I Can't Imagine a God...

[AVG-JOE]

God defines sins.

The only thing left then is to define God, eh?

If your God is The God of Abraham, as defined in The Torah, The New Testament and/or The Qur'an, He is a God limited by those stories because it's the miracles described in those stories that justify His existence and enforce His Divine right to command worship.

The age of the miraculous coming to an end before the invention of the camera as part of some 'Godly Plan' is just too fucking convenient, in my humble opinion.

`​

​

 

[hobelim]

If your God is The God of Abraham, as defined in The Torah, The New Testament and/or The Qur'an, He is a God limited by those stories because it's the miracles described in those stories that justify His existence and enforce His Divine right to command worship.

The age of the miraculous coming to an end before the invention of the camera as part of some 'Godly Plan' is just too fucking convenient, in my humble opinion.

An excellent point except that miracles of the type described in the bible have not come to an end, you just have been misled to believe that miracles are supernatural demonstrations of divine power over reality when the truth is a miracle, like a person rising from the dead, is a metaphor for a person escaping from being brainwashed by some religious cult and returning to a rational and sober state of mind, which if you have ever tried to reason with such a person, certainly qualifies as a miracle yet still happens all the time in a way that conforms to and can be confirmed by reality. many people who have returned from the death of being entombed alive by irrational religious beliefs and degrading practices have already appeared on camera. You just haven't made the realization that the miracles in the bible like the blind seeing or the dead returning to life and the demon possessed retuning to sanity are metaphors for actual events that you have witnessed all of your life and may have even happened to you.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear MaxGrit do you believe the road to hell is paved with unforgiveness?
What do you call the factor that starts someone dividing or rebelling.

One friend calls it fear that first clouds judgment and starts conditioned behavior.
I focus on issues that people have trouble forgiving, where resolving and releasing those
opens them up to receive what they were blocking out.

What do you call the key issue, if you are going to explain it in secular terms?
Another atheist I discussed this with online didn't understand the big deal about sin
but TOTALLY understood that EGO is what causes all human suffering.

What about EGO is that a good explanation as to what causes the downfall of humanity
that leads down the path towards hell

All human are born with sin nature and all are sinners. Therefore, humans go to Hell due to their sins. This is the default. All men are dead in spirit. God's grace alone saves those whom He elected before the foundation of the world.

OK and isn't the ability to let God's love and grace enter into us, our lives and relationships
Dependent on Forgiveness and willingness to ask God for help to forgive the sins/conditions that separate us and divide us.

Do you agree that where we agree to forgive and love each other,
we are opening up ourselves and our relations to receive in God's grace through Christ Jesus.

Do you agree that is the step in salvation where it starts
by people RECEIVING and not rejecting each other as children of God.

God's grace is irresistible.

You talk of forgiveness and fear because you lack understanding of how saints think. Saints love God with all their heart. Love for others and self derives from the love of God.

I base what I say on what I know about myself. I forgive everyone automatically. I have no fear. I don't hate anyone. I love all sinners yet I hate their sins.

Why is it necessary to attach "hate" to the sins.
Can't we address sins for the sake of correction and healing and resolving thier causes?

God hate sins.

MaxGrit why this focus on hate and not forgiveness.
Hating is not enough to address and cure the cause of someone to sin.
But Forgiveness makes it safe to address and encourages honesty in addressing and correcting the fault.
Just hating it makes people more defensive in hiding it.

The Bible says clearly that where we forgive others,
God forgives us.

So isn't that supposed to be the focus of Christian faith.
Anyone can hate sin, even the heathen and material people can hate what causes suffering.
But who has faith that God forgives and corrects these things
if we forgive and ask God's help. isn't that more important than the hate.

 

[emilynghiem]

What causes you to hate the only people that love you unconditionally?

My parents love me unconditionally. Even they have conditions actually.

Maybe you christians need to worry about being lovable not loving others.

Real Christians aren't suppose to worry about those things. I'm not a hypocrite and I tell people the same things as I tell my family. For example, I tell my Dad, who is an atheist, that he's going to go to Hell without faith in Jesus Christ. I wouldn't bother if I didn't love him. It's frustrating because he's very stubborn and simply doesn't believe in God. I don't know why he doesn't. I know he's going to Hell for sure without Jesus. God already twice saved his life last couple years. My prayers were answered before I knew to pray them, which was awesome. I pray that God will have mercy on my dad and grant him salvation from Hell by giving him faith in Jesus Christ. Everything is in God's hand.

Father, I pray for your blessing. Let your will be done, Father, and not mine.

