...I just realized Lincoln was the Hitler of the 19th century.

[JakeStarkey]

New England still had slaves well into the 1800s, check the census figures if you don't believe me. (Not very many I will admit, but they were there. And there were probably more that did not get counted in the census even after they were gone officially.) That throws your 18th century date argument out the window.

Imagine that, a party in power of Congress prohibiting the discussion of dissenting points of view through parliamentary tactics. Good thing nothing like that happens today.

The south was loosing its political clout and reacted like anyone who was loosing their grip on power would, by trying to hold on to it, they took the ball and went home. The result was a war which settled the issue of secession. SCOTUS merely affirmed that when they later issued the rubber stamp decision in White.

Please note that I have never defended slavery, and I personally think it is reprehensible. It is just that my personal reading and research has led me to believe that the war was not about slavery, it was just an issue that was timely for Lincoln, and one he, like any politician, capitalized on when it suited him. He deserves credit for what he did, but we need to remember that his motives were not necessarily noble.

As results are what really matter, give him the credit. But do not idolize him.

Slavery was abolished in New England. That means the few that were there, were not sactioned by the state. All what? 12 of them?

New Jersey (not NE) had like 18 in 1860 who were old woman servants who were [FONT=verdana, arial][FONT=verdana, arial]"apprentices for life," due to an arcane loophole in the law.

Regarding your continued obstinacy to deny the war was not primarily about slavery, one needs only to read the secession documents to understand: It was.

Peruse. No one could read these and not say, as Jeff Davis and VP Stephens did, it was the CORNERSTONE of the Confederacy:

[/FONT][/FONT]South Carolina Declarations of Causes of Seceding States American Civil War
Mississippi Declarations of Causes of Seceding States
Georgia Declarations of Causes of Seceding States Civil War
Texas Declarations of Causes of Seceding States
[FONT=verdana, arial][FONT=verdana, arial]

[/FONT][/FONT]

Nevertheless, there were slaves in NE into the mid 1800s, at least half a century after slavery was "officially" abolished. My opinion on the matter is that laws and intentions do not matter as much as facts, and the fact is that there were slaves in the northern states throughout the Civil War.

I did not say that slavery was a major issue in secession. I claimed, and still do, that it was not the primary cause of the war. There were slave states on both sides of the conflict, and until someone explains why people had to go to war with someone else to free slaves they owned I will not believe that slavery was why they went to war. That simply does not make sense to me, nor, I suspect, most people capable of critical thinking.

Your argument is that the North and West went to war to end slavery, and you are quite wrong.

No, the U.S. went to war against a rebellious section to preserve the union. The primary cause of the war was slavery. Every other cause is subsumed in slavery.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I will not believe that slavery was why they went to war.

The civil war started over the issue of states rights, not over slavery. Slavery only became an issue half way though the war. Lincoln needed something to substantiate the war, something more to justify the incredible carnage. This was a war that for the first time people could see, the advent of photography was coming into its own and brought the bloody mess up front and personal.

Lincoln was up for re-election with an unpopular war on his hands. The book "Uncle toms Cabin" was fresh in the minds of people and it gave a " greater cause" that northerners could understand and grasp. Lincoln needed a greater purpose for making this country into the UNITED STATS other then economical reasons.

Slavery was the main cause of the war. The primary issue was preservation of the union. I agree that Syrenn has it correct that Lincoln expanded the moral base to include emancipation.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The words of the Constitution itself, however, are evidence. And that has been posted in this thread multiple times I believe.

You refuse to accept the fact the Constitution does not support your belief. So what, you are wrong.

The States have all powers not expressly denied them or given to the Fed.

10th amendment

That is your interpretation, I get that.

 

[JakeStarkey]

<snip the nonsense>

Such anger and angst. So let's get you right. No slave is "better off" than a free man (100s of thousands escaped from slavery before the war; half a million ran away to union army lines during the war). The immediate issue was preservation of unionism, the primary cause was slavery. If you are imbued with racism, that's your tuff luck. Your "feelings" do not negate the realities of the war and its effects 150 years later.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Slavery is wrong. Don't believe? Check Exodus.

Slavery is still wrong. The corporations are making slaves of the middle class and poor.

 

[Dr Gregg]

the History Channel's "America The story of us" stressed it was largely about slavery and issues dealing with western expansion and which areas would be slave or no slave states. They also mentioned that once Lincoln got elected the south started talking about secession because they feared Lincoln would abolish slavery

 

[JakeStarkey]

Slavery is wrong. Don't believe? Check Exodus.

Slavery is still wrong. The corporations are making slaves of the middle class and poor.

The corporations have not succeeded yet. That is exactly the world The Rabbi and other corporatists wish to create, with them and the boards of directors leading it.

 

[Mr Natural]

Slavery is wrong. Don't believe? Check Exodus.

Slavery is still wrong. The corporations are making slaves of the middle class and poor.

The corporations have not succeeded yet. That is exactly the world The Rabbi and other corporatists wish to create, with them and the boards of directors leading it.

Ask a corporatist it's favorite wet dream come true is, and the answer would than likely be free labor.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Yes, to keep the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA united

What about keeping th British Empire united?

The United Kingdom is still the United Kingdom....

