I will not Bow!

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Grasping at straws! Just a couple of points.

Again, you are using a Regional Treaty (Signatories limited to the Organization of American States) and not applicable to the Middle East.

Montevideo Convention, in full Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States, agreement signed at Montevideo, Uruguay, on December 26, 1933 (and entering into force the following year), that established the standard definition of a state under international law.

Montevideo Convention (international agreement [1933]) -- Encyclopedia Britannica

(COMMENT)

The Montevideo Convention is an important "legal precedent;" I agree that there is no question in this. If you use the definition of a "state" from the Montevideo Convention, then under the Convention, an entity is a State when it possesses:

(1) a permanent population;
(2 )a defined territory;
(3 )a government and
(4) the capacity to enter into relations with other states.​

But these are the "minimum criteria" and not all inclusive.

Even under the Montevideo Convention, there is the requirement for the capacity to enter into relations with other states. And under Pursuant to Article 8 of the 1969 VIENNA CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF TREATIES, an act relating to the conclusion of a treaty performed by a person who cannot be considered under Article 7 as authorized to represent a State (having full powers) for that purpose is without legal effect unless afterwards confirmed by that State.

The Seventh Arab League Summit Conference Resolution on Palestine did not establish the PLO as the the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people until 28 October 1974. It was only then did the Palestine have the "capacity." Further, several concepts to which you should consider as to how, in 1948, or in 1967, the Arab-Palestinian factored:

1. State: a large social system with a set of rules that are enforced by a permanent administrative body (government). That body claims and tries to enforce sovereignty. That is, the state claims to be the highest source of decision-making of the social system within its jurisdiction, and it rejects outside interference in making or enforcing its set of rules. The many smaller systems within the state are not sovereign, nor are large international organizations like the United Nations, since states routinely reject their authority. The state is a political concept that refers to the exercise of power or the ability to make and enforce rules.

2. Sovereign: ultimate power to control people and events within the area of the state.

3. Nation: a group of individuals who feel that they have so much in common (interests, habits, ways of thinking, and the like) that they should all become a particular state. Unlike the term state, the term nation refers to the subjective feelings of its people. By this definition almost all the present nations would like to become nation-states, but many nations are actually parts of other states, and many states are not nation-states. On the whole, nation-states can count on much greater loyalty from their citizens than states that contain many nations, and this gives them greater strength in their inter- national dealings. (As you can see, the term “international” should really be “interstate”).

4. Society: the population controlled by a state, or the population that forms a nation, or both. Some societies are territorially limited to a single geographical area and a single state while others are not. The term society, unlike the terms state and nation, is not limited to a single definition because societies overlap with different states and nations.

5. Country: a well-defined geographical area. The term simply refers to a spatial concept.

SOURCE: DEFINITION OF PRINCIPAL TERMS IN INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS

There was no point or period, between the outbreak of hostilities (May 1948) and the end of Occupation (1967 - West Bank and Gaza Strip), that the Palestinian People had the means, ability or capacity, to enter into an international agreement concluded between States. There was no competent authority for the Palestinians designating a person or persons to represent the State for negotiating.

The Arab Higher Committee (formed on 25 April 1936) was an informal agency with no real official recognition. The AHC was disbanded, reconstituted, and reorganized by the Arab League (Nov '45 and May '46), and became the puppet regime of the Arab League. It was never able to form an effective All-Palestine Government and never became recognized.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Montevideo Convention is an important "legal precedent;" I agree that there is no question in this. If you use the definition of a "state" from the Montevideo Convention, then under the Convention, an entity is a State when it possesses:

(1) a permanent population;
(2 )a defined territory;
(3 )a government and
(4) the capacity to enter into relations with other states.

But these are the "minimum criteria" and not all inclusive.

Where does Israel fit into this description?

(1) a permanent population;
Israel's "permanent population" was a bunch of foreign immigrants from different countries.

(2 )a defined territory;
Israel has never had a defined territory.

(3 )a government and
Israel's government was formed by foreign organizations against the wishes of the native population.

(4) the capacity to enter into relations with other states.
Well, OK.

 

[pbel]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Grasping at straws! Just a couple of points.

Again, you are using a Regional Treaty (Signatories limited to the Organization of American States) and not applicable to the Middle East.

Montevideo Convention, in full Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States, agreement signed at Montevideo, Uruguay, on December 26, 1933 (and entering into force the following year), that established the standard definition of a state under international law.

