I will not Bow!

[toastman]

No. It was just stolen at the point of a gun.

Just as the Jews were also stolen at the point of a gun in Jerusalem and Hebron, so will you ask the arab muslims to vacate east Jerusalem and Hebron so the Jews can have their property back ?

Bear in mind that the muslims will also lose the Temple mount and their proposed capital.

These Jews were European, what were they doing in Jerusalem and Hebron? Had they invaded?

Where did anyone say anything about European Jews?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Think what you like.

Did the Palestinians not flee their homes and head for enemy territory?

Did the Palestinians not lose their homes through a process of forfeiture?

Have those forfeitures been overturned in 66 years?

Have the Palestinians returned to those lands after 66 years?

Any realistic prospect of those forfeitures being overturned in the foreseeable future?

Any realistic prospect of the Palestinians returning to those lands in the foreseeable future?

I never once cited an operative 'law', Tinny, nor did I pretend that one exists, so there was no disingenuous statement or maneuvering on my part.

Everything is out in the open... the land was seized... 66 years ago...

Your boys gave the Israelis all the excuse they needed... old law be damned.

There is no 'crap' to shovel.

I merely articulate Reality.

If you don't like it, feel free to take that up with the IDF.

Did the Palestinians not lose their homes through a process of forfeiture?

No. It was just stolen at the point of a gun.

Just as the Jews were also stolen at the point of a gun in Jerusalem and Hebron, so will you ask the arab muslims to vacate east Jerusalem and Hebron so the Jews can have their property back ?

Bear in mind that the muslims will also lose the Temple mount and their proposed capital.

It was Jordan not the Palestinians who expelled the Jews. You have to remember that Israel and Jordan had an agreement that the West Bank would be given to Jordan if Jordan did not attack Israel in the upcoming 1948 war.

 

[Kondor3]

These Jews were European, what were they doing in Jerusalem and Hebron? Had they invaded?

If memory serves correctly, the Jews of Old Palestine (pre-1948) could be divided into four (4) groups; (1) the Jews whose families had resided there for many generations, (2) the Jews who immigrated there from Europe during the last half of the 19th century and the first decades of the 20th, (3) the Jews who fled Europe just prior to the Holocaust, and (4) the surviving Jews who immigrated to Old Palestine after the Holocaust.

Amongst the Jews, land ownership in Old Palestine - including their holdings in Jerusalem and Hebron - fell largely to (1) and (2)...

Amongst the Jews, political leadership fell largely to (1) and (2)...

The newcomers didn't have much say-so during the early going, although the newcomers did much of the fighting in 1948 and beyond, in order to earn a share in the say-so...

Yes?

Hardly newcomers... and land-owners, to boot.

 

[montelatici]

These Jews were European, what were they doing in Jerusalem and Hebron? Had they invaded?

If memory serves correctly, the Jews of Old Palestine (pre-1948) could be divided into four (4) groups; (1) the Jews whose families had resided there for many generations, (2) the Jews who immigrated there from Europe during the last half of the 19th century and the first decades of the 20th, (3) the Jews who fled Europe just prior to the Holocaust, and (4) the surviving Jews who immigrated to Old Palestine after the Holocaust.

Amongst the Jews, land ownership in Old Palestine - including their holdings in Jerusalem and Hebron - fell largely to (1) and (2)...

Amongst the Jews, political leadership fell largely to (1) and (2)...

The newcomers didn't have much say-so during the early going, although the newcomers did much of the fighting in 1948 and beyond, in order to earn a share in the say-so...

Yes?

Hardly newcomers... and land-owners, to boot.

After substantial European immigration by 1922 the British census reported:

The 1922 British census of Palestine was the first census carried out by the authorities of the British Mandate of Palestine, on 23 October 1922.[1]

The reported population was 757,182, including the military and persons of foreign nationality. The division into religious groups was 590,390 Muslims, 83,694 Jews, 73,024 Christians, 7,028 Druze, 808 Sikhs, 265 Bahais, 156 Metawalis, and 163 Samaritans.[2]

1922 census of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 1931 British census reported:

The population was divided by religion as follows: 759,717 Muslims, 174,610 Jews, 91,398 Christians, 9,148 Druzes, 350 Bahais, 182 Samaritans, and 421 "no religion.

