I will not Bow!

[RoccoR]

Phoenall, P F Tinmore, toastman, et al,

Yes it is a good question.

The UN, and the Arab League, "consider the Arab-Israeli conflict at an end." They consider "the establishment of an independent, sovereign Palestinian State in the Palestinian territories occupied since 4 June 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital." Jointly, they agree the Arab States, including Palestine, should "enter into a peace agreement between them and Israel while achieving security for all the States of the region;" with the goal of establishing "normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace."

What about Israels internationally recognized borders with two countries that were signed After the armistice agreements?

Good question.

What about Palestine's 25 year old international borders in the same place?

That only exist in the fantasy world of some Palestinian author and your tiny brain. The treaties you both cite do not specifically say Palestine do they, they don't even imply Palestine. In matter of fact Palestine is omitted deliberately because it would cause problems for the Islamic nations created from the land of palestine

(COMMENT)

To this end, the "PLO Negotiations Affairs Department (NAD) was established in 1994 in Gaza in order to follow up on the implementation of the Interim Agreement signed between Israel and the PLO." The Palestinian position "IS" --->

2. Key Facts

The 1967 border is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the oPt.

A basic principle of international law is that no state may acquire territory by force. Israel has no valid claim to any part of the territory it occupied in 1967.

The international community does not recognize Israeli sovereignty over any part of the oPt, including East Jerusalem.​

3. International Law

Article 2 of the Charter of the United Nations (1945), requires that “[a]ll Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.”

UN Security Council Resolution 242 (1967) emphasizes “the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war” and calls for the “[w]ithdrawal of
Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict.”

The International Court of Justice, in its July 9, 2004 Advisory Opinion, concluded that Israel in breach of international law as an occupying power by building its Wall and settlements inside the oPt.​

4. Our Position

A number of border-related issues will need to be addressed during final status talks to achieve an end in conflict on the basis of the two-state solution, including:

Borders:

Israel has no valid claim to any part of the West Bank or Gaza Strip. However, in the interest of peace, we have been willing to discuss minor, equitable, and mutually-agreed territorial exchanges should we decide that it is in our interest to do so.​

SOURCE: Official Website PLO Negotiations Affairs Department (NAD)

This position conforms with the official position taken by the Summit-level Council of the League of Arab States Fourteenth regular session, Beirut, Lebanon, 27 and 28 March 2002.

Now, like our friend "PF Tinmore," there are radical factions inside the Palestinian cause that pursue another agenda and disagree with the PA/PLO, the NAD and Arab League position, and consider the HAMAS position (unrecognized by the greater communities) as the more authentic political position. This is a domestic discord that needs to be resolved internally - by them.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Rocco,

All of that smoke does not answer my question.

The 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, in two places, specifically stated that the land of the Negev was Palestine as of 1949. This was after resolution 181, after the foreigners declared the state of Israel inside Palestine, after the end of the mandate, and after the 1948 war.

Nobody has posted anything proving this to be incorrect.

Nobody has posted anything showing an agreement where Palestine ceded this land to Israel.

There is a lot of say so on this issue, but nothing to document this say so.

 

[toastman]

Rocco,

All of that smoke does not answer my question.

The 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, in two places, specifically stated that the land of the Negev was Palestine as of 1949. This was after resolution 181, after the foreigners declared the state of Israel inside Palestine, after the end of the mandate, and after the 1948 war.

Nobody has posted anything proving this to be incorrect.

Nobody has posted anything showing an agreement where Palestine ceded this land to Israel.

There is a lot of say so on this issue, but nothing to document this say so.

We have documents that shows Israel has internationally recognized borders with Egypt and Jordan. You cant argue those.

You keep saying that no one has posted any documents to prove you incorrect. The proble. Is, nothing you said is correct. The land of the Negev is Israels, as it is inside the green line. Second, the whole Palestine never ceded land to Israel is complete bs that YOU MADE UP. Where did you read that Palestine has to ced land to Israel? You keep itnoring this question.When did this become a real estate issue?
You are living on an alternate planet and you keep claiming youprpved this and that when in reality you proved nothing. Also you keep bringing up the same crP that has no merit at all.