Montevideo Convention (international agreement [1933]) -- Encyclopedia Britannica

(COMMENT)

The Montevideo Convention is an important "legal precedent;" I agree that there is no question in this. If you use the definition of a "state" from the Montevideo Convention, then under the Convention, an entity is a State when it possesses:

(1) a permanent population;
(2 )a defined territory;
(3 )a government and
(4) the capacity to enter into relations with other states.​

But these are the "minimum criteria" and not all inclusive.

Even under the Montevideo Convention, there is the requirement for the capacity to enter into relations with other states. And under Pursuant to Article 8 of the 1969 VIENNA CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF TREATIES, an act relating to the conclusion of a treaty performed by a person who cannot be considered under Article 7 as authorized to represent a State (having full powers) for that purpose is without legal effect unless afterwards confirmed by that State.

The Seventh Arab League Summit Conference Resolution on Palestine did not establish the PLO as the the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people until 28 October 1974. It was only then did the Palestine have the "capacity." Further, several concepts to which you should consider as to how, in 1948, or in 1967, the Arab-Palestinian factored:

1. State: a large social system with a set of rules that are enforced by a permanent administrative body (government). That body claims and tries to enforce sovereignty. That is, the state claims to be the highest source of decision-making of the social system within its jurisdiction, and it rejects outside interference in making or enforcing its set of rules. The many smaller systems within the state are not sovereign, nor are large international organizations like the United Nations, since states routinely reject their authority. The state is a political concept that refers to the exercise of power or the ability to make and enforce rules.

2. Sovereign: ultimate power to control people and events within the area of the state.

3. Nation: a group of individuals who feel that they have so much in common (interests, habits, ways of thinking, and the like) that they should all become a particular state. Unlike the term state, the term nation refers to the subjective feelings of its people. By this definition almost all the present nations would like to become nation-states, but many nations are actually parts of other states, and many states are not nation-states. On the whole, nation-states can count on much greater loyalty from their citizens than states that contain many nations, and this gives them greater strength in their inter- national dealings. (As you can see, the term “international” should really be “interstate”).

4. Society: the population controlled by a state, or the population that forms a nation, or both. Some societies are territorially limited to a single geographical area and a single state while others are not. The term society, unlike the terms state and nation, is not limited to a single definition because societies overlap with different states and nations.

5. Country: a well-defined geographical area. The term simply refers to a spatial concept.

SOURCE: DEFINITION OF PRINCIPAL TERMS IN INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS

There was no point or period, between the outbreak of hostilities (May 1948) and the end of Occupation (1967 - West Bank and Gaza Strip), that the Palestinian People had the means, ability or capacity, to enter into an international agreement concluded between States. There was no competent authority for the Palestinians designating a person or persons to represent the State for negotiating.

The Arab Higher Committee (formed on 25 April 1936) was an informal agency with no real official recognition. The AHC was disbanded, reconstituted, and reorganized by the Arab League (Nov '45 and May '46), and became the puppet regime of the Arab League. It was never able to form an effective All-Palestine Government and never became recognized.

Most Respectfully,
R

Honestly, what is the point of going over old treaties ad nauseam? The Palestinians have been given International approval by the UN recognizing the State of Palestine to the 67 borders. By applying to the UN and getting recognition to set borders is where I start along with the UN...Sure Israel will ignore, take more land, kill Arabs, a certainty...


In the end, Israeli non-recognition of UN resolutions only makes her the Pariah of the world, and eventually boycotted like South Africa. The World will get its way...

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, I believe you to be mistaken.

Henceforth, Palestinian nationality was first founded, according to international law, on 6 August 1924. And “treaty nationality in Palestine runs from that date.”139 The Treaty of Lausanne had transformed the de facto status of Palestinian nationality into de jure existence from the angle of international law.140 Meanwhile, the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist.141 Likewise, on 6 August 1924, for the first time ever, international law certified the birth of the ‘Palestinian people’ as distinct from all other peoples.
Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

(COMMENT)

The Palestinian nationality under Mandatory Authority (de jure existence - soup of the day) has absolutely nothing to do with "independence" or "sovereignty."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Montevideo Convention is an important "legal precedent;" I agree that there is no question in this. If you use the definition of a "state" from the Montevideo Convention, then under the Convention, an entity is a State when it possesses:

(1) a permanent population;
(2 )a defined territory;
(3 )a government and
(4) the capacity to enter into relations with other states.

But these are the "minimum criteria" and not all inclusive.

Where does Israel fit into this description?

