I will not Bow!

[Phoenall]

The region known as Palestine was unincorporated and uncharted and without autonomy.

Politically speaking, it was a vacuum - without air - lacking substance.

The borders being referenced here are the territorial limits of Lebanon to the North, Syria and Jordan to the East, and Egypt to the South.

Those borders served to shape the geographic area containing the political vacuum known as Palestine.

The only way 'emptiness' or 'nothingness' or vacuum has a shape is when surrounded by substance.

Substance has its perimeter... its boundaries...its borders.

The substantive nation-states of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt all had borders.

The political emptiness or vacuum of so-called Palestine took its shape - not from its own borders (because it had none, given its nonexistent status as a nation-state) - but from the borders of its neighbors.

The Jews residing within that political vacuum banded together to create political substance utilizing a piece of the vacuum-zone, and they were successful at it.

The Muslim-Arab Palestinians within that political vacuum simply weren't proactive enough and bold enough and intelligent enough and quick enough to do the same with that portion of the vacuum-zone that remained.

As usual with Palestinians... a day late and a dinarii short.

And here they are, 66 years later, still pissing and moaning and looking to pick a fight over old legalities and title-deeds and the un-fairness of it all, rather than emigrating elsewhere.

Not exactly the brightest crayons in the box.

WTF are you talking about?

There was almost 3/4's of a million people living there!

Over a half-million arabs and about 60,000 jews.

Un-incorporated my ass!

And only 30 years previously there were less than 100,000 muslims and 60,000 Jews. those muslims must have been some kind of superstuds to mange to pop out that many new muslims................

 

[P F Tinmore]

I stated that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC) did not have the right to declare independence in September 1948, over the territory that Israel already declared independence over in May 1948.

Where was that territory? What were its borders?

Post a 1948 map of Israel so we can see where the Palestinian declaration encroached on Israel's declared territory.

 

[toastman]

I stated that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC) did not have the right to declare independence in September 1948, over the territory that Israel already declared independence over in May 1948.

Where was that territory? What were its borders?

Post a 1948 map of Israel so we can see where the Palestinian declaration encroached on Israel's declared territory.

It's a very simple concept Tinmore, I don't understand why you are having so much trouble understanding it.

You said that the Palestinians declared independence in 1948. Can you show up a map of the territory in which they declared independence?

 

[P F Tinmore]

I stated that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC) did not have the right to declare independence in September 1948, over the territory that Israel already declared independence over in May 1948.

Where was that territory? What were its borders?

Post a 1948 map of Israel so we can see where the Palestinian declaration encroached on Israel's declared territory.

It's a very simple concept Tinmore, I don't understand why you are having so much trouble understanding it.

You said that the Palestinians declared independence in 1948. Can you show up a map of the territory in which they declared independence?

Sure. Look at the legend on this map of Palestine and find "international boundaries." Then find those boundaries on the map

 

[Phoenall]

QUOTE=P F Tinmore;8483276]

I stated that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC) did not have the right to declare independence in September 1948, over the territory that Israel already declared independence over in May 1948.

Where was that territory? What were its borders?

Post a 1948 map of Israel so we can see where the Palestinian declaration encroached on Israel's declared territory.[/QUOTE]



here you go the proposed partion of the area known as Palestine into a Jewish and muslim nation. The Jews declared independence for the land destined as a Jewish nation. Because the muslims refused their rights ended with that refusal.

 

[toastman]

Again, that is a the map of the U.N partition plan ! It says it right there on the top right ! Those are PROJECTED borders !

 

[toastman]

Where was that territory? What were its borders?

Post a 1948 map of Israel so we can see where the Palestinian declaration encroached on Israel's declared territory.

It's a very simple concept Tinmore, I don't understand why you are having so much trouble understanding it.

You said that the Palestinians declared independence in 1948. Can you show up a map of the territory in which they declared independence?

Sure. Look at the legend on this map of Palestine and find "international boundaries." Then find those boundaries on the map

Do you have a link that says what land the Palestinians declared independence in ??

 

[Phoenall]

Where was that territory? What were its borders?

