I Don't Like The "Shift" In MLB....

[Tom Horn]

Looks like a rover in a damn beer league......offense is WAY down because the saber-weenies figured out how to ruin the most beautiful game on earth by using computer-models to design a defense. Yeah I know they've played the percentages for years....lefty vs. lefty, how long a pitcher takes to get the ball to home if you want to steal a bag. Swinging outfielders around to the hitter's pull side if he can turn and burn a fastball. Or do you play him to swing late and swing the outfielders the other way? I know. And that's fine and I don't even care if the infielders swing around to mass on one side of the infield or the other......I say an infielder can't have his feet on the outfield grass....can't touch it...has to stay in the dirt. If one strays too far back, that's a ball one to the hitter....if he keeps doing it, the guy walks...that will stop this.....

Too many hits that have always been hits are being taken away. I don't watch baseball to see a 2-1 game....soccer fans can have that crap. I want to see these boys hitting some gappers....nothing gets fans off their asses faster than a stand-up triple. OFFENSE....seat-busters, fans going home with HR balls...not this chickenshit stuff.

 

[Pogo]

At long last we agree on something.

I dunno about legislating it but yeah it is lame. But there's also a way around it. I still recall a great game against Sparky Anderson's Big Red Machine where they put the shift on for Richie Hebner, notorious lefty pull hitter. Hebner surveyed the field, laid down a bunt up the 3B line. Nobody there, no play. Second time up, Hebner surveyed the same shift, laid down a bunt up the 3B line. Nobody there, no play, 2 for 2. Third time up, shift again, Hebner surveyed the field, laid down a bunt up the 3B line. Nobody there, no play. 3 for 3.

Finally the fourth time up Sparky got it, went back to normal field, and Hebner promptly lined a single to right -- directly into the hole that the shift would have covered. 4 for 4. And that's how you make a defense shiftless.

 

[Pogo]

Ryan Howard's Career is Dead -- the Shift Killed it.

True enough but Howard should have taken the time to learn the strategy posted above. No he wasn't known as a bunter, and his running speed was just above a Zamboni, but hey, you want to hang around, you gotta learn the counter-strategy. You place a ball where no fielder exists, and you can take a bus to first base.

 

[Tom Horn]

At long last we agree on something.

I dunno about legislating it but yeah it is lame. But there's also a way around it. I still recall a great game against Sparky Anderson's Big Red Machine where they put the shift on for Richie Hebner, notorious lefty pull hitter. Hebner surveyed the field, laid down a bunt up the 3B line. Nobody there, no play. Second time up, Hebner surveyed the same shift, laid down a bunt up the 3B line. Nobody there, no play, 2 for 2. Third time up, shift again, Hebner surveyed the field, laid down a bunt up the 3B line. Nobody there, no play. 3 for 3.

Finally the fourth time up Sparky got it, went back to normal field, and Hebner promptly lined a single to right -- directly into the hole that the shift would have covered. 4 for 4. And that's how you make a defense shiftless.

Agreed. My beef is they shift on Victor Martinez and he's so slow they can throw him out at first from right field. He's the Tiger's DH and clean-up hitter so the shift blows a hole in the middle of the order. He laid down the first bunt in his career a couple weeks back and the crowd about lost their mind cheering. Both Sparky and Hebner ended up in Detroit later on. I think they should just make a rule that says an infielder can't stand on the outfield grass. It not only sucks but violates the infield-fly rule.

 

[rightwinger]

Looks like a rover in a damn beer league......offense is WAY down because the saber-weenies figured out how to ruin the most beautiful game on earth by using computer-models to design a defense. Yeah I know they've played the percentages for years....lefty vs. lefty, how long a pitcher takes to get the ball to home if you want to steal a bag. Swinging outfielders around to the hitter's pull side if he can turn and burn a fastball. Or do you play him to swing late and swing the outfielders the other way? I know. And that's fine and I don't even care if the infielders swing around to mass on one side of the infield or the other......I say an infielder can't have his feet on the outfield grass....can't touch it...has to stay in the dirt. If one strays too far back, that's a ball one to the hitter....if he keeps doing it, the guy walks...that will stop this.....

Too many hits that have always been hits are being taken away. I don't watch baseball to see a 2-1 game....soccer fans can have that crap. I want to see these boys hitting some gappers....nothing gets fans off their asses faster than a stand-up triple. OFFENSE....seat-busters, fans going home with HR balls...not this chickenshit stuff.

