I will not Bow!

[P F Tinmore]

I think Rocco's main point is that the Palestinians don't accept the rights of Israel.

What rights of the Palestinians has Israel accepted?

Nice deflection

Seriously, according to Israel, the Palestinians have no rights.

And Israel expects the Palestinians to accept Israel's so called rights.

 

[toastman]

What rights of the Palestinians has Israel accepted?

Nice deflection

Seriously, according to Israel, the Palestinians have no rights.

And Israel expects the Palestinians to accept Israel's so called rights.

According to Israel, Palestinians have no rights??

That sounds like Palestinians propaganda....

 

[P F Tinmore]

Nice deflection

Seriously, according to Israel, the Palestinians have no rights.

And Israel expects the Palestinians to accept Israel's so called rights.

According to Israel, Palestinians have no rights??

That sounds like Palestinians propaganda....

Which circles back to my question:

What rights of the Palestinians has Israel accepted?

 

[toastman]

Seriously, according to Israel, the Palestinians have no rights.

And Israel expects the Palestinians to accept Israel's so called rights.

According to Israel, Palestinians have no rights??

That sounds like Palestinians propaganda....

Which circles back to my question:

What rights of the Palestinians has Israel accepted?

You are more familiar with these rights Tinmore. So answer the question

 

[toastman]

Better yet, why don't you give me a list of the rights of the Palestinians that you ALWAYS talk about, and we'll take it from there. And provide link, for once

 

[P F Tinmore]

Better yet, why don't you give me a list of the rights of the Palestinians that you ALWAYS talk about, and we'll take it from there. And provide link, for once

How about starting with the basics?

The right to self determination without external interference.

 

[toastman]

Who is stopping them for practicing self determination ?? They declared independence in 1988 and the U.N gave them non member observer status.

 

[Billo_Really]

Who is stopping them for practicing self determination ?? They declared independence in 1988 and the U.N gave them non member observer status.

**** that shit!

I'm ordering you to "bow now".

Bow now, brown cow.

Just do it!

 

[toastman]

I don't bow to Lakers fans !!

 

[Billo_Really]

I don't bow to Lakers fans !!

Oh c'mon, we got a one game winning streak going!

 

[toastman]

I don't bow to Lakers fans !!

Oh c'mon, we got a one game winning streak going!

Hahahaha !!

 

[P F Tinmore]

Who is stopping them for practicing self determination ?? They declared independence in 1988 and the U.N gave them non member observer status.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration

 

[Phoenall]

Irrelevant. The Palestinians did not encroach on any territory claimed by Israel.

So you are saying that they did not take part in the war, and that they accepted the nation of Israel as a fact. That they made it clear that Israel was not counted in as part of Palestine and that they were about to steal land that was not theirs .

I didn't say any of that.

I said that Palestinians declared independence on their own land inside their own international borders that were defined some 25 years earlier by international treaties.

I don't see why there is a problem with that.

They could not declare independence as the land was never theirs to claim, it never had any international borders being a part of the Ottoman empire and not a stand alone nation.
What treaties of 1923 gave the Bedouin the land of Palestine under International treaty that dissolved the nations of Jordan, Syria, Saudi and Egypt.

You also said that they claim independence and did not encroach on any of Israel's lands knowing that the "international borders" do not include Israel as a nation and goes against the UN charter of gaining land by force.

 

[P F Tinmore]

So you are saying that they did not take part in the war, and that they accepted the nation of Israel as a fact. That they made it clear that Israel was not counted in as part of Palestine and that they were about to steal land that was not theirs .

I didn't say any of that.

I said that Palestinians declared independence on their own land inside their own international borders that were defined some 25 years earlier by international treaties.

I don't see why there is a problem with that.

They could not declare independence as the land was never theirs to claim, it never had any international borders being a part of the Ottoman empire and not a stand alone nation.
What treaties of 1923 gave the Bedouin the land of Palestine under International treaty that dissolved the nations of Jordan, Syria, Saudi and Egypt.