(1) a permanent population;
Israel's "permanent population" was a bunch of foreign immigrants from different countries.

(2 )a defined territory;
Israel has never had a defined territory.

(3 )a government and
Israel's government was formed by foreign organizations against the wishes of the native population.

(4) the capacity to enter into relations with other states.
Well, OK.

Where does Palestine fit into this description?

(1) a permanent population;
The vast majority of Palestinians can trace their ancestry back hundreds of years.

(2 )a defined territory;
Palestine has had international borders dating back to post WWI treaties.

(3 )a government and
About 80 Palestinian political leaders formed a government and declared independence in 1948.

(4) the capacity to enter into relations with other states.
Due to illegal external interference (foreign military occupation) the government has had little power to do anything.

 

[Kondor3]

"...You can't chase me! It was all mine in 1948 and that makes you illegal !!!

"...I'm gonna tell the U.N...!!! "

 

[RoccoR]

pbel, et al,

There are two sides to this issue.

Honestly, what is the point of going over old treaties ad nauseam?

(COMMENT)

You are right. There must be a way to effectively negotiate with the Hostile Palestinians that pledged genocide on the Israelis.

However, I do think that the Israeli Government needs to put the hammer down on these renegade settlers raising havoc in the OtP. The Israelis need to round these guys up and put them away.

They are not making any kind of positive contribution towards peace. In fact they are making a mess of it all. They need to be arrested and extradited to the Palestinians.

The Palestinians have been given International approval by the UN recognizing the State of Palestine to the 67 borders. By applying to the UN and getting recognition to set borders is where I start along with the UN...Sure Israel will ignore, take more land, kill Arabs, a certainty...

(COMMENT)

Eventually all the Occupied Territory will be negotiated out in the Peace Talks. There is going to be a fair set of claims with restitution. But the Arab-Palestinians must be willing to atone for all the crimes they have committed. Their hands are not clean.

In the end, Israeli non-recognition of UN resolutions only makes her the Pariah of the world, and eventually boycotted like South Africa. The World will get its way...

(COMMENT)

Ahh --- The world knows that the Palestinians and the Israelis have to work this out for themselves.

But, there are powerful forces in the background that would rather the conflict continue indefinitely.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I totally disagree.

Where does Palestine fit into this description?

• (1) a permanent population;
  
  The vast majority of Palestinians can trace their ancestry back hundreds of years.​
• (2 )a defined territory;
  
  Palestine has had international borders dating back to post WWI treaties.​
• (3 )a government and
  
  About 80 Palestinian political leaders formed a government and declared independence in 1948.​
• (4) the capacity to enter into relations with other states.
  
  Due to illegal external interference (foreign military occupation) the government has had little power to do anything.​

(COMMENT)

The Arab-Palestinian has been the aggressor from the beginning.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[pbel]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I totally disagree.

Where does Palestine fit into this description?

• (1) a permanent population;
  
  The vast majority of Palestinians can trace their ancestry back hundreds of years.​
• (2 )a defined territory;
  
  Palestine has had international borders dating back to post WWI treaties.​
• (3 )a government and
  
  About 80 Palestinian political leaders formed a government and declared independence in 1948.​
• (4) the capacity to enter into relations with other states.
  
  Due to illegal external interference (foreign military occupation) the government has had little power to do anything.​

(COMMENT)

The Arab-Palestinian has been the aggressor from the beginning.

Most Respectfully,
R

did you expect them to welcome you with flowers and help you disposes them by Western Colonial Fiat? You are a hoot, Rocco!

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I totally disagree.

Where does Palestine fit into this description?

• (1) a permanent population;
  
  The vast majority of Palestinians can trace their ancestry back hundreds of years.​
• (2 )a defined territory;
  
  Palestine has had international borders dating back to post WWI treaties.​
• (3 )a government and
  
  About 80 Palestinian political leaders formed a government and declared independence in 1948.​
• (4) the capacity to enter into relations with other states.
  
  Due to illegal external interference (foreign military occupation) the government has had little power to do anything.​

(COMMENT)

The Arab-Palestinian has been the aggressor from the beginning.

Most Respectfully,
R

Where am I incorrect?

Did the Arab-Palestinian aggression start when they went to Europe and attacked the Zionists?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, I believe you to be mistaken.