Helps the players who are able to hit to all fields

If you can be stymied by a shift.....maybe you don't belong in the majors

 

[rightwinger]

 

[Tom Horn]

Helps the players who are able to hit to all fields

If you can be stymied by a shift.....maybe you don't belong in the majors

They don't shift on guys who hit to all fields, ala Miguel Cabrera. What it does is force power hitters into swinging late into the opposite-field which robs their power and ability to drive in runs. And it's showing up in the numbers which affects everything from attendance to future contracts. MLB did without this hooey for a hundred years and they need to go back to keeping the infielders in the infield...that's why there's a band of dirt around the horn.

 

[Pogo]

That was always the way I hit, even before I ever heard this quote.

At least, it's what I do from the right side. From the left side I'm a completely different hitter. I pull everything and have WAY more power. Righthanded, it's all bat control and line drives.

Still, if I came up lefty and they put a shift on, I'd just poke it toward the deserted vicinity of third base, even if it had to be a bunt. Because a single is always more productive than an out.

 

[rightwinger]

Helps the players who are able to hit to all fields

If you can be stymied by a shift.....maybe you don't belong in the majors

They don't shift on guys who hit to all fields, ala Miguel Cabrera. What it does is force power hitters into swinging late into the opposite-field which robs their power and ability to drive in runs. And it's showing up in the numbers which affects everything from attendance to future contracts. MLB did without this hooey for a hundred years and they need to go back to keeping the infielders in the infield...that's why there's a band of dirt around the horn.

If you have a weakness in your hitting don't blame the other team for exploiting it
If you can't hit a high fastball or curve.....what do you think you will see
Ever see the Ted Williams shift?

 

[Tom Horn]

If you have a weakness in your hitting don't blame the other team for exploiting it
If you can't hit a high fastball or curve.....what do you think you will see
Ever see the Ted Williams shift?

As usual you got nothing and don't seem capable of either understanding or remembering what I've already written. There isn't a hitter in MLB who can't hit a fastball...none. It's the most basic requirement of making it to the Show. Scouting reports are done on a weekly basis....ah what the hell....why should I tell your simple ass anything....I don't care what you think about this or anything else.

 

[Tom Horn]

That was always the way I hit, even before I ever heard this quote.

At least, it's what I do from the right side. From the left side I'm a completely different hitter. I pull everything and have WAY more power. Righthanded, it's all bat control and line drives.

Still, if I came up lefty and they put a shift on, I'd just poke it toward the deserted vicinity of third base, even if it had to be a bunt. Because a single is always more productive than an out.

I was the same way...the reason you have more power batting lefty is your right arm is stronger...the rear arm provides direction and a small amount of power but it's the front arm that provides most of the power. In Pony League I decided to bat lefty for the first time in a game and got a little nervous when the first pitch came up and in under my chin. I had no idea how to get out the way on that side of the plate and realized I could dive right into the ball. But I couldn't think about that in the box. So the next pitch came in around my knees, a pitch I would rarely swing at being a RH high-ball hitter by nature. I golfed that pitch over the RF fence and hit a parent's car square on the hood. First HR I'd ever hit so I sprinted around the bases instead of taking it all in with a slow trot. The fellas were pretty much in awe of my new-found power and I switched to lefty through Colt League and even got a look from a Tigers scout. Ended up going into the Army and would never patrol Kaline's Corner in Tiger Stadium.

 

[rightwinger]

If you have a weakness in your hitting don't blame the other team for exploiting it
If you can't hit a high fastball or curve.....what do you think you will see
Ever see the Ted Williams shift?

As usual you got nothing and don't seem capable of either understanding or remembering what I've already written. There isn't a hitter in MLB who can't hit a fastball...none. It's the most basic requirement of making it to the Show. Scouting reports are done on a weekly basis....ah what the hell....why should I tell your simple ass anything....I don't care what you think about this or anything else.

And if the scout says you can't hit to left field.....where do you think the fielders wil be?

If you are defeated with the shift, you will be replaced by someone who can hit to all fields. Why do you deserve a spot on the roster if you are one dimensional?

 

[Pogo]

That was always the way I hit, even before I ever heard this quote.

At least, it's what I do from the right side. From the left side I'm a completely different hitter. I pull everything and have WAY more power. Righthanded, it's all bat control and line drives.

Still, if I came up lefty and they put a shift on, I'd just poke it toward the deserted vicinity of third base, even if it had to be a bunt. Because a single is always more productive than an out.

I was the same way...the reason you have more power batting lefty is your right arm is stronger...the rear arm provides direction and a small amount of power but it's the front arm that provides the power.

I think that was my cousin's theory (about the arms). Not sure I buy it. Batting left, it's your left arm pushing and the right pulling. Not sure how you get more power out of a front arm pulling. But the other thing is bat control --- righthanded I can place the ball wherever I want, lefthanded I can't do it at all. That would indicate the trailing (pushing) arm is providing the aim so if one is righthanded that's where the control is.