You also said that they claim independence and did not encroach on any of Israel's lands knowing that the "international borders" do not include Israel as a nation and goes against the UN charter of gaining land by force.

Of course that is not true.

A treaty between Egypt and the Ottoman Empire established an international border between the two in 1906. This international border was retained when Palestine was created out of the defunct Ottoman Empire.

The British suggestion of separating Transjordan from Palestine was approved by the League of Nations in 1922 setting the eastern international border of Palestine.

The Treaty of Lausanne Established the International border between Syria (and Lebanon) and Palestine in 1923.

 

[Kondor3]

The region known as Palestine was unincorporated and uncharted and without autonomy.

Politically speaking, it was a vacuum - without air - lacking substance.

The borders being referenced here are the territorial limits of Lebanon to the North, Syria and Jordan to the East, and Egypt to the South.

Those borders served to shape the geographic area containing the political vacuum known as Palestine.

The only way 'emptiness' or 'nothingness' or vacuum has a shape is when surrounded by substance.

Substance has its perimeter... its boundaries...its borders.

The substantive nation-states of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt all had borders.

The political emptiness or vacuum of so-called Palestine took its shape - not from its own borders (because it had none, given its nonexistent status as a nation-state) - but from the borders of its neighbors.

The Jews residing within that political vacuum banded together to create political substance utilizing a piece of the vacuum-zone, and they were successful at it.

The Muslim-Arab Palestinians within that political vacuum simply weren't proactive enough and bold enough and intelligent enough and quick enough to do the same with that portion of the vacuum-zone that remained.

As usual with Palestinians... a day late and a dinarii short.

And here they are, 66 years later, still pissing and moaning and looking to pick a fight over old legalities and title-deeds and the un-fairness of it all, rather than emigrating elsewhere.

Not exactly the brightest crayons in the box.

 

[rhodescholar]

They could not declare independence as the land was never theirs to claim, it never had any international borders being a part of the Ottoman empire and not a stand alone nation. What treaties of 1923 gave the Bedouin the land of Palestine under International treaty that dissolved the nations of Jordan, Syria, Saudi and Egypt. You also said that they claim independence and did not encroach on any of Israel's lands knowing that the "international borders" do not include Israel as a nation and goes against the UN charter of gaining land by force.

One of the reasons I do not even read or waste my time with these anti-Israel lying ***** and filth liars like pftin-douchebag is the abject hypocrisy not-so-bright trash like this represents, as they relentlessly whine about the "illegitimacy" of israel, but ignore a country like syria, which was also artificially drawn on a map with a minority group being granted control over a far larger majority, by the same people who drew the lines of 1948 Israel. These lowlifes will also complain about how "jews migrated en masse into the land, and are immigrants to it", but never complain about how sunni and shia muslims immigrated in huge numbers into lebanon, destroying what was once the shining jewel of the mideast turning it into yet another disgusting arab muslim shithole.

Another simple reason to ignore a piece of shit like tin-douche is that it has no interest in actual discussion, it changes the topic whenever cornered and just repeats one liners. It should just be broadly ignored until it leaves the forum.

 

[Phoenall]

I didn't say any of that.

I said that Palestinians declared independence on their own land inside their own international borders that were defined some 25 years earlier by international treaties.

I don't see why there is a problem with that.

They could not declare independence as the land was never theirs to claim, it never had any international borders being a part of the Ottoman empire and not a stand alone nation.
What treaties of 1923 gave the Bedouin the land of Palestine under International treaty that dissolved the nations of Jordan, Syria, Saudi and Egypt.

You also said that they claim independence and did not encroach on any of Israel's lands knowing that the "international borders" do not include Israel as a nation and goes against the UN charter of gaining land by force.

Of course that is not true.

A treaty between Egypt and the Ottoman Empire established an international border between the two in 1906. This international border was retained when Palestine was created out of the defunct Ottoman Empire.

