians gain these rights?

Look, the tin hyprocrite is arguing about a meaningless piece of paper again! WOW! WHAT A ******* SURPRISE!!!

At what point in time do you concede defeat to the superior Israelis?

 

[Kondor3]

...Perhaps this will help.

They should have declared on May 14, 1948, alongside the Israelis.

Several months late and a dollar short.

Typical incompetent Palestinian fumbling.

You snooze... you lose.

Palestine declared independence inside its own borders.

Israel declared independence inside Palestine's borders.

OOOPS!

Israel seceded from the nonexistent Union, based primarily upon land parcels that they already owned.

And then made the secession stick.

Ooops!

Next slide, please.

 

[Kondor3]

That map's international boundaries are clear. Those same borders are referenced in the 1949 armistice agreements. There is no question about Palestine's borders.

Then why cant you post a map of Palestine with the marked borders ))
All you have is a map of proposed borders.
I have a map of Israel with the internationally recognized boundaries.

Look at the legend. The international boundaries are marked +-+-+-+-. The proposed, but never implemented, borders are solid lines.

The Palestinian Civil War (the Israeli-Arab Wars of 1947-1949) resulted in a permanent division of the unincorporated territory formerly known as Palestine into a Jewish-controlled nation-state and an unincorporated Muslim-Arab territory.

Wars change maps, and set aside old understandings and legal standings and political configurations.

It's the way the Real World works.

Get used to it.

 

[montelatici]

Then why cant you post a map of Palestine with the marked borders ))
All you have is a map of proposed borders.
I have a map of Israel with the internationally recognized boundaries.

Look at the legend. The international boundaries are marked +-+-+-+-. The proposed, but never implemented, borders are solid lines.

The Palestinian Civil War (the Israeli-Arab Wars of 1947-1949) resulted in a permanent division of the unincorporated territory formerly known as Palestine into a Jewish-controlled nation-state and an unincorporated Muslim-Arab territory.

Wars change maps, and set aside old understandings and legal standings and political configurations.

It's the way the Real World works.

Get used to it.

Unfortunately for Israel, in the real world demographics also change maps.

 

[MHunterB]

Monte - you and Tinnny and the rest may want to re-think that gleeful anticipation already. According to your ilk 'the Jews' (at less than 2% of population) are running the US and half of the Western world - so 'demographics' won't change matters much.

Unless, of course, you assert that the "Palestinians' have the right to legislate their citizenship out from under the Jews the way the Arab League nations across the ME/NA have already done?

In which case it becomes obvious that you - and they - are not on the side of 'peace, justice, and freedom' after all.

But I think most of us already realized that: it's clear enough from the PA/PLO and HAMAS Charters anyway.