1931 census of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


UN census in 1945 reported:

Total population

Arab State 725,000 99% 10,000 1% 735,000
Jewish State 407,000 45% 498,000 55% 905,000
International 105,000 51% 100,000 49% 205,000
Total 1,237,000 67% 608,000 33% 1,845,000

It can be extrapolated that there were now, in 1945, about 500 thousand Jews.

So from 1922 the Jewish population rose nearly 8 fold through immigration, and you are trying to claim that the vast majority of Jews in Jerusalem and Hebron were not Europeans or their offspring that had arrived at least after 1922. The Ottoman census of the 19th century showed Jews to be an even more miniscule percentage of the population of Palestine, by the way. So, the Jews in Palestine in 1947 were at least 90% European, the Jewish Arabs (as they were referred to then) were a tiny minority of the Jewish population.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

No. It was just stolen at the point of a gun.

Just as the Jews were also stolen at the point of a gun in Jerusalem and Hebron, so will you ask the arab muslims to vacate east Jerusalem and Hebron so the Jews can have their property back ?

Bear in mind that the muslims will also lose the Temple mount and their proposed capital.

It was Jordan not the Palestinians who expelled the Jews. You have to remember that Israel and Jordan had an agreement that the West Bank would be given to Jordan if Jordan did not attack Israel in the upcoming 1948 war.

Can I have a link for that?

 

[montelatici]

Just as the Jews were also stolen at the point of a gun in Jerusalem and Hebron, so will you ask the arab muslims to vacate east Jerusalem and Hebron so the Jews can have their property back ?

Bear in mind that the muslims will also lose the Temple mount and their proposed capital.

It was Jordan not the Palestinians who expelled the Jews. You have to remember that Israel and Jordan had an agreement that the West Bank would be given to Jordan if Jordan did not attack Israel in the upcoming 1948 war.

Can I have a link for that?

"Jordan withdrew its forces from its front posts overlooking the Sharon plain. In return, Israel agreed to allow Jordanian forces to take over positions in the West Bank previously held by Iraqi forces......The intended international enclave of Jerusalem was divided between Israel and Jordan. The Jordanians immediately expelled all the Jewish residents of East Jerusalem."

Jordanian occupation of the West Bank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

It was Jordan not the Palestinians who expelled the Jews. You have to remember that Israel and Jordan had an agreement that the West Bank would be given to Jordan if Jordan did not attack Israel in the upcoming 1948 war.

Can I have a link for that?

"Jordan withdrew its forces from its front posts overlooking the Sharon plain. In return, Israel agreed to allow Jordanian forces to take over positions in the West Bank previously held by Iraqi forces......The intended international enclave of Jerusalem was divided between Israel and Jordan. The Jordanians immediately expelled all the Jewish residents of East Jerusalem."

Jordanian occupation of the West Bank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But Jordan did attack Israel in 1948.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Just as the Jews were also stolen at the point of a gun in Jerusalem and Hebron, so will you ask the arab muslims to vacate east Jerusalem and Hebron so the Jews can have their property back ?

Bear in mind that the muslims will also lose the Temple mount and their proposed capital.

It was Jordan not the Palestinians who expelled the Jews. You have to remember that Israel and Jordan had an agreement that the West Bank would be given to Jordan if Jordan did not attack Israel in the upcoming 1948 war.

Can I have a link for that?

In 1946–1948, Abdullah actually supported partition in order that the Arab allocated areas of the British Mandate for Palestine could be annexed into Transjordan. Abdullah went so far as to have secret meetings with the Jewish Agency (future Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir was among the delegates to these meetings) that came to a mutually agreed upon partition plan independently of the United Nations in November 1947.[16][17] On 17 November 1948, in a secret meeting with Meir, Abdullah stated that he wished to annex all of the Arab parts as a minimum, and would prefer to annex all of Palestine.[18] This idea of secret Zionist-Hashemite negotiations in 1947 was expanded upon by New Historian Avi Shlaim in his book Collusion Across The Jordan: King Abdullah, the Zionist Movement, and the Partition of Palestine. This partition plan was supported by British Foreign Secretary Ernest Bevin who preferred to see Abdullah's territory increased at the expense of the Palestinians rather than risk the creation of a Palestinian state headed by the Mufti of Jerusalem Mohammad Amin al-Husayni.[5][19]

Abdullah I of Jordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[toastman]

Where does it say that Jordan expelled the Jews?