The British suggestion of separating Transjordan from Palestine was approved by the League of Nations in 1922 setting the eastern international border of Palestine.

The Treaty of Lausanne Established the International border between Syria (and Lebanon) and Palestine in 1923.

WRONG as the border was between Egypt and the Ottomans, the Palestinians did not exist at that time and neither did the nation of Palestine. Read the details in the International Law books dealing with borders. All that remained was the Egyptian part of the border.
Irrelevant as trans Jordan was still a part of Palestine according to the maps of the time, the same maps that you have used to show that the non existent nation of Palestine had international borders, when what you really meant was the borders of the Ottoman empire.
Wrong as this was preceded by the setting up of the British mandate, and then superseded by the setting up of the UN. You cant claim Borders and then change their position to suit your RACIST ANTI SEMITIC JEW HATRED because yiu want to see Israel destroyed.

The fact remains that Israel is the only nation in the area now known as Palestine to have a legal right to exist and is recognised as such by the UN and International Law. Your posturing and dredging up old voided agreements show that you are clutching at straws to justify your POV.

ISREAL EXISTS UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW, PALESTINE DOES NOT GET USED TO IT.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,

Well, this is not exactly accurate.

You never have posted a link explaining how recent immigrants have the right to self determination and the indigenous population does not.

Where did Rocco say that the indigenous population don't have the right to self determination?
You keep asking Rocco questions about other issues, when you are quoting his posts.

Roccoo has many times stated that the immigrant Jews exercised their right to self determination by creating Israel.

He has also stated many times the the indigenous population has no such right.

He has yet to provide links to confirm his statements.

(COMMENT)

I stated that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC) did not have the right to declare independence in September 1948, over the territory that Israel already declared independence over in May 1948.

Two groups cannot claim the same same territory.

The AHC was late in coming, rejected UN recommendations, opposed implementation, and chose to use force to overturn the UN Partition Plan.

The Jewish Agency was early in their acceptance of the UN recommendation, openly participated in the implementation process, and did not use armed force in the steps preparatory to independence.​

I'm a bit confused. you said: "recently"

The historical longevity of the Hostile Arab-Palestinian (HoAP) in residence (indigenous population) does not have anything to do with "self-governing control or authority," "sovereignty," or "territorial independence." In this case, the HoAP uses this argument merely as an expression of sympathy in the projection of the perpetual image of a victim.

You never have posted a link explaining how recent immigrants have the right to self determination and the indigenous population does not.

(COMMENT)

I'm assuming you are talking about "May 1948." The immigrants were invited to the region. They were there to put "into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." (Article 95, Treaty of Sevres; Paragraph (b), San Remo Convention)

The indigenous Arab Palestinians, in exercising their right to self-determination, have the right to autonomy or self-government in matters relating to their internal and local affairs, as well as ways and means for financing their autonomous functions. The indigenous Arab Palestinians have the right to maintain and strengthen their distinct political, legal, economic, social and cultural institutions, while retaining their right to participate fully, if they so choose, in the political, economic, social and cultural life of the State. The indigenous Arab Palestinians DID NOT then, and DO NOT now have the right to unilaterally overturn by force the decisions of the Treaty, or the UN in matters governing the establishment of "sovereign entities" and the Partition of States.

The indigenous population has the right of "self-determination" in so far as it does not interfere with the legal proceedings as established by international law. Nothing in international law says that the indigenous Arab Palestinians (or indeed any Arab people) have the right to declare a sovereignty unto themselves. One needs only look at the outcome of the recent "Arab Spring" to observe the rights of the indigenous Arab in such self-governing situations.

No indigenous Arab Palestinians has the right to declare a jihad or genocide on the Jewish People. If it takes a two-State solution to prevent indigenous Arab Palestinians the aim of depriving the Israelis (Jews) of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural values or ethnic identities (“The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out – man women and child."), then the General Assembly has the right and the duty to extend that solution. The indigenous Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) has a DUTY to refrain in their
international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State (including the State of Israel). The principle that indigenous Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered.