Henceforth, Palestinian nationality was first founded, according to international law, on 6 August 1924. And “treaty nationality in Palestine runs from that date.”139 The Treaty of Lausanne had transformed the de facto status of Palestinian nationality into de jure existence from the angle of international law.140 Meanwhile, the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist.141 Likewise, on 6 August 1924, for the first time ever, international law certified the birth of the ‘Palestinian people’ as distinct from all other peoples.
Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

(COMMENT)

The Palestinian nationality under Mandatory Authority (de jure existence - soup of the day) has absolutely nothing to do with "independence" or "sovereignty."

Most Respectfully,
R

Well actually it does. A nation of people inside a defined territory have inherent rights like the right to self determination without external interference, and the right to sovereignty.

A mandatory is irrelevant because it does not have the authority to violate these rights.

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, I believe you to be mistaken.

Henceforth, Palestinian nationality was first founded, according to international law, on 6 August 1924. And “treaty nationality in Palestine runs from that date.”139 The Treaty of Lausanne had transformed the de facto status of Palestinian nationality into de jure existence from the angle of international law.140 Meanwhile, the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist.141 Likewise, on 6 August 1924, for the first time ever, international law certified the birth of the ‘Palestinian people’ as distinct from all other peoples.
Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

(COMMENT)

The Palestinian nationality under Mandatory Authority (de jure existence - soup of the day) has absolutely nothing to do with "independence" or "sovereignty."

Most Respectfully,
R

Well actually it does. A nation of people inside a defined territory have inherent rights like the right to self determination without external interference, and the right to sovereignty.

A mandatory is irrelevant because it does not have the authority to violate these rights.

No, it doesn't.....

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I totally disagree.

Where does Palestine fit into this description?

• (1) a permanent population;
  
  The vast majority of Palestinians can trace their ancestry back hundreds of years.​
• (2 )a defined territory;
  
  Palestine has had international borders dating back to post WWI treaties.​
• (3 )a government and
  
  About 80 Palestinian political leaders formed a government and declared independence in 1948.​
• (4) the capacity to enter into relations with other states.
  
  Due to illegal external interference (foreign military occupation) the government has had little power to do anything.​

(COMMENT)

The Arab-Palestinian has been the aggressor from the beginning.

Most Respectfully,
R

Where am I incorrect?

Did the Arab-Palestinian aggression start when they went to Europe and attacked the Zionists?

LOL You say this as if it means anything

What a ridiculous, childish argument, the Jews who immigrated had every right to be there, and the Palestinian Arabs had no right to tell them not to be.

 

[Phoenall]

Well, at least you finally admit that Palestine wasn't a country in 1948, after runnig around the forum spewing your usual: It was the Zionists who came to take over the country of Palestine"

LOL

An interesting and ironic and comical development...

Implicit admission of 'Nonexistent Status', with regard to statehood.

In light of the context surrounding the remark, it's just as powerful as an explicit admission.

I'd consider bookmarking the post (or your own response, which he can't edit) for future use.

That 'Nonexistent Status' is just Israeli propaganda. You obviously have no clue as to the history of Palestine.

In international law, when a state is dissolved and new states are established, “the population follows the change of sovereignty in matters of nationality.”5 As a rule, therefore, citizens of the former state should automatically acquire the nationality of the successor state in which they had already been residing.

In a broader international context, the “Nationality law… showed that the Palestinians formed a nation, and that Palestine was a State, though provisionally under guardianship.”90 The inclusion of Palestinian nationality in the text of the Palestine Mandate was the first step towards an international recognition of the Palestinian people as distinct from the Ottoman people and other peoples. Palestinian nationality, like any other nationality, constitutes the formula by which a certain group of individuals are being legally connected and enabled to form the people element of the state.91

Nationality constitutes a legal bond that connects individuals with a specific territory, making them citizens of that territory. It is therefore imperative to examine the boundaries of Palestine in order to define the piece of land on which Palestinian nationality was established.

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

When the mandate left Palestine it was no longer under guardianship. Therefore, the Palestinians formed a government and declared independence inside its international borders in 1948. It did not encroach on any other territory.

To do that they must first agree that Israel is a nation and has the right to exist as a nation. Then they would have to accept the UN partition plan and agree borders. The fact that the muslims refused to do any of this means that you are TELLING LIES. Were is this declaration of independence, who was it made to and who witnessed it. I have given you the de facto map of Palestine and it shows that it rakes in all of modern Jordan, part of Saudi, part of Syria, part of Lebanon and part of Egypt. Are you stating categorically that the itinerant illiterate muslim squatters claim all that as their Nation and the arab league has done nothing about it ?