 

[Phoenall]

Rocco,

All of that smoke does not answer my question.

The 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, in two places, specifically stated that the land of the Negev was Palestine as of 1949. This was after resolution 181, after the foreigners declared the state of Israel inside Palestine, after the end of the mandate, and after the 1948 war.

Nobody has posted anything proving this to be incorrect.

Nobody has posted anything showing an agreement where Palestine ceded this land to Israel.

There is a lot of say so on this issue, but nothing to document this say so.

Just as you have not produced one legal document that shows the nation of Palestine ever existed before 1988. The mandate made it clear that Palestine was not a bona fide nation and that the two groups were asked to form governments on the proposed partition of the land of Palestine. The Jews both indigenous and migrant formed a government and declared independence on May 14 1948 in accordance with International law. The arabs both indigenous and migrant declined the offer and chose war instead believing that any land they won would be spoils of war. The Palestinians did not own the land legally so did not need to cede it to anyone, as proven when Jordan stole their allocated land and annexed it as part of Jordan. The Palestinians were given Jordanian nationality and were happy with the situation. Then in 1967 Jordan lost its illegally gained land to Israel who turned it into a defensive barrier in line with the Geneva conventions. So as you can see at no time until 1988 was the land ever arab palestine

 

[toastman]

Also, im postind on my phone so excuse the typos

 

[P F Tinmore]

Rocco,

All of that smoke does not answer my question.

The 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, in two places, specifically stated that the land of the Negev was Palestine as of 1949. This was after resolution 181, after the foreigners declared the state of Israel inside Palestine, after the end of the mandate, and after the 1948 war.

Nobody has posted anything proving this to be incorrect.

Nobody has posted anything showing an agreement where Palestine ceded this land to Israel.

There is a lot of say so on this issue, but nothing to document this say so.

We have documents that shows Israel has internationally recognized borders with Egypt and Jordan. You cant argue those.

You keep saying that no one has posted any documents to prove you incorrect. The proble. Is, nothing you said is correct. The land of the Negev is Israels, as it is inside the green line. Second, the whole Palestine never ceded land to Israel is complete bs that YOU MADE UP. Where did you read that Palestine has to ced land to Israel? You keep itnoring this question.When did this become a real estate issue?
You are living on an alternate planet and you keep claiming youprpved this and that when in reality you proved nothing. Also you keep bringing up the same crP that has no merit at all.

Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by...

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949

The Parties to the present Agreement, responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948 calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine,...

2. This withdrawal shall begin on the day after that which follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

And here is your Green Line.

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

Where does it say that anything is Israel?

 

[toastman]

Rocco,

All of that smoke does not answer my question.

The 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, in two places, specifically stated that the land of the Negev was Palestine as of 1949. This was after resolution 181, after the foreigners declared the state of Israel inside Palestine, after the end of the mandate, and after the 1948 war.

Nobody has posted anything proving this to be incorrect.

Nobody has posted anything showing an agreement where Palestine ceded this land to Israel.

There is a lot of say so on this issue, but nothing to document this say so.

We have documents that shows Israel has internationally recognized borders with Egypt and Jordan. You cant argue those.

You keep saying that no one has posted any documents to prove you incorrect. The proble. Is, nothing you said is correct. The land of the Negev is Israels, as it is inside the green line. Second, the whole Palestine never ceded land to Israel is complete bs that YOU MADE UP. Where did you read that Palestine has to ced land to Israel? You keep itnoring this question.When did this become a real estate issue?
You are living on an alternate planet and you keep claiming youprpved this and that when in reality you proved nothing. Also you keep bringing up the same crP that has no merit at all.

The Parties to the present Agreement, responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948 calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine,...

2. This withdrawal shall begin on the day after that which follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

And here is your Green Line.

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

Where does it say that anything is Israel?