Hi MaxGrit

Two of my friends who are atheist just don't connect or relate to a "personified" God. That's not how they experience God.
They are secular minded, and experience God in terms of truth and compassion for others. These two I met as longtime leaders in the Peace and Justice community in Houston. Well guess what, Justice and Peace is Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit. As long as they live by Restorative Justice, that is the spirit of Jesus working through them in an impersonal way.
Just like Wisdom is an expression of God's spirit but is impersonal.

As long as they forgive differences and receive others who come in the name of Jesus, and they don't REJECT such people, then they at least have THAT step in salvation, where anyone who receives a child who comes in Jesus name
receives the Son, and who receives the Son receives the Father.

So as long as your father accepts you as a child of God in Jesus name, that is a key step, that connection and it just needs to be strengthened where there is no rejection or division interfering with that relationship in Christ.

I have another atheist friend who just doesn't like theists and Christians, and he knows this interferes with his ability to be open objective and neutral. He also sees the world in terms of natural approaches like Buddhism that make sense to him and motivate him to know and understand what to do and what to change in himself. He doesn't accept my explanation that Christ Jesus fulfills this process of self-awareness, self-realization ability to solve problems.

But he is honest that he just doesn't see the world in the terms and ways that Christians use. He studied and even preached the Bible, and knows all the wrong and right interpretations that denominations argue over, and just doesn't relate to that approach of sharing and rebuking other fellow believers by the Bible. He doesn't like or relate to the people who follow that, and prefers an inward approach that Buddhism helps him with, to work on clearing out the thoughts in his own mind.

Hahah, don't worry about the relationship between me and my dad. He knows I warn him about Hell because I love him. I also told my mom that she's going to Hell if she dies without Jesus Christ. I just called her and told her to watch the video about Hell. She was grateful that I love her and want her to be well.

Hell is real. Please warn others about Hell.

Only God is good. All men are sinners and deserving of Hell. You didn't learn much as a fake Christian for 30 years.

I didn't buy it. I'm not any more a sinner than you. In fact I'm better than you because I don't think I get a free pass because I believe a nursery rhyme.

I'm a terrible sinner. It's very likely that you're a much better person compare to me. However, God demands perfection from his creatures. Therefore, you're required to be perfect as a duty to God. Therefore, if you sin just once, there's no way to make up for your sins by good works.

Christians get to commit adultery in their hearts and still go to heaven. You guys even get to murder. How many christian woman have gotten abortions and were very sad and sorry about it and ask god for forviveness and so christians even think they can murder their own babies and still go to heaven? What a brilliant cult story.

At least you recognize that abortion is murder. That's a start.

But more to your point. Any human on earth can be forgiven of their sins and go to heaven. All he/she needs to do is repent of their sin with a contrite heart and ask Christ to forgive them of their sin. None are without sin! That's true of you, me, the President, the Pope, and the ice cream man. All fall short of the glory of God. It's for that reason that God sent His Son to sacrifice Himself for the sins of the world. He suffered the penalty for you and me. So ... by the free gift of grace are we saved -- not by our own works but by faith in Him and His shed blood.

What a hoot. So a christian can murder as long as they are sorry after. Such bs.

Nope sealybobo this is a terrible misconception about forgiveness.

Just because the teacher forgives the fact the students make errors in math,
and these can be corrected, doesn't mean you can go around making all the errors you want to
since these are forgivable. You still have to learn your math enough to avoid the errors,
and the best way is to correct the errors you make so you learn from them.

In general, forgiveness is on the emotional and spiritual level where we let go of
toxic resentment and negative energy attached to the wrong. The wrongs are
still wrong and need to be corrected, and may even require restitution.
so forgiveness does not magically erase the consequences.
it just means not holding a grudge against someone emotionally and seeking retribution to injure
someone for causing injury.

the wrongs especially between neighbors and governed under natural laws or secular/civil laws
must still be addressed on that level. Forgiveness means just minus the negative emotions
attached that don't help the justice and correction process, but make it harder on the victims to carry that burden.
justice can still be served, and is often better worked out without those negative emotions and division attached to the wrongs.

 

[emilynghiem]

God defines sins.

The only thing left then is to define God, eh?

If your God is The God of Abraham, as defined in The Torah, The New Testament and/or The Qur'an, He is a God limited by those stories because it's the miracles described in those stories that justify His existence and enforce His Divine right to command worship.

The age of the miraculous coming to an end before the invention of the camera as part of some 'Godly Plan' is just too fucking convenient, in my humble opinion.