Post a 1948 map of Israel so we can see where the Palestinian declaration encroached on Israel's declared territory.

It's a very simple concept Tinmore, I don't understand why you are having so much trouble understanding it.

You said that the Palestinians declared independence in 1948. Can you show up a map of the territory in which they declared independence?

Sure. Look at the legend on this map of Palestine and find "international boundaries." Then find those boundaries on the map

So you are now saying that the muslims declared the nation of Israel to be part of their proposed nation because the INTERNATIONAL BORDERS of Egypt, Saudi, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon allegedly mark their limits. A pity that they are the proposed borders of the partition that the muslims had turned down just a few months earlier

 

[Kondor3]

"...Un-incorporated my ass!"

Then it's your ass - doesn't matter to me.

Show us the polity (incorporated or chartered nation-state) called Palestine that existed at the moment the British Mandate was created or that existed at the moment that the British Mandate expired.

Show us a list of countries which had formally recognized Palestine as a nation-state and which had established ambassador--caliber diplomatic relations with Palestine as of 14-May-1948.

Identify for us the Legislative and Executive and Judicial bodies native to Palestine that existed as of 14-May-1948.

Identify for us those who were internationally and generally recognized as having authority over the entirety of the former Mandate as of 14-May-1948.

Show us an internationally and generally recognized Palestinian Declaration of Statehood or Independence that was operative on 14-May-1948.

Show us such things, and you might have a sustainable position, vis a vis incorporation or charter.

Fail to show us such things (and you will fail) and your assertion (Palestine was incorporated or chartered at that point, after all) fails as well.

Sorry.

A segment of the residents of unchartered Palestine chose to strike out on their own, to establish their own polity from that vacuum, and to establish and sustain claims to some of that land.

This can be viewed as...

1. residents of a part of an unincorporated parcel of land declaring themselves a self-governing nation, using land they already owned/controlled, and a few extra parcels tossed-in, once the fighting started

2. civil war between two factions of residents of that unincorporated parcel of land, with autonomy and self-governance and the establishing of a suitable nation-state polity in mind

3. secession from or rebellion against a preexisting polity

Either (1) or (2) can be made to work quite easily, but option (3) will only work if you can satisfy the rigorous multidimensional litmus tests for a preexisting polity.

And there is no escaping the idea that regardless of which of those options (1-3, above) most closely approximates the truth, the Jews were successful, and the Muslim-Arabs were not.

Every conflict has winners and losers.

And the Palestinians are profoundly in the Loser Camp.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Sure. Look at the legend on this map of Palestine and find 'international boundaries.' Then find those boundaries on the map..."

Oh, there were International Borders alright; it's just that they belonged to Lebanon (on that country's southern perimeter) and Syria (on that country's western perimeter) and Jordan (on that country's western perimeter) and Egypt (on that country's northeastern perimeter)... but did not belong to the political vacuum or nothingness that lay within those connected lines. A nonexistent polity cannot own anything by virtue of the fact that it does not exist.

In America, you can have a situation wherein a large, miles-square parcel of already-settled land and heavily-populated land can be unincorporated.

Group A, having control of part of that parcel of land, might want the entire parcel of land for itself, governed by Group A, in a manner similar to that of its neighbors.

Group B, having control of part of that parcel of land, might want the entire parcel of land for itself, governed by Group B, in a manner agreeable to Group B kindred and sympathizers residing elsewhere around the world.

Both groups are manifestly hostile to each other, and do not recognize the right of the other group to rule over them.

Group A decides to take the advice of its neighbors and put off establishing a polity until it is determined if the neighbors can deter Group B from striking out on its own.

Group B decides to strike out on its own, establishes a polity with all the trappings, and establishes and sustains a claim for the sections of land that it controls.

Group A and its neighbors are unsuccessful in preventing Group B from striking out on its own.

Group A suffers (on the macro level) in two ways: (1) it remains subordinate to the wishes of its kindred neighbors and (2) delays establishing a polity of its own until after many prerogatives and much additional land had been needlessly lost.

Group B survives and thrives.

Group A shrivels-up and withers on the vine, and continues to lose more and more land to Group B through foolhardy rejection of prior attempts at compromise, until Group A has virtually nothing left, and no prospect of recovering what was lost.