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

It was Jordan not the Palestinians who expelled the Jews. You have to remember that Israel and Jordan had an agreement that the West Bank would be given to Jordan if Jordan did not attack Israel in the upcoming 1948 war.

Can I have a link for that?

In 1946–1948, Abdullah actually supported partition in order that the Arab allocated areas of the British Mandate for Palestine could be annexed into Transjordan. Abdullah went so far as to have secret meetings with the Jewish Agency (future Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir was among the delegates to these meetings) that came to a mutually agreed upon partition plan independently of the United Nations in November 1947.[16][17] On 17 November 1948, in a secret meeting with Meir, Abdullah stated that he wished to annex all of the Arab parts as a minimum, and would prefer to annex all of Palestine.[18] This idea of secret Zionist-Hashemite negotiations in 1947 was expanded upon by New Historian Avi Shlaim in his book Collusion Across The Jordan: King Abdullah, the Zionist Movement, and the Partition of Palestine. This partition plan was supported by British Foreign Secretary Ernest Bevin who preferred to see Abdullah's territory increased at the expense of the Palestinians rather than risk the creation of a Palestinian state headed by the Mufti of Jerusalem Mohammad Amin al-Husayni.[5][19]

Abdullah I of Jordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But Jordan DID attack Israel in 1948, (and again in 1967), so the agreement was void.

 

[P F Tinmore]

David ben Gurion, Golda Meir, and Moshe Dayan.

Although I really don't know just what it is, that you think you're debating.

Reality?

Are you saying that Israel has no current intelligent and articulate people suitable for debate?

Nope. I have no idea whether they have, although I'm hard-pressed to believe that this is so.

Much depends upon the topic for debate.

Surely you know about a few people who could articulate Israel's position.

I would be interested in seeing some presentations perhaps on Youtube.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

I would have Dr Mordechai Kedar as one of the people arguing the case for Israel.

 

[toastman]

Are you saying that Israel has no current intelligent and articulate people suitable for debate?

Nope. I have no idea whether they have, although I'm hard-pressed to believe that this is so.

Much depends upon the topic for debate.

Surely you know about a few people who could articulate Israel's position.

I would be interested in seeing some presentations perhaps on Youtube.

Why do you need a team of other people to debate with?
Can't you debate yourself?

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

Nope. I have no idea whether they have, although I'm hard-pressed to believe that this is so.

Much depends upon the topic for debate.

Surely you know about a few people who could articulate Israel's position.

I would be interested in seeing some presentations perhaps on Youtube.

Why do you need a team of other people to debate with?
Can't you debate yourself?

Of course he can't. Pffftinmore has trouble absorbing facts.

 

[Kondor3]

These Jews were European, what were they doing in Jerusalem and Hebron? Had they invaded?

If memory serves correctly, the Jews of Old Palestine (pre-1948) could be divided into four (4) groups; (1) the Jews whose families had resided there for many generations, (2) the Jews who immigrated there from Europe during the last half of the 19th century and the first decades of the 20th, (3) the Jews who fled Europe just prior to the Holocaust, and (4) the surviving Jews who immigrated to Old Palestine after the Holocaust.

Amongst the Jews, land ownership in Old Palestine - including their holdings in Jerusalem and Hebron - fell largely to (1) and (2)...

Amongst the Jews, political leadership fell largely to (1) and (2)...

The newcomers didn't have much say-so during the early going, although the newcomers did much of the fighting in 1948 and beyond, in order to earn a share in the say-so...

Yes?

Hardly newcomers... and land-owners, to boot.