`​

​

???? AVG-JOE I see you trying to limit God to what you see here,
in order to set up a straw man and say this God is contradictory.

You are right, by the way you set it up to be conflicting. Sure.

So quit setting it up that way.

And please quit blaming other people for setting it up that way
if you are the one doing it. nobody is forcing you to interpret God in
a limited or conflicting way, unless you are TRYING to cling to a contradiction to prove your point. Many people I know have no trouble reconciling views of God, even using the Bible,
but if it doesn't work for you then don't use it that way.

If I agree with your point will you stop and try a different way?
I agree that if YOU keep limiting God to this way, which is not universal,
that can't be the whole of God. Of course it can't especially where God represents the infinite.

So let's drop this way if we agree it is too limiting and God must be greater.

What about God as LIFE or God as NATURE. do you agree that definition of God would be closer to representing forces of life on a universal level?

 

[AVG-JOE]

If your God is The God of Abraham, as defined in The Torah, The New Testament and/or The Qur'an, He is a God limited by those stories because it's the miracles described in those stories that justify His existence and enforce His Divine right to command worship.

The age of the miraculous coming to an end before the invention of the camera as part of some 'Godly Plan' is just too fucking convenient, in my humble opinion.

An excellent point except that miracles of the type described in the bible have not come to an end, you just have been misled to believe that miracles are supernatural demonstrations of divine power over reality when the truth is a miracle, like a person rising from the dead, is a metaphor for a person escaping from being brainwashed by some religious cult and returning to a rational and sober state of mind, which if you have ever tried to reason with such a person, certainly qualifies as a miracle yet still happens all the time in a way that conforms to and can be confirmed by reality. many people who have returned from the death of being entombed alive by irrational religious beliefs and degrading practices have already appeared on camera. You just haven't made the realization that the miracles in the bible like the blind seeing or the dead returning to life and the demon possessed retuning to sanity are metaphors for actual events that you have witnessed all of your life and may have even happened to you.

The "miraculous" way that some kid didn't die in December in no way validates The God of Abraham, as defined in The Torah, The New Testament and/or The Qur'an.

Tell you what... The God of Abraham will own my ass through faith in Jesus Christ the minute I tune in to CNN and see A pillar of fire blocking a gay wedding.

`​

 

[Delta4Embassy]

I can't imagine a god who has a favourite religion.

Human species has created some 25,000 discrete religious systems and countless more "denominations." If God has a favourite, why do we have so many choices? Which religion is the right one? And is our right religion the one and only true religion for the entire universe? Isn't that perhaps a tad arrogant?

 

[hobelim]

The "miraculous" way that some kid didn't die in December in no way validates The God of Abraham, as defined in The Torah, The New Testament and/or The Qur'an.......

Tell you what... The God of Abraham will own my ass through faith in Jesus Christ the minute I tune in to CNN and see A pillar of fire blocking a gay wedding.

I agree. Someone not dying in December is not a validation of any god or so called holy book. But you seemed to have missed my point about the subject of the 'miraculous' which in the NT is more accurately translated as 'signs', signs that Jesus was the man they were hoping that God would raise up to feed them the teaching that they hungered for during a time of violent oppression, corruption and perversity where the present was unbearable the future was terrifying and signs of a loving and benevolent God were nowhere to be found, till Jesus came.

Every single miracle can be interpreted in a way that conforms to reality, does not require the suspension of disbelief, and helps bring into focus the God of Abraham that you, for some mysterious reason, have come to believe hates gays.

BTW, they followed a pillar of clouds by day and a pillar of fire by night. Without getting into the deeper implications, obviously an erupting volcano could easily account for what saw and used like a compass as a fixed point on the horizon to make clear the way to follow..

 

[AVG-JOE]

God defines sins.

The only thing left then is to define God, eh?

If your God is The God of Abraham, as defined in The Torah, The New Testament and/or The Qur'an, He is a God limited by those stories because it's the miracles described in those stories that justify His existence and enforce His Divine right to command worship.

The age of the miraculous coming to an end before the invention of the camera as part of some 'Godly Plan' is just too fucking convenient, in my humble opinion.

`​

​

???? AVG-JOE I see you trying to limit God to what you see here,
in order to set up a straw man and say this God is contradictory.

You are right, by the way you set it up to be conflicting. Sure.

So quit setting it up that way.

And please quit blaming other people for setting it up that way
if you are the one doing it. nobody is forcing you to interpret God in
a limited or conflicting way, unless you are TRYING to cling to a contradiction to prove your point. Many people I know have no trouble reconciling views of God, even using the Bible,
but if it doesn't work for you then don't use it that way.