But all of this is arms only and ignoring the rest of the body. It's also possible that when I (or you) turned around we changed our stance and/or stride -- which I think is where most of the power is.

In Pony League I decided to bat lefty for the first time in a game and got a little nervous when the first pitch came up and in under my chin. I had no idea how to get out the way on that side of the plate and realized I could dive right into the ball. But I couldn't think about that in the box. So the next pitch came in around my knees, a pitch I would rarely swing at being a high-ball hitter by nature. I golfed that pitch over the RF fence and hit a parent's car square on the hood. First HR I'd ever hit so I sprinted around the bases instead of taking it all in with a slow trot. The fellas were pretty much in awe of my new-found power and I switched to lefty through Colt League and even got a look from a Tigers scout. Ended up going into the Army and would never patrol Kaline's Corner in Tiger Stadium.

Good story.

I recall going to a Little League game one day after a rain had passed. Our field was washed out and unplayable so we moved to a bigger one for older kids (I was maybe 11, 12). Walking to the bigger field one of the adults looked at the distant fence and said, "well, nobody's gonna hit one out of this field". Of course being boys we all took that as a challenge.

First time through we all tried, we all failed. Then my second time up I worked the count and got my pitch. Looked like a basketball. Just hanging there with a "hit me" sign. I put my best stroke on it (righthanded), got the sweet spot and conNECted. kaBANG. "Be cool", I told myself as a collective gasp went up from both spectators, "make this look like it happens all the time. Look bored". I trotted to first base nonchalantly, making sure to tag the base. I turned the corner toward second and only then looked up to admire my rocket launch sailing away ------ and bouncing off the top of the right-centerfield wall into the glove of the centerfielder who turrned and threw a strike to second base where I was out by ten feet.

Learned me a lesson that day -- "never assume".

 

[rightwinger]

If a pitcher has a weakness, he doesn't cut it in the league
Same goes for a hitter

 

[Tom Horn]

Good story.

I recall going to a Little League game one day after a rain had passed. Our field was washed out and unplayable so we moved to a bigger one for older kids (I was maybe 11, 12). Walking to the bigger field one of the adults looked at the distant fence and said, "well, nobody's gonna hit one out of this field". Of course being boys we all took that as a challenge.

First time through we all tried, we all failed. Then my second time up I worked the count and got my pitch. Looked like a basketball. Just hanging there with a "hit me" sign. I put my best stroke on it (righthanded), got the sweet spot and conNECted. kaBANG. "Be cool", I told myself as a collective gasp went up from both spectators, "make this look like it happens all the time. Look bored". I trotted to first base nonchalantly, making sure to tag the base. I turned the corner toward second and only then looked up to admire my rocket launch sailing away ------ and bouncing off the top of the right-centerfield wall into the glove of the centerfielder who turrned and threw a strike to second base where I was out by ten feet.

Learned me a lesson that day -- "never assume".

The lead arm straightens before the back arm does so that's the majority of the arm power. But it's the hip opening up than should drag both arms through the swing. Same in all sports from baseball to the martial arts...the hip brings the legs into the equation and produces power. The front arm theory is proven true when you hear about a guy hitting one out one-handed. Kirk Gibson was an "arms hitter" and that HR in the '88 World Series was pretty much a one-armer while the one he hit for Detroit in the 1984 World Series was almost pure form. I equate it to a backhand in tennis being weaker because the hips don't open like they do with a forehand unless it's a two-hand backhand but that's a girl move. In the Karate world, we teach that a punch comes as much from the ass and leg muscles as it does from the arm, which is why the power is so devastating compared to a boxing punch. Key to all this is balance. An undisciplined weight-transfer will but a hop in the swing-plane at best and spin you around worst-case. And then there's hand-eye coordination.

I remember a still shot of Pete Incavilia swinging looking straight up in the sky. Sparky explained that Pete was swinging way too hard...no shit, eh? Bottom line? Hitting a baseball with late-break on it with a round stick only slightly larger than the ball is the hardest thing there is in sports. A great hitter only gets a hit a third of the time so it's a game about failure and how you cope with failure. My worst moment was our opening day playing in LF and the hitter struck it good....CRACK! I bent over to glove it looking at him instead of the ball... short-hopped me right between my feet....I will always remember my face burning red with embarrassment as I ran back to the fence to retrieve that ball. The guy was obviously trying for a double (or 2 base error) and I had only an instant to redeem myself. While not a great hitter, I was pretty fast and had a great arm....I nailed his ass at second with a perfect one-hopper and was enough of a showman to tip my cap to the applause from our fans.