The indigenous Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) has NO RIGHT to obstruct the Jewish People from following the accepted Plan of the UN. The right of legally established State of Israel to combat foreign attacks by externally interfering Arab States and aggression by Arab Armies, is absolute. The Jewish State has the right to defend against the Jihad and armed struggle, or aggression the HoAP use to defy the implementation of the UN Partition Plan; and the Israeli steps taken to secure their right to self-determination, and independence.

Finally, and most importantly, the Indigenous peoples and individuals are free and equal to all other peoples and individuals and have the right to be free from any kind of discrimination, in the exercise of their rights, in particular that based on their indigenous origin or identity. But this DOES NOT SAY that the HoAP has GREATER rights or freedoms from those exercised by the Israeli (whether they are considered immigrant or not). In the end, HoAP has no greater rights than those of the Jews that came to the Mandated Territory under the Immigration Plan and Authority of the Allied Powers (the successor government power).

If the last six decades of HoAP violence are based on the misguided assumption that the HoAP indigenous population had some superior rights to sovereignty, then that is dispelled.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Phoenall]

The region known as Palestine was unincorporated and uncharted and without autonomy.

Politically speaking, it was a vacuum - without air - lacking substance.

The borders being referenced here are the territorial limits of Lebanon to the North, Syria and Jordan to the East, and Egypt to the South.

Those borders served to shape the geographic area containing the political vacuum known as Palestine.

The only way 'emptiness' or 'nothingness' or vacuum has a shape is when surrounded by substance.

Substance has its perimeter... its boundaries...its borders.

The substantive nation-states of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt all had borders.

The political emptiness or vacuum of so-called Palestine took its shape - not from its own borders (because it had none, given its nonexistent status as a nation-state) - but from the borders of its neighbors.

The Jews residing within that political vacuum banded together to create political substance utilizing a piece of the vacuum-zone, and they were successful at it.

The Muslim-Arab Palestinians within that political vacuum simply weren't proactive enough and bold enough and intelligent enough and quick enough to do the same with that portion of the vacuum-zone that remained.

As usual with Palestinians... a day late and a dinarii short.

And here they are, 66 years later, still pissing and moaning and looking to pick a fight over old legalities and title-deeds and the un-fairness of it all, rather than emigrating elsewhere.

Not exactly the brightest crayons in the box.

Don't forget that Palestine the place extended into Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt because it was not a nation but a smudge on the map. A good example is the Bonneville salt flats that change shape and size every year, another is the Russian Steppes that are just as changeable and neither have clearly defined borders because of their intransigence and shifting manner.

 

[Billo_Really]

The region known as Palestine was unincorporated and uncharted and without autonomy.

Politically speaking, it was a vacuum - without air - lacking substance.

The borders being referenced here are the territorial limits of Lebanon to the North, Syria and Jordan to the East, and Egypt to the South.

Those borders served to shape the geographic area containing the political vacuum known as Palestine.

The only way 'emptiness' or 'nothingness' or vacuum has a shape is when surrounded by substance.

Substance has its perimeter... its boundaries...its borders.

The substantive nation-states of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt all had borders.

The political emptiness or vacuum of so-called Palestine took its shape - not from its own borders (because it had none, given its nonexistent status as a nation-state) - but from the borders of its neighbors.

The Jews residing within that political vacuum banded together to create political substance utilizing a piece of the vacuum-zone, and they were successful at it.

The Muslim-Arab Palestinians within that political vacuum simply weren't proactive enough and bold enough and intelligent enough and quick enough to do the same with that portion of the vacuum-zone that remained.

As usual with Palestinians... a day late and a dinarii short.

And here they are, 66 years later, still pissing and moaning and looking to pick a fight over old legalities and title-deeds and the un-fairness of it all, rather than emigrating elsewhere.

Not exactly the brightest crayons in the box.

WTF are you talking about?

There was almost 3/4's of a million people living there!

Over a half-million arabs and about 60,000 jews.

Un-incorporated my ass!