And the U.S. would still have been the U.S.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

the History Channel's "America The story of us" stressed it was largely about slavery and issues dealing with western expansion and which areas would be slave or no slave states. They also mentioned that once Lincoln got elected the south started talking about secession because they feared Lincoln would abolish slavery

Well if the History Channel said it...

 

[Dr Gregg]

the History Channel's "America The story of us" stressed it was largely about slavery and issues dealing with western expansion and which areas would be slave or no slave states. They also mentioned that once Lincoln got elected the south started talking about secession because they feared Lincoln would abolish slavery

Well if the History Channel said it...

as opposed to, "you said it".

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

the History Channel's "America The story of us" stressed it was largely about slavery and issues dealing with western expansion and which areas would be slave or no slave states. They also mentioned that once Lincoln got elected the south started talking about secession because they feared Lincoln would abolish slavery

Well if the History Channel said it...

as opposed to, "you said it".

I don't expect people to simply take my word for it, however. There's been ample evidence given in this thread to show that Lincoln did not fight the Civil War to free the slaves.

 

[JBeukema]

You posted:

"Negro Equality! Fudge!! How long in the government of a God, great enough to make and maintain this Universe, shall there continue knaves to vend, and fools to gulp, so low a piece of demagoguism as this?"
​

No one ever heard Lincoln utter these words. No transcript exists where these words are used by Lincoln.

Note for speech, ca. Sept 1859

The Yale book of quotations - Google Books


Negro equality! Fudge! [19th c. equivalent of...] How long, in the government of a God, great enough to make and maintain this Universe, shall there continue knaves to vend, and fools to gulp, so low a piece of demagougism [sp.-DS] as this. (v. 3, p. 399. Fragments: Notes for Speeches, Sept. 6, 1859)

The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln - Google Books

To the point though, another out of context quote. What was actually said:

In the course of his reply, Senator Douglas remarked, in substance, that he had always considered this government was made for the white people and not for the negroes. Why, in point of mere fact, I think so too. But in this remark of the Judge, there is a significance, which I think is the key to the great mistake (if there is any such mistake) (?)which he has made in this Nebraska measure. It shows that the Judge has no very vivid impression that the negro is a human; and consequently has no idea that there can be any moral question in legislating about him. In his view, the question of whether a new country shall be slave or free, is a matter of as utter indifference, as it is whether his neighbor shall plant his farm with tobacco, or stock it with horned cattle. Now, whether this view is right or wrong, it is very certain that the great mass of mankind take a totally different view. [They? Lincoln says nothing of agreeing with those of condemning slavery]They consider slavery a great moral wrong; and their feelings against it, is not evanescent, but eternal. It lies at the very foundation of their sense of justice; and it cannot be trifled with. It is a great and durable element of popular action, and, I think, no statesman can safely disregard it.[So he's advising him on the political ramifications of an unpopular platform while not actually disagreeing with him]
​

 

[JBeukema]

You refuse to accept the fact the Constitution does not support your belief. So what, you are wrong.

The States have all powers not expressly denied them or given to the Fed.

10th amendment

That is your interpretation, I get that.

It's not an interpretation.

It's a fact.

It's what is says in plain English.

 

[JBeukema]

Such anger and angst. So let's get you right. No slave is "better off" than a free man (100s of thousands escaped from slavery before the war; half a million ran away to union army lines during the war). The immediate issue was preservation of unionism, the primary cause was slavery. If you are imbued with racism, that's your tuff luck. Your "feelings" do not negate the realities of the war and its effects 150 years later.

it was your hero who said it

I just quoted your hero and showed his true colours

 

[JBeukema]

the History Channel's "America The story of us" stressed it was largely about slavery and issues dealing with western expansion and which areas would be slave or no slave states. They also mentioned that once Lincoln got elected the south started talking about secession because they feared Lincoln would abolish slavery

Like the Tea Parties/Confederates when Obama was elected?

 

[ABikerSailor]

Well if the History Channel said it...

as opposed to, "you said it".

I don't expect people to simply take my word for it, however. There's been ample evidence given in this thread to show that Lincoln did not fight the Civil War to free the slaves.

Yeah.......because the posters on USMB are much better qualified than the scholars and historians on the History Channel, right?

You really are a first water idiot.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The States have all powers not expressly denied them or given to the Fed.

10th amendment

That is your interpretation, I get that.

It's not an interpretation.

It's a fact.

It's what is says in plain English.

Talk to SCOTUS.

And please use Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln to give us all of the speech of a quote so that it can be put into context.

You are not doing that.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

as opposed to, "you said it".

I don't expect people to simply take my word for it, however. There's been ample evidence given in this thread to show that Lincoln did not fight the Civil War to free the slaves.

Yeah.......because the posters on USMB are much better qualified than the scholars and historians on the History Channel, right?

You really are a first water idiot.

The ever classic appeal to authority.

My assumption is that the History Channel had on scholars and historians who furthered the idea of the "official" version of history, and didn't even entertain the idea of conflicting ideas from scholars and historians who disagree. I also doubt anything that could even possibly paint Lincoln in a negative light was even mentioned, let alone discussed at any real length.

 

[JBeukema]

That is your interpretation, I get that.

It's not an interpretation.

It's a fact.

It's what is says in plain English.

Talk to SCOTUS.

And please use Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln to give us all of the speech of a quote so that it can be put into context.

You are not doing that.

What the **** does anything Lincoln ever said have to do with what's written in the Constitution?