Basically... Nature has de-selected Group A.

 

[P F Tinmore]

QUOTE=P F Tinmore;8483276]

I stated that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC) did not have the right to declare independence in September 1948, over the territory that Israel already declared independence over in May 1948.

Where was that territory? What were its borders?

Post a 1948 map of Israel so we can see where the Palestinian declaration encroached on Israel's declared territory.

here you go the proposed partion of the area known as Palestine into a Jewish and muslim nation. The Jews declared independence for the land destined as a Jewish nation. Because the muslims refused their rights ended with that refusal.

[/QUOTE]

The international boundaries were marked as international boundaries. The proposed (but never accepted even by Israel) lines never became borders. Israel did not claim those lines as its borders.

 

[Hossfly]

Where was that territory? What were its borders?

Post a 1948 map of Israel so we can see where the Palestinian declaration encroached on Israel's declared territory.

It's a very simple concept Tinmore, I don't understand why you are having so much trouble understanding it.

You said that the Palestinians declared independence in 1948. Can you show up a map of the territory in which they declared independence?

Sure. Look at the legend on this map of Palestine and find "international boundaries." Then find those boundaries on the map

That's a 1946 survey map, Cupcake. You're always adamant about a 1948 map of Israel and you come up with doodly squat.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It's a very simple concept Tinmore, I don't understand why you are having so much trouble understanding it.

You said that the Palestinians declared independence in 1948. Can you show up a map of the territory in which they declared independence?

Sure. Look at the legend on this map of Palestine and find "international boundaries." Then find those boundaries on the map

That's a 1946 survey map, Cupcake. You're always adamant about a 1948 map of Israel and you come up with doodly squat.

So? The 1949 armistice agreements confirmed the continued existence of those borders.

 

[Phoenall]

I didn't say any of that.

I said that Palestinians declared independence on their own land inside their own international borders that were defined some 25 years earlier by international treaties.

I don't see why there is a problem with that.

They could not declare independence as the land was never theirs to claim, it never had any international borders being a part of the Ottoman empire and not a stand alone nation.
What treaties of 1923 gave the Bedouin the land of Palestine under International treaty that dissolved the nations of Jordan, Syria, Saudi and Egypt.

You also said that they claim independence and did not encroach on any of Israel's lands knowing that the "international borders" do not include Israel as a nation and goes against the UN charter of gaining land by force.

Of course that is not true.

A treaty between Egypt and the Ottoman Empire established an international border between the two in 1906. This international border was retained when Palestine was created out of the defunct Ottoman Empire.

The British suggestion of separating Transjordan from Palestine was approved by the League of Nations in 1922 setting the eastern international border of Palestine.

The Treaty of Lausanne Established the International border between Syria (and Lebanon) and Palestine in 1923.

You cant transfer a treaty made between two nations to suit your POV, so stop clutching at straws

Wrong as trans Jordan was still part of Palestine.

Does not matter as Palestine was never a nation to have any borders, and you cant transfer borders to a non existing entity. So until filistan comes into existence legally it cant have any international borders, and this means that they MUST sit down and talk with Israel, Jordan, Egypt and Syria to set their borders to be set in stone.

 

[Phoenall]

The region known as Palestine was unincorporated and uncharted and without autonomy.

Politically speaking, it was a vacuum - without air - lacking substance.

The borders being referenced here are the territorial limits of Lebanon to the North, Syria and Jordan to the East, and Egypt to the South.

Those borders served to shape the geographic area containing the political vacuum known as Palestine.

The only way 'emptiness' or 'nothingness' or vacuum has a shape is when surrounded by substance.

Substance has its perimeter... its boundaries...its borders.

The substantive nation-states of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt all had borders.

The political emptiness or vacuum of so-called Palestine took its shape - not from its own borders (because it had none, given its nonexistent status as a nation-state) - but from the borders of its neighbors.

The Jews residing within that political vacuum banded together to create political substance utilizing a piece of the vacuum-zone, and they were successful at it.

