Zone1 I am stepping away from Judaism

i. NotfooledbyW dclxxii. to 652. : Jewish law, which states that life or personhood begins at birth. nfbw 241127 Viasaf00672

ii. rosends dclxxvii. to 672. : As for Jewish law, life does NOT begin at birth. The quote from Yevamot says that life begins after 40 days in the womb. rsnds 241127 Siasaf00677

iii. NotfooledbyW dcclxxxi.to 677 : What about ensoulment in Judaism? Do you agree with this?


Classic Christianity has always said that the soul which enters the fetus is tainted and must be cleansed by baptism to save it from eternal perdition. According to the doctrine of original sin, each individual soul inherits the taint of its primordial ancestors.​
When St. Fulgentius in the sixth century was asked when that stain attaches to the person, he replied that it begins with conception. This resulted in concern that the fetus be brought to term so that it might be baptized. Without baptism the soul is condemned to death in both worlds, making abortion clearly worse than murder.​
Accordingly, it should be said that when Catholics reputedly decide to “let the mother die” rather than allow an abortion, they are not being cruel; rather, they are being logically consistent. The mother was presumably baptized as an infant; she can die and “go to her reward.” But the child must be brought to term and baptized to save it from perdition. So sincere is this concern that theologians at the Sorbonne in the nineteenth century invented a baptismal syringe, wherewith to baptize a fetus in utero in the event of a spontaneous abortion, a miscarriage.​
But this is surely a concern that the Jewish community cannot share, since we have no concept of original sin. We recite daily in our prayers words that come directly from the Talmud : “My God, the soul with which thou hast endowed me is pure.” We inherit a pure soul, which becomes contaminated only by our own misdeeds. Thus, early abortion would send a fetus to heaven in a state of pristine purity.​
While the Talmud does discuss the time of ensoulment–is it when the child is conceived, or at the first trimester, at birth, or, as one opinion has it, when the child first answers “Amen”?–it dismisses the question as both unanswerable and irrelevant to the abortion question.​
nfbw 241201 Viasaf00781
 
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NotfooledbyW dcclxxxii. : Paine’s writings were so widely-read and influential that John Adams once said: “Without the pen of the author of ‘Common Sense,’ the sword of Washington would have been raised in vain.”

i. Meriweather dcclxxiii. to. 772 : In scripture it appears that God once condoned or permitted slavery? mrwthr 241130 Siasaf00773

ii. ding cmxxv says the Democratic Party is: ….. responsible for 150 years of slavery, dvng 210318 Stfmhf00925

iii. NotfooledbyW dcclxxxii. to tfmhf000925: Thomas Paine : would be considered “woke” by Republicans of today because: he was eternally critical of Christian’s holding on to their sacred Biblical Worldview “truth”. see post iasaf00780

Thomas Paine AN ANSWER TO A FRIEND. PARIS, May 12, 1797. As I have now given you my reasons for believing that the Bible is not the word of God, that it is a falsehood, I have a right to ask you your reasons for believing the contrary; but I know you can give me none, except that you were educated to believe the Bible; and as the Turks give the same reason for believing the Koran, it is evident that education makes all the difference, and that reason and truth have nothing to do in the case. You believe in the Bible from the accident of birth, and the Turks believe in the Koran from the same accident, and each calls the other ‘infidel.’ But leaving the prejudice of education out of the case, the unprejudiced truth is, that all are infidels who believe falsely of God, whether they draw their creed from the Bible, or from the Koran, from the Old Testament, or from the New.​

Paine was an abolitionist long before Lincoln: You can’t lie your way into rehabilitating the God of Abraham by blabbing that the Democratic Party is responsible for slavery. That is absurd.
 
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Why do that? I'm not sure what you are trying to convince me of.
As this is a discussion forum I am not trying to convince you--or anyone--of anything. A little about myself: As a in a large family, and then later as I entered school, I was fascinated by all the different perspectives around me. Just as some collect stamps and coins, I have always collected perspectives. My mom was always black-and-white on perspectives: Hers was right, and everyone else was wrong. I am not in that realm, I exist in the grey, and I very much enjoy exploring the various shades in grey.