If I agree with your point will you stop and try a different way?
I agree that if YOU keep limiting God to this way, which is not universal,
that can't be the whole of God. Of course it can't especially where God represents the infinite.

So let's drop this way if we agree it is too limiting and God must be greater.

What about God as LIFE or God as NATURE. do you agree that definition of God would be closer to representing forces of life on a universal level?

Emily, it's not God that I find limited or limiting... it's the widespread and stubborn adherence to one or more of the ancient stories as 'sacred', and therefore the last word on God that I find limiting. History has a place in the evolution of humanity, but forward and head-long into The Future is the direction that Monkeys are compelled up The Timeline.

In my humble opinion, if God is, She's way bigger than all of the ancient stories, let alone any one or two of them.

God is neither limited nor limiting, but the widespread worship of ancient books has us hamstrung as a species evolving on the edge of true, survival-of-the-species, Sentience.

 

[Roadrunner]

I can't imagine a God so small that He could be contained in The Torah, The New Testament AND The Koran as the last Word on God, let alone any one of the three as a stand alone.

I must be a Monkey ahead of my Time.

​

I can't imagine an AVG-JOE.

Seriously, I can't imagine anyone being an internet mod.

Baffling!

 

[AVG-JOE]

I can't imagine an AVG-JOE.

Seriously, I can't imagine anyone being an internet mod.

Baffling!

Mission Accomplished!

​

 

[Delta4Embassy]

I can't imagine a god who, if it actually existed, would be the only such god that exists. Once we open the door to a proper god-being's existence, aren't we saying there's more than 1?

That the Jewish Tanach makes mention of other gods doesn't help.

 

[AVG-JOE]

 

[sealybobo]

God defines sins.

The only thing left then is to define God, eh?

If your God is The God of Abraham, as defined in The Torah, The New Testament and/or The Qur'an, He is a God limited by those stories because it's the miracles described in those stories that justify His existence and enforce His Divine right to command worship.

The age of the miraculous coming to an end before the invention of the camera as part of some 'Godly Plan' is just too fucking convenient, in my humble opinion.

`​

​

???? AVG-JOE I see you trying to limit God to what you see here,
in order to set up a straw man and say this God is contradictory.

You are right, by the way you set it up to be conflicting. Sure.

So quit setting it up that way.

And please quit blaming other people for setting it up that way
if you are the one doing it. nobody is forcing you to interpret God in
a limited or conflicting way, unless you are TRYING to cling to a contradiction to prove your point. Many people I know have no trouble reconciling views of God, even using the Bible,
but if it doesn't work for you then don't use it that way.

If I agree with your point will you stop and try a different way?
I agree that if YOU keep limiting God to this way, which is not universal,
that can't be the whole of God. Of course it can't especially where God represents the infinite.

So let's drop this way if we agree it is too limiting and God must be greater.

What about God as LIFE or God as NATURE. do you agree that definition of God would be closer to representing forces of life on a universal level?

Emily, it's not God that I find limited or limiting... it's the widespread and stubborn adherence to one or more of the ancient stories as 'sacred', and therefore the last word on God that I find limiting. History has a place in the evolution of humanity, but forward and head-long into The Future is the direction that Monkeys are compelled up The Timeline.

In my humble opinion, if God is, She's way bigger than all of the ancient stories, let alone any one or two of them.

God is neither limited nor limiting, but the widespread worship of ancient books has us hamstrung as a species evolving on the edge of true, survival-of-the-species, Sentience.

But then they would have to admit their ancient stories were all made up.

I listened to a debate last night. The athiest was

God defines sins.

The only thing left then is to define God, eh?

If your God is The God of Abraham, as defined in The Torah, The New Testament and/or The Qur'an, He is a God limited by those stories because it's the miracles described in those stories that justify His existence and enforce His Divine right to command worship.

The age of the miraculous coming to an end before the invention of the camera as part of some 'Godly Plan' is just too fucking convenient, in my humble opinion.

`​

​

???? AVG-JOE I see you trying to limit God to what you see here,
in order to set up a straw man and say this God is contradictory.

You are right, by the way you set it up to be conflicting. Sure.

So quit setting it up that way.

And please quit blaming other people for setting it up that way
if you are the one doing it. nobody is forcing you to interpret God in
a limited or conflicting way, unless you are TRYING to cling to a contradiction to prove your point. Many people I know have no trouble reconciling views of God, even using the Bible,
but if it doesn't work for you then don't use it that way.