What does that hve to do with anything? The armistice agreements were between Israel and those four countries. By bringing up that Israel was not mentioned in this agreements what are you trying to say?

 

[P F Tinmore]

We have documents that shows Israel has internationally recognized borders with Egypt and Jordan. You cant argue those.

You keep saying that no one has posted any documents to prove you incorrect. The proble. Is, nothing you said is correct. The land of the Negev is Israels, as it is inside the green line. Second, the whole Palestine never ceded land to Israel is complete bs that YOU MADE UP. Where did you read that Palestine has to ced land to Israel? You keep itnoring this question.When did this become a real estate issue?
You are living on an alternate planet and you keep claiming youprpved this and that when in reality you proved nothing. Also you keep bringing up the same crP that has no merit at all.

And here is your Green Line.

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

Where does it say that anything is Israel?

What does that hve to do with anything? The armistice agreements were between Israel and those four countries. By bringing up that Israel was not mentioned in this agreements what are you trying to say?

It was Palestine in 1947 and it was still Palestine in 1949.

What part of that confuses you?

 

[toastman]

And here is your Green Line.



Where does it say that anything is Israel?

What does that hve to do with anything? The armistice agreements were between Israel and those four countries. By bringing up that Israel was not mentioned in this agreements what are you trying to say?

It was Palestine in 1947 and it was still Palestine in 1949.

What part of that confuses you?

What do you mean by it?
Also, Israels treaties were signed AFTER the Armistice agreements with Egypt and Jordan. As ive shown you, the UN brokered greaties outline Israels border witb both those countries.
I dont understand your obesession with the armistice agreements

 

[P F Tinmore]

What does that hve to do with anything? The armistice agreements were between Israel and those four countries. By bringing up that Israel was not mentioned in this agreements what are you trying to say?

It was Palestine in 1947 and it was still Palestine in 1949.

What part of that confuses you?

What do you mean by it?
Also, Israels treaties were signed AFTER the Armistice agreements with Egypt and Jordan. As ive shown you, the UN brokered greaties outline Israels border witb both those countries.
I dont understand your obesession with the armistice agreements

The war with countries outside of Palestine and agreements with countries outside of Palestine have no bearing on the status of Palestine.

 

[toastman]

It was Palestine in 1947 and it was still Palestine in 1949.

What part of that confuses you?

What do you mean by it?
Also, Israels treaties were signed AFTER the Armistice agreements with Egypt and Jordan. As ive shown you, the UN brokered greaties outline Israels border witb both those countries.
I dont understand your obesession with the armistice agreements

The war with countries outside of Palestine and agreements with countries outside of Palestine have no bearing on the status of Palestine.

Hou still didnt show me what you mean when you said IT was palestine in 1947 and 1949. Whats IT?
I dont know what all your blabbing bas to do with? If you dont recognize Israela existence, then just say so. But the fact of the matter is that the green line is used to seperate Israel and her neighbours, not Palestine and her neithbours.

 

[P F Tinmore]

What do you mean by it?
Also, Israels treaties were signed AFTER the Armistice agreements with Egypt and Jordan. As ive shown you, the UN brokered greaties outline Israels border witb both those countries.
I dont understand your obesession with the armistice agreements

The war with countries outside of Palestine and agreements with countries outside of Palestine have no bearing on the status of Palestine.

Hou still didnt show me what you mean when you said IT was palestine in 1947 and 1949. Whats IT?
I dont know what all your blabbing bas to do with? If you dont recognize Israela existence, then just say so. But the fact of the matter is that the green line is used to seperate Israel and her neighbours, not Palestine and her neithbours.

Do you really want to get confused?

The West Bank is occupied Palestinian territory. (OPT) The Green Line ('67 borders) is the de facto western border that is up for negotiations. What is the de jure western border?

 

[toastman]

You didnt answer my question

 

[P F Tinmore]

What do you mean by it?
Also, Israels treaties were signed AFTER the Armistice agreements with Egypt and Jordan. As ive shown you, the UN brokered greaties outline Israels border witb both those countries.
I dont understand your obesession with the armistice agreements

The war with countries outside of Palestine and agreements with countries outside of Palestine have no bearing on the status of Palestine.