One of the reasons I fall so hard for God, is throughout time, God has been in our midst, has met us where we are, and led and guided us to something--not only better--but greater. He did this in Egypt, from slavery to freedom--and along the way it seems the Jewish people were among the first to turn away from owning slaves themselves. Joseph was in a well...then in prison...and was led/guided to be an advisor to a king. Jonah ran...even so, was led/guided to save a city. Examples continue in the Christian New Testament and many are rooted in Jewish teachings where there is even a higher, finer level: Don't commit adultery, don't even lust. Don't go the required distance, go twice the required distance. Don't kill, and don't remain angry.

Something greater....What is greater than divorce? Working out marriage vows through love. Greater than abortion? Welcoming new life.

A non-religious way of thinking is, Do we settle for what is easiest (become settlers) or do we travel on over the difficulties of mountains and valleys (become pioneers).

The last thing about me: I said I came from a large family where babies were ALWAYS arriving at the most inconvenient times possible. It all worked out. We would have missed out on so many gifts over our lives if our parents had taken a more convenient option.

All that aside, I was seeking a discussion on the reflection, is God leading us to something finer in our lives, a finer way of life, a life of pure love, pure goodness, which is the life He leads. While abortion, like slavery, is worth considering, what else is society immersed in that God is leading/guiding us out of? Or is He? Did He leave off on that, or do you have another perspective on how God works with us?
 
What apple? You ignore what the text says and then invent an apple.
I think it's great you try to distract from blaming God, but I'm pretty sure you got the point.
 
You blamed God for your dehumanizing human life.
No, I did not. I pointed out that God established a law which indicates that a fetus is s not a human life. Argue with the text if you don't like it.
 
No, I did not. I pointed out that God established a law which indicates that a fetus is s not a human life. Argue with the text if you don't like it.
And laws that allowed for slavery which you no longer accept.
 
So you are ok with slavery?
Now you ask after assuming my position? The answer is that I am not interested in owning slaves and Judaism as a religion does not see it as possible to own slaves now in the USA.
 
God established a law which indicates that a fetus is s not a human life
Learn some science.

“Human life begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoo developmentn) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.” “A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).”
Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.

“In that fraction of a second when the chromosomes form pairs, the sex of the new child will be determined, hereditary characteristics received from each parent will be set, and a new life will have begun.”
Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974.

“It should always be remembered that many organs are still not completely developed by full-term and birth should be regarded only as an incident in the whole developmental process.”
F Beck Human Embryology, Blackwell Scientific Publications, 1985 page vi

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.”
Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30

“Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal and postnatal periods, it is important to realize that birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment.”
The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology fifth edition, Moore and Persaud, 1993, Saunders Company, page 1

“The zygote and early embryo are living human organisms.”
Keith L. Moore & T.V.N. Persaud Before We Are Born – Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects (W.B. Saunders Company, 1998. Fifth edition.) Page 500

“The term conception refers to the union of the male and female pronuclear elements of procreation from which a new living being develops. It is synonymous with the terms fecundation, impregnation, and fertilization … The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life.”
J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Freidman. Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. 1974 Pages 17 and 23.

“[The zygote], formed by the union of an oocyte and a sperm, is the beginning of a new human being.”
Keith L. Moore, Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008. p. 2.

“Although life is a continuous process, fertilization… is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte.”
Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Miller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 2001. p. 8.

“[All] organisms, however large and complex they might be as full grown, begin life as a single cell. This is true for the human being, for instance, who begins life as a fertilized ovum.”
Dr. Morris Krieger “The Human Reproductive System” p 88 (1969) Sterling Pub. Co

“The first cell of a new and unique human life begins existence at the moment of conception (fertilization) when one living sperm from the father joins with one living ovum from the mother. It is in this manner that human life passes from one generation to another. Given the appropriate environment and genetic composition, the single cell subsequently gives rise to trillions of specialized and integrated cells that compose the structures and functions of each individual human body. Every human being alive today and, as far as is known scientifically, every human being that ever existed, began his or her unique existence in this manner, i.e., as one cell. If this first cell or any subsequent configuration of cells perishes, the individual dies, ceasing to exist in matter as a living being. There are no known exceptions to this rule in the field of human biology.”
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James Bopp, ed., Human Life and Health Care Ethics, vol. 2 (Frederick, MD: University Publications of America, 1985)

“The formation, maturation and meeting of a male and female sex cell are all preliminary to their actual union into a combined cell, or zygote, which definitely marks the beginning of a new individual. The penetration of the ovum by the spermatozoon, and the coming together and pooling of their respective nuclei, constitutes the process of fertilization.”
Leslie Brainerd Arey, “Developmental Anatomy” seventh edition space (Philadelphia: Saunders, 1974), 55