My brother would hit each other fly balls for hours at a local playground and out of boredom we'd hotdog with behind the back catches, Willy Mays over the head catches, and last-second matador swipe-catches...hilarious stuff I never could try in a game because you didn't show up the other team. I did climb a chain-link fence to catch a ball while our CFer was knocking his front teeth out on the top rail of the fence. I actually landed on top of the fence but to showboat, dropped onto my back on a car hood. Problem was that pissed off the umpire and he signaled HOME RUN. Donnie is laying at the base of the fence bleeding, I'm laying on the hood of a car, he hitter is rounding the bases with his fist in the air, and my manager is crawling up the umpire's ass over the call. Needless to say, I got read the riot act back in the dugout and damn near got kicked off the team.

 

[Cellblock2429]

Looks like a rover in a damn beer league......offense is WAY down because the saber-weenies figured out how to ruin the most beautiful game on earth by using computer-models to design a defense. Yeah I know they've played the percentages for years....lefty vs. lefty, how long a pitcher takes to get the ball to home if you want to steal a bag. Swinging outfielders around to the hitter's pull side if he can turn and burn a fastball. Or do you play him to swing late and swing the outfielders the other way? I know. And that's fine and I don't even care if the infielders swing around to mass on one side of the infield or the other......I say an infielder can't have his feet on the outfield grass....can't touch it...has to stay in the dirt. If one strays too far back, that's a ball one to the hitter....if he keeps doing it, the guy walks...that will stop this.....

Too many hits that have always been hits are being taken away. I don't watch baseball to see a 2-1 game....soccer fans can have that crap. I want to see these boys hitting some gappers....nothing gets fans off their asses faster than a stand-up triple. OFFENSE....seat-busters, fans going home with HR balls...not this chickenshit stuff.

/---- To each his own. I stopped following baseball when Mickey Mantel retired. Without the Mick, what's the point?


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

 

[rightwinger]

The bunt is a lost art

Too many major league players look ridiculous when they try to lay down a bunt. A simple bunt will defeat the shift but macho players try to slug their way through a shift

 

[Papageorgio]

Games evolve and change, the NFL went from mainly run league to a passing league, the NBA went from an inside power game to a outside shooting game. Baseball will adjust, it takes time but for every strategy there is a counter strategy.

 

[martybegan]

At long last we agree on something.

I dunno about legislating it but yeah it is lame. But there's also a way around it. I still recall a great game against Sparky Anderson's Big Red Machine where they put the shift on for Richie Hebner, notorious lefty pull hitter. Hebner surveyed the field, laid down a bunt up the 3B line. Nobody there, no play. Second time up, Hebner surveyed the same shift, laid down a bunt up the 3B line. Nobody there, no play, 2 for 2. Third time up, shift again, Hebner surveyed the field, laid down a bunt up the 3B line. Nobody there, no play. 3 for 3.

Finally the fourth time up Sparky got it, went back to normal field, and Hebner promptly lined a single to right -- directly into the hole that the shift would have covered. 4 for 4. And that's how you make a defense shiftless.

The problem is current baseball metrics probably dictate that in the long run giving up the dinky single leads to less runs produced than the person swinging away into thew shift.

I do agree, however, that some team should at least TRY the bloop through the gap method to see how other teams react to it.

 

[Pogo]

At long last we agree on something.

I dunno about legislating it but yeah it is lame. But there's also a way around it. I still recall a great game against Sparky Anderson's Big Red Machine where they put the shift on for Richie Hebner, notorious lefty pull hitter. Hebner surveyed the field, laid down a bunt up the 3B line. Nobody there, no play. Second time up, Hebner surveyed the same shift, laid down a bunt up the 3B line. Nobody there, no play, 2 for 2. Third time up, shift again, Hebner surveyed the field, laid down a bunt up the 3B line. Nobody there, no play. 3 for 3.

Finally the fourth time up Sparky got it, went back to normal field, and Hebner promptly lined a single to right -- directly into the hole that the shift would have covered. 4 for 4. And that's how you make a defense shiftless.

The problem is current baseball metrics probably dictate that in the long run giving up the dinky single leads to less runs produced than the person swinging away into thew shift.

I do agree, however, that some team should at least TRY the bloop through the gap method to see how other teams react to it.

Maybe, maybe not. Laying down a bunt where no fielders exist may be just a single but at the same time it's not-an-out, and that gives one more batter a shot, so on that basis alone I'd think the odds favor the offense.

In the long term though, if a Ryan Howard somehow (I know it's hard to picture) starts bunting up the 3B line, it's eventually gonna force the defense to assign somebody there. Now if I were the defense and committed to the shift I guess I'd have my 3B stay where he is and shift the other three, leaving an opposite-field gap, and take my chances, but at least there's somebody to handle the bunt.