Hou still didnt show me what you mean when you said IT was palestine in 1947 and 1949. Whats IT?
I dont know what all your blabbing bas to do with? If you dont recognize Israela existence, then just say so. But the fact of the matter is that the green line is used to seperate Israel and her neighbours, not Palestine and her neithbours.

That is correct. The Green Line is specifically not to be a border.

Palestine is separated from its neighbors by international borders.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You didnt answer my question

What is Palestine? Good question.

Post war treaties called it a state.

The Mandate called it a country.

The British called it a legal entity.

The UN just called it Palestine and referenced its international borders.

The Palestinians declared an independent state in 1948. As the native population inside a defined territory they had the right to do so. This was before it officially became occupied in 1949.

A state exists separate from recognition by other states. ~ Montevideo Conference

A state does not cease to exist when it is under occupation ~ Stimpson Doctrine

Everything I have seen says that it is a state under occupation.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Nobody has posted anything showing an agreement where Palestine ceded this land to Israel..."

What Palestinian government existed at the time the land was acquired, which could have ceded or chosen not to cede?

 

[toastman]

You didnt answer my question

What is Palestine? Good question.

Post war treaties called it a state.

The Mandate called it a country.

The British called it a legal entity.

The UN just called it Palestine and referenced its international borders.

The Palestinians declared an independent state in 1948. As the native population inside a defined territory they had the right to do so. This was before it officially became occupied in 1949.

A state exists separate from recognition by other states. ~ Montevideo Conference

A state does not cease to exist when it is under occupation ~ Stimpson Doctrine

Everything I have seen says that it is a state under occupation.

Maybe thats what YOU see (I doubt that though) but in reality all the land inside the green line is Israels land. Not Palestines. In fact even the PLO recognizes Israel insixe the green line.
Once again you keep bringing up these useless quotes or whag not and you manage to twist them into the conclusion that YOU want

 

[toastman]

And Palestine did NOT officially declare independence in 1948, as the land had already been declared independent by Israel. That is another one of your lies. Their official DOI took place in 1988. These facts are not up for debate. BTW where does it say that Palestine was occupied in 1949? What land was occupied and by whom?

 

[Phoenall]

Rocco,

All of that smoke does not answer my question.

The 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, in two places, specifically stated that the land of the Negev was Palestine as of 1949. This was after resolution 181, after the foreigners declared the state of Israel inside Palestine, after the end of the mandate, and after the 1948 war.

Nobody has posted anything proving this to be incorrect.

Nobody has posted anything showing an agreement where Palestine ceded this land to Israel.

There is a lot of say so on this issue, but nothing to document this say so.

We have documents that shows Israel has internationally recognized borders with Egypt and Jordan. You cant argue those.

You keep saying that no one has posted any documents to prove you incorrect. The proble. Is, nothing you said is correct. The land of the Negev is Israels, as it is inside the green line. Second, the whole Palestine never ceded land to Israel is complete bs that YOU MADE UP. Where did you read that Palestine has to ced land to Israel? You keep itnoring this question.When did this become a real estate issue?
You are living on an alternate planet and you keep claiming youprpved this and that when in reality you proved nothing. Also you keep bringing up the same crP that has no merit at all.

The Parties to the present Agreement, responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948 calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine,...

2. This withdrawal shall begin on the day after that which follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

And here is your Green Line.

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

Where does it say that anything is Israel?

In the UN charter and many of the UN resolutions, starting with 181 that was an either/or implementation.

 

[Phoenall]

And here is your Green Line.



Where does it say that anything is Israel?

What does that hve to do with anything? The armistice agreements were between Israel and those four countries. By bringing up that Israel was not mentioned in this agreements what are you trying to say?

It was Palestine in 1947 and it was still Palestine in 1949.

What part of that confuses you?

Correct Palestine the place, not Palestine the nation. What confuses you about that.
In 1919 Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon were also Palestine,