And for the record they were instrumental in the attacks on Israel a SOVERIEGN NATION recognised by the UN and the majority of the worlds nations.

 

[Phoenall]

This is about Lebanon's territorial integrity inside Lebanon's international borders. It says nothing about any Israeli territory or borders.

Funny. Lebanon has no borders!

Even funnier is the fact they do and they were set in stone many decades ago, and here they are

 

[Phoenall]

Posters like your plead anti-Semitism yet support the expropriation of land from a helpless defenseless population...Israel does not seem to understand the world community that this is against International Law...The last time a land grab in Serbia we bombed it to smithereens...She only hangs on to US Power because of AIPAC Control of Congress...

Only American withdrawal of support will reign her in. We desperately need Campaign fFinance Reform to Remove Money from Politics!

Yes and you bombed the wrong side leaving the true land owners homeless and starving, while the muslims from the M.E carved up the land for themselves. Have you learnt nothing from what happened in Yugoslavia

I see, right wing Zionists would have preferred the US to support Milosevic and the Holocaust murderer Ratko Miladic? You right wingers act like Fascists.

Nothing to do with left or right wing the fact is like all Islamic takeovers the militants surge in from outside and swell the numbers of terrorists. There were no problems in Yugoslavia prior to the muslims demanding yet another Islamic nation, it had a thriving economy and was the playground of Europe. Have you seen any of the atrocities carried out by the muslims in their terrorist attacks, the piles of bodies from mass murders and cannibalistic feasts. The defiled bodies of children and signs of post mortem rape. Is it any wonder the non Muslims retaliated to this with ethnic cleansing of insurgents and muslim terrorists. How many innocent women and children did the USA MASS MURDER in your name during the conflict.
We see the same thing happening in Lebanon and Syria today and you are itching to get tales of bloodshed and war crimes so you can send in the troops to clean it all up. Thus paving the way for a neo Marxist puppet government in the M.E.

 

[Phoenall]

That 'Nonexistent Status' is just Israeli propaganda. You obviously have no clue as to the history of Palestine.



When the mandate left Palestine it was no longer under guardianship. Therefore, the Palestinians formed a government and declared independence inside its international borders in 1948. It did not encroach on any other territory.

The paleatinians declared independence in 1988

It is YOU who knows nothing about Palestine

A/C.1/330 of 14 October 1948

SO they decided to circumvent un181 and take the land of Israel against the UN charter, is it any wonder this was disallowed and rejected by all the nations of the world
It was also too late as the war had begun and the arab armies were invading Israel, and as the UN charter says acquisition of land through war is not permissible.

 

[Phoenall]

I see, right wing Zionists would have proffered the US to support Milosevic and the Holocaust murderer Ratko Miladic? You right wingers act like Fascists.

What does this drivel mean?

It means he is a left wing looney that supports the MASS MURDER of millions if they object to the state being the ultimate ruler. They side with the muslims so they can have oil to make the gears of industry go round, but would invade in a second if it looked like they were going to lose the oil. They see no wrong in starving millions to death or enslaving them to work in factories.

 

[Phoenall]

I see, right wing Zionists would have proffered the US to support Milosevic and the Holocaust murderer Ratko Miladic? You right wingers act like Fascists.

What does this drivel mean?

That people who support the expulsion of the Palestinians from their Homelands are Fascists, Mauser.

Would that be their Syrian homeland, Jordanian homeland, Iraqi homeland, Iranian homeland, Egyptian homeland or Saudi homeland. Because Palestine was never their real homeland was it, they arrived in the mid 19c on the promise of work on Jewish farms.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are something.

A/C.1/330 of 14 October 1948

(COMMENT)

The citation you posted, is well known and is equally invalid and unsound. It comes months after the Jewish Agency declared independence of Israel. Even the Arab League understood that it was invalid; and was (one) the main reason the Arab League dissolved that iteration of the Arab Higher Committee (AHC) which submitted it for incompetence.

The AHC did not follow the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" set by the General Assembly; and territorially covered territory already declared independent. Thus the nonsensical declaration went unrecognized.

Most Respectfully,
R

The citation you posted, is well known and is equally invalid and unsound. It comes months after the Jewish Agency declared independence of Israel.

Irrelevant. The Palestinians did not encroach on any territory claimed by Israel.

So you are saying that they did not take part in the war, and that they accepted the nation of Israel as a fact. That they made it clear that Israel was not counted in as part of Palestine and that they were about to steal land that was not theirs .