After substantial European immigration by 1922 the British census reported:

The 1922 British census of Palestine was the first census carried out by the authorities of the British Mandate of Palestine, on 23 October 1922.[1]

The reported population was 757,182, including the military and persons of foreign nationality. The division into religious groups was 590,390 Muslims, 83,694 Jews, 73,024 Christians, 7,028 Druze, 808 Sikhs, 265 Bahais, 156 Metawalis, and 163 Samaritans.[2]

1922 census of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 1931 British census reported:

The population was divided by religion as follows: 759,717 Muslims, 174,610 Jews, 91,398 Christians, 9,148 Druzes, 350 Bahais, 182 Samaritans, and 421 "no religion.

1931 census of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


UN census in 1945 reported:

Total population

Arab State 725,000 99% 10,000 1% 735,000
Jewish State 407,000 45% 498,000 55% 905,000
International 105,000 51% 100,000 49% 205,000
Total 1,237,000 67% 608,000 33% 1,845,000

It can be extrapolated that there were now, in 1945, about 500 thousand Jews.

So from 1922 the Jewish population rose nearly 8 fold through immigration, and you are trying to claim that the vast majority of Jews in Jerusalem and Hebron were not Europeans or their offspring that had arrived at least after 1922. The Ottoman census of the 19th century showed Jews to be an even more miniscule percentage of the population of Palestine, by the way. So, the Jews in Palestine in 1947 were at least 90% European, the Jewish Arabs (as they were referred to then) were a tiny minority of the Jewish population.

No, I claim no such thing. I suggested that most Jewish-controlled land was owned by (1) and (2) (or collectively, with its origins in such ownership) and that those same groups provided most of the high-level leadership of the times - and that this applied to Jerusalem and Hebron and other places.


Sent from my HP 7 using USMessageBoard.com mobile app

 

[Phoenall]

No. It was just stolen at the point of a gun.

Just as the Jews were also stolen at the point of a gun in Jerusalem and Hebron, so will you ask the arab muslims to vacate east Jerusalem and Hebron so the Jews can have their property back ?

Bear in mind that the muslims will also lose the Temple mount and their proposed capital.

It was Jordan not the Palestinians who expelled the Jews. You have to remember that Israel and Jordan had an agreement that the West Bank would be given to Jordan if Jordan did not attack Israel in the upcoming 1948 war.

The Palestinians were involved as well as they fought alongside the Jordanian troops and killed many Jewish women and children. They did not waste any time moving in to the empty Jewish houses and claiming them as their own, now claiming that they lived there for the last 2,000 years

 

[Phoenall]

No. It was just stolen at the point of a gun.

Just as the Jews were also stolen at the point of a gun in Jerusalem and Hebron, so will you ask the arab muslims to vacate east Jerusalem and Hebron so the Jews can have their property back ?

Bear in mind that the muslims will also lose the Temple mount and their proposed capital.

These Jews were European, what were they doing in Jerusalem and Hebron? Had they invaded?

Many were from original inhabitants families who had lived there for 4,000 years. It does not matter if they are European or not they can trace their ancestry back to Israel pre diaspora from DNA haplotypes. The Palestinians can only trace theirs back 100 years at the most.
They were living there as rightful indigenous land owners until the arab muslims invaded their property, raped their females, murdered their men and cast them out to die.

It is the Palestinians who are the Invaders as the Jews were asked to come to Palestine by the lands rightful owners.

 

[Phoenall]

These Jews were European, what were they doing in Jerusalem and Hebron? Had they invaded?

If memory serves correctly, the Jews of Old Palestine (pre-1948) could be divided into four (4) groups; (1) the Jews whose families had resided there for many generations, (2) the Jews who immigrated there from Europe during the last half of the 19th century and the first decades of the 20th, (3) the Jews who fled Europe just prior to the Holocaust, and (4) the surviving Jews who immigrated to Old Palestine after the Holocaust.

Amongst the Jews, land ownership in Old Palestine - including their holdings in Jerusalem and Hebron - fell largely to (1) and (2)...

Amongst the Jews, political leadership fell largely to (1) and (2)...

The newcomers didn't have much say-so during the early going, although the newcomers did much of the fighting in 1948 and beyond, in order to earn a share in the say-so...

Yes?

Hardly newcomers... and land-owners, to boot.