“The zygote therefore contains a new arrangement of genes on the chromosomes never before duplicated in any other individual. The offspring destined to develop from the fertilized ovum will have a genetic constitution different from anyone else in the world.”
DeCoursey, R.M., The Human Organism, 4th edition McGraw Hill Inc., Toronto, 1974. page 584

“The science of the development of the individual before birth is called embryology. It is the story of miracles, describing the means by which a single microscopic cell is transformed into a complex human being. Genetically the zygote is complete. It represents a new single celled individual.”
Thibodeau, G.A., and Anthony, C.P., Structure and Function of the Body, 8th edition, St. Louis: Times Mirror/Mosby College Publishers, St. Louis, 1988. pages 409-419

“Each human begins life as a combination of two cells, a female ovum and a much smaller male sperm. This tiny unit, no bigger than a period on this page, contains all the information needed to enable it to grow into the complex …structure of the human body. The mother has only to provide nutrition and protection.”
Clark, J. ed., The Nervous System: Circuits of Communication in the Human Body, Torstar Books Inc., Toronto, 1985, page 99

“A zygote (a single fertilized egg cell) represents the onset of pregnancy and the genesis of new life.”
Turner, J.S., and Helms, D.B., Lifespan Developmental, 2nd ed., CBS College Publishing (Holt, Rhinehart, Winston), 1983, page 53

“Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)… The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual.”
Carlson, Bruce M. Patten’s Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3

“Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism…. At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun…. The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life.”
Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand’s Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943

“In that fraction of a second when the chromosomes form pairs, [at conception] the sex of the new child will be determined, hereditary characteristics received from each parent will be set, and a new life will have begun.”
Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974

“The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.”
Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual.”
Human Embryology, 3rd ed. Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43.

“In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual. … Fertilization takes place in the oviduct … resulting in the formation of a zygote containing a single diploid nucleus. Embryonic development is considered to begin at this point… This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development.”
Essentials of Human Embryology, William J. Larsen, (New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998), 1-17.

“Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed… Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments… The zygote … is a unicellular embryo..”
From Human Embryology & Teratology, Ronan R. O’Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55.

“[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.”
The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed. Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18:
 
15th post
No, I did not. I pointed out that God established a law which indicates that a fetus is s not a human life. Argue with the text if you don't like it.
Hitler didn't see Jews as human either.
 
Learn some science.


Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.


Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974.


F Beck Human Embryology, Blackwell Scientific Publications, 1985 page vi


Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30


The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology fifth edition, Moore and Persaud, 1993, Saunders Company, page 1


Keith L. Moore & T.V.N. Persaud Before We Are Born – Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects (W.B. Saunders Company, 1998. Fifth edition.) Page 500


J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Freidman. Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. 1974 Pages 17 and 23.


Keith L. Moore, Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008. p. 2.


Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Miller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 2001. p. 8.


Dr. Morris Krieger “The Human Reproductive System” p 88 (1969) Sterling Pub. Co


James Bopp, ed., Human Life and Health Care Ethics, vol. 2 (Frederick, MD: University Publications of America, 1985)


Leslie Brainerd Arey, “Developmental Anatomy” seventh edition space (Philadelphia: Saunders, 1974), 55


DeCoursey, R.M., The Human Organism, 4th edition McGraw Hill Inc., Toronto, 1974. page 584


Thibodeau, G.A., and Anthony, C.P., Structure and Function of the Body, 8th edition, St. Louis: Times Mirror/Mosby College Publishers, St. Louis, 1988. pages 409-419


Clark, J. ed., The Nervous System: Circuits of Communication in the Human Body, Torstar Books Inc., Toronto, 1985, page 99


Turner, J.S., and Helms, D.B., Lifespan Developmental, 2nd ed., CBS College Publishing (Holt, Rhinehart, Winston), 1983, page 53


Carlson, Bruce M. Patten’s Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3


Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand’s Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943


Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974


Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3


Human Embryology, 3rd ed. Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43.


Essentials of Human Embryology, William J. Larsen, (New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998), 1-17.


From Human Embryology & Teratology, Ronan R. O’Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55.


The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed. Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18:
So you aren't a fan of God's law. Noted, but so what?
 
I don't recall giving my opinion about either one. Show me otherwise.
Do you recall blaming God for your not accepting the science that human life begins at conception?
 

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