The Muslim-Arab Palestinians within that political vacuum simply weren't proactive enough and bold enough and intelligent enough and quick enough to do the same with that portion of the vacuum-zone that remained.

As usual with Palestinians... a day late and a dinarii short.

And here they are, 66 years later, still pissing and moaning and looking to pick a fight over old legalities and title-deeds and the un-fairness of it all, rather than emigrating elsewhere.

Not exactly the brightest crayons in the box.

WTF are you talking about?

There was almost 3/4's of a million people living there!

Over a half-million arabs and about 60,000 jews.

Un-incorporated my ass!

Makes no difference to the facts that one day they were part of the Ottoman empire and the next they were part of Britain. As is usual the filistans never miss a chance to miss a chance.

 

[Hossfly]

Sure. Look at the legend on this map of Palestine and find "international boundaries." Then find those boundaries on the map

That's a 1946 survey map, Cupcake. You're always adamant about a 1948 map of Israel and you come up with doodly squat.

So? The 1949 armistice agreements confirmed the continued existence of those borders.

Here's a 2014 travel map of Israel.Can you find Palestine?

compass.org/trips/compass-bible-study-trip-to-israel-2014/

 

[toastman]

That's a 1946 survey map, Cupcake. You're always adamant about a 1948 map of Israel and you come up with doodly squat.

So? The 1949 armistice agreements confirmed the continued existence of those borders.

Here's a 2014 travel map of Israel.Can you find Palestine?

compass.org/trips/compass-bible-study-trip-to-israel-2014/

I can't find Palestine here as well:

World Maps: Political, Physical, Satellite, Africa, Asia, Europe

 

[Hossfly]

So? The 1949 armistice agreements confirmed the continued existence of those borders.

Here's a 2014 travel map of Israel.Can you find Palestine?

compass.org/trips/compass-bible-study-trip-to-israel-2014/

I can't find Palestine here as well:

World Maps: Political, Physical, Satellite, Africa, Asia, Europe

Here it is. The whole country moved.


Syria Map - Syria Satellite Image - Physical - Political

 

[P F Tinmore]

They could not declare independence as the land was never theirs to claim, it never had any international borders being a part of the Ottoman empire and not a stand alone nation.
What treaties of 1923 gave the Bedouin the land of Palestine under International treaty that dissolved the nations of Jordan, Syria, Saudi and Egypt.

You also said that they claim independence and did not encroach on any of Israel's lands knowing that the "international borders" do not include Israel as a nation and goes against the UN charter of gaining land by force.

Of course that is not true.

A treaty between Egypt and the Ottoman Empire established an international border between the two in 1906. This international border was retained when Palestine was created out of the defunct Ottoman Empire.

The British suggestion of separating Transjordan from Palestine was approved by the League of Nations in 1922 setting the eastern international border of Palestine.

The Treaty of Lausanne Established the International border between Syria (and Lebanon) and Palestine in 1923.

You cant transfer a treaty made between two nations to suit your POV, so stop clutching at straws

Wrong as trans Jordan was still part of Palestine.

Does not matter as Palestine was never a nation to have any borders, and you cant transfer borders to a non existing entity. So until filistan comes into existence legally it cant have any international borders, and this means that they MUST sit down and talk with Israel, Jordan, Egypt and Syria to set their borders to be set in stone.

Who told you that? You need a better source.

Drawing up the framework of nationality, Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne stated:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.”

Article 30 is of a great significance. It constituted a declaration of existing international law and the standard practice of states. This was despite the absence of a definite international law rule of state succession under which the nationals of predecessor state could ipso facto acquire the nationality of the successor.129 “As a rule, however, States have conferred their nationality on the former nationals of the predecessor State.”130 In practice, almost all peace treaties concluded between the Allies and other states at the end of World War I embodied nationality provisions similar to those of the Treaty of Lausanne. The inhabitants of Palestine, as the successors of this territory, henceforth acquired Palestinian nationality even if there was no treaty with Turkey.131

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

 

[dreolin]

That ol' worm keeps right on turning though, don't it?

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...rigin-for-omar-in-foreign/?intcmp=sem_outloud

Time and Tide and the Tick...Tick...Tick.