After substantial European immigration by 1922 the British census reported:

The 1922 British census of Palestine was the first census carried out by the authorities of the British Mandate of Palestine, on 23 October 1922.[1]

The reported population was 757,182, including the military and persons of foreign nationality. The division into religious groups was 590,390 Muslims, 83,694 Jews, 73,024 Christians, 7,028 Druze, 808 Sikhs, 265 Bahais, 156 Metawalis, and 163 Samaritans.[2]

1922 census of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 1931 British census reported:

The population was divided by religion as follows: 759,717 Muslims, 174,610 Jews, 91,398 Christians, 9,148 Druzes, 350 Bahais, 182 Samaritans, and 421 "no religion.

1931 census of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


UN census in 1945 reported:

Total population

Arab State 725,000 99% 10,000 1% 735,000
Jewish State 407,000 45% 498,000 55% 905,000
International 105,000 51% 100,000 49% 205,000
Total 1,237,000 67% 608,000 33% 1,845,000

It can be extrapolated that there were now, in 1945, about 500 thousand Jews.

So from 1922 the Jewish population rose nearly 8 fold through immigration, and you are trying to claim that the vast majority of Jews in Jerusalem and Hebron were not Europeans or their offspring that had arrived at least after 1922. The Ottoman census of the 19th century showed Jews to be an even more miniscule percentage of the population of Palestine, by the way. So, the Jews in Palestine in 1947 were at least 90% European, the Jewish Arabs (as they were referred to then) were a tiny minority of the Jewish population.

Wasn't a 5 to 1 advantage enough for the muslims to start a war with the Jews, did they need their usual 15 to 1 or even 20 to 1 to have a chance of breaking even.

You forget that the Mandate demanded that Britain facilitate the migration of Jews to Palestine as agreed with the arab muslim leaders. There was no invasion of European Jews at all, but a planned migration to work the land for everyone's benefit. The invasion came from the muslims who saw it as a means to acquire work during the depression and then to acquire fertile farmland when they wanted. Without this same mandate Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Egypt would still be under British rule and the Palestinians would still be the Jews in the M.E.
But I note you do not agree with the Jews and Christians from having free determination and a land of their own just the mongrel muslim terrorist scum who invaded the land over the last 1400 years.

 

[Phoenall]

It was Jordan not the Palestinians who expelled the Jews. You have to remember that Israel and Jordan had an agreement that the West Bank would be given to Jordan if Jordan did not attack Israel in the upcoming 1948 war.

Can I have a link for that?

"Jordan withdrew its forces from its front posts overlooking the Sharon plain. In return, Israel agreed to allow Jordanian forces to take over positions in the West Bank previously held by Iraqi forces......The intended international enclave of Jerusalem was divided between Israel and Jordan. The Jordanians immediately expelled all the Jewish residents of East Jerusalem."

Jordanian occupation of the West Bank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And the so called Palestinians helped them to do it, and then stole the Jews property and homes.

 

[Phoenall]

It was Jordan not the Palestinians who expelled the Jews. You have to remember that Israel and Jordan had an agreement that the West Bank would be given to Jordan if Jordan did not attack Israel in the upcoming 1948 war.

Can I have a link for that?

In 1946–1948, Abdullah actually supported partition in order that the Arab allocated areas of the British Mandate for Palestine could be annexed into Transjordan. Abdullah went so far as to have secret meetings with the Jewish Agency (future Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir was among the delegates to these meetings) that came to a mutually agreed upon partition plan independently of the United Nations in November 1947.[16][17] On 17 November 1948, in a secret meeting with Meir, Abdullah stated that he wished to annex all of the Arab parts as a minimum, and would prefer to annex all of Palestine.[18] This idea of secret Zionist-Hashemite negotiations in 1947 was expanded upon by New Historian Avi Shlaim in his book Collusion Across The Jordan: King Abdullah, the Zionist Movement, and the Partition of Palestine. This partition plan was supported by British Foreign Secretary Ernest Bevin who preferred to see Abdullah's territory increased at the expense of the Palestinians rather than risk the creation of a Palestinian state headed by the Mufti of Jerusalem Mohammad Amin al-Husayni.[5][19]

Abdullah I of Jordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So what were the arab muslim Palestinians doing at this time, if not assisting Jordan in the mass eviction of the Jews and the theft of their property . So the Jews right of return is backed by land deeds, something the arab muslim Palestinians never had.