If I agree with your point will you stop and try a different way?
I agree that if YOU keep limiting God to this way, which is not universal,
that can't be the whole of God. Of course it can't especially where God represents the infinite.

So let's drop this way if we agree it is too limiting and God must be greater.

What about God as LIFE or God as NATURE. do you agree that definition of God would be closer to representing forces of life on a universal level?

Emily, it's not God that I find limited or limiting... it's the widespread and stubborn adherence to one or more of the ancient stories as 'sacred', and therefore the last word on God that I find limiting. History has a place in the evolution of humanity, but forward and head-long into The Future is the direction that Monkeys are compelled up The Timeline.

In my humble opinion, if God is, She's way bigger than all of the ancient stories, let alone any one or two of them.

God is neither limited nor limiting, but the widespread worship of ancient books has us hamstrung as a species evolving on the edge of true, survival-of-the-species, Sentience.

And religion gets people to do things they normally wouldn't do if it werent for belief in the writings from these ancient men.

Think about it. Slave owners in 1800 thought that they were going to heaven and today christians tell gay people that theyre flawed and will burn in hell for all of eternity.

 

[sealybobo]

I can't imagine a god who, if it actually existed, would be the only such god that exists. Once we open the door to a proper god-being's existence, aren't we saying there's more than 1?

That the Jewish Tanach makes mention of other gods doesn't help.

Or that before the Abraham god the Greeks imagined many gods first. That was mans first hunch or hypothis. The one god theory was useful if you want one ruler to rule everyone.

Notice I didn't give it the credit of a theory? God isn't even a good theory. The idea fails as far as scientific theories goes. What evidence do you say you have? Why this isn't evidence at all. Fail!

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Being gay, or actually having gay relationships and sex isn't going to send you to hell any more than breaking any of the other hundreds of commandments will. Get in more serious theological trouble breaking the Sabbath, dissing the Holy Spirit, etc. than who you have sex with.

Just as sinful to have premarital sex as it is to be having gay sex. Both are death penalty offenses.

 

[sealybobo]

Being gay, or actually having gay relationships and sex isn't going to send you to hell any more than breaking any of the other hundreds of commandments will. Get in more serious theological trouble breaking the Sabbath, dissing the Holy Spirit, etc. than who you have sex with.

Just as sinful to have premarital sex as it is to be having gay sex. Both are death penalty offenses.

But having sex without being married isn't is kind of a gays only option right now.

If that's the problem that you want them married first then let em get married. Lol

I think pre marital sex was a sin because they had a problem with too many baby mamma drama. We should try that again because its a problem again. Parents teach your children well..

Why do gays have to be married? So they don't get aids.

 

[sealybobo]

I can't imagine a god who, if it actually existed, would be the only such god that exists. Once we open the door to a proper god-being's existence, aren't we saying there's more than 1?

That the Jewish Tanach makes mention of other gods doesn't help.

I like Sunday mornings when all the kids are at Sunday school.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Being gay, or actually having gay relationships and sex isn't going to send you to hell any more than breaking any of the other hundreds of commandments will. Get in more serious theological trouble breaking the Sabbath, dissing the Holy Spirit, etc. than who you have sex with.

Just as sinful to have premarital sex as it is to be having gay sex. Both are death penalty offenses.

But having sex without being married isn't is kind of a gays only option right now.

If that's the problem that you want them married first then let em get married. Lol

I think pre marital sex was a sin because they had a problem with too many baby mamma drama. We should try that again because its a problem again. Parents teach your children well..

Why do gays have to be married? So they don't get aids.

Married people don't get AIDS? Huh. News to me. Thought it was spread through body fluids, not the absence of religious rites or legal documents?

 

[sealybobo]

Being gay, or actually having gay relationships and sex isn't going to send you to hell any more than breaking any of the other hundreds of commandments will. Get in more serious theological trouble breaking the Sabbath, dissing the Holy Spirit, etc. than who you have sex with.

Just as sinful to have premarital sex as it is to be having gay sex. Both are death penalty offenses.

But having sex without being married isn't is kind of a gays only option right now.

If that's the problem that you want them married first then let em get married. Lol

I think pre marital sex was a sin because they had a problem with too many baby mamma drama. We should try that again because its a problem again. Parents teach your children well..

Why do gays have to be married? So they don't get aids.

Married people don't get AIDS? Huh. News to me. Thought it was spread through body fluids, not the absence of religious rites or legal documents?

No what I mean is people get diseases when they sleep around. So religion's rule about waiting for marriage would make sense. Otherwise fuck away right?