Zone1 Humanity and Jesus

[Meriweather]

Which is what the religious people will tell you.

No person of faith has ever told me about heaven being fluffy, white clouds.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Actually, it is about living in love. The first three Commandments speak of loving God; the next seven are about loving one's fellow man.

No, I disagree. That's your interpretation. The 10 commandments was clearly a moral code saying what people should or should not do. Essentially early laws.

Love didn't come into it until later, New Testament.

 

[frigidweirdo]

No person of faith has ever told me about heaven being fluffy, white clouds.

Sigh

 

[Meriweather]

It merely seems like you're trying an age old trick designed to "win" a debate by saying things that are silly.

Win a conversation? Now that is silly, but accept I concede all "wins" to you. Moving on.

I don't "hate God". I don't think there is a God, or gods.

Of course you believe in God. You believe he is a homicidal maniac and have said so many times. You have been vehement about this. There are many atheists in my life, none of whom have the slightest interest in church, bible, or religion forums. As an example, do you post on any Flat Earth forums?

 

[Meriweather]

Love didn't come into it until later, New Testament.

I'm guessing you skipped over Leviticus?

 

[Foxfyre]

Have you ever thought about getting to know Jesus, focusing on his humanity? For example, what is his favorite color? On a modern outdoor patio, would he choose the recliner or the hanging egg chair? If he picked a garden flower, which would he choose, which herb would he choose to pluck and sniff? What's his favorite Johnny Cash song, does he prefer badminton or pickle ball? (Remember, being fully human, he has preferences.) Which (non-religious) item would catch his attention in your home? Do you ever think of Jesus in these terms?

Getting back to your most interesting OP, no I honestly never wondered about what was Jesus favorite color or favorite food or any of the everyday things like that. It's difficult enough trying to explain a Christian's relationship with the living Christ to the non believer, and I am one of those who appreciates and credits God with us. To put him into a definable frame which I believe is impossible. If any of us mere mortals could actually define who and what God is, what He will do and/or how He will do it, I think He wouldn't be much of a God.

But I do think the admonition to 'pray without ceasing' is probably like Tevya's ongoing conversations with God as he went about his daily chores. It was akind of constant consciousness of God and a sense that He is with us at all times. (Fiddler on the Roof.)

When Jesus of Nazareth walked the Earth I believe he was wholly human and wholly God. And I like to think he wasn't the solemn, stern, gloomy Jesus we so often see in painted representations of Him but a pleasant, engaging, compelling person which is why the apostles followed Him, why he was so often welcomed as a guest, why crowds came to hear him.

 

[Meriweather]

When Jesus of Nazareth walked the Earth I believe he was wholly human and wholly God. And I like to think he wasn't the solemn, stern, gloomy Jesus we so often see in painted representations of Him but a pleasant, engaging, compelling person which is why the apostles followed Him, why he was so often welcomed as a guest, why crowds came to hear him.

When Jesus walked the Earth, he was clearly a giver. He gave of his wisdom, his healing, and his time. Like you, I believe he had a charismatic nature and people were glad of the opportunity to be near him and even a part of what he was doing. It's what started me thinking of what people who knew Jesus gave him. As I was musing about this, it occurred to me, "I'll bet Martha knows." And that led me on to thinking about what Martha's favorite things may have been. Knowing the little things about people helps to know them and also to give back. I think of Mary who anointed Jesus' feet. The account says she used costly oil. Did Mary choose that oil because it was costly, or did she know it was a favorite of Jesus'? (Yes, I grumbled at male authors who would pick up on the cost, but were probably totally oblivious to the idea Mary may have had something else in mind when she chose that oil especially for Jesus.)

 

[frigidweirdo]

Win a conversation? Now that is silly, but accept I concede all "wins" to you. Moving on.

Of course you believe in God. You believe he is a homicidal maniac and have said so many times. You have been vehement about this. There are many atheists in my life, none of whom have the slightest interest in church, bible, or religion forums. As an example, do you post on any Flat Earth forums?

Yes, it's silly to try and "win" a conversation. A conversation is about the journey, not the destination. However, welcome to the real world of a lot of people on this forum.

But like I said, you saying "go and find where it says "God is evil"" is the sort of thing you get from people who are looking to "win" rather than converse.

No. I don't believe in God. I also don't believe in Harry Potter, but I can tell you that Harry Potter plays Quidditch and goes to school at Hogwarts.

There's a difference between what I believe/think, and what I see when I read the Bible. I can accept that God is a fictional character or even characters made up by various peoples over the ages, and I can look at human psychology and see why it was done. But that doesn't mean I believe that there is a REAL God or gods.

We have a conversation about God in the Bible, I'll tell you he's a homicidal maniac in the Bible. That's what the Bible says. I can believe the Bible exists, because I've seen the Bible, same as I've seen and read copies of Harry Potter and the Whatever....

Part of my point of view is - the Bible basically proves there isn't a God.

Why? Because the Bible is too contradictory. Because the Bible is far too convenient for human beings. I've said these things before. But I have to work within the Bible, within what the Bible says to show my point of view.

God has changed as an entity because humans have changed in the last 5,000 years. God is contradictory. God is portrayed as one thing here, and the opposite there.

I don't post on Flat Earth pages. Mostly because it doesn't interest me. I think most Flat Earthers do so either just because they find it funny to wind people up and try and prove something so obviously wrong, or they're people who just don't want the powers that be to be right. So, those people don't interest me.

You clearly believe there is a God, a good debate is one where people have different views. No point in talking about things when both sides are congratulating each other on being right. That's boring.

I grew up a Christian. My father and his parents weren't. My mother is to a certain extent, it's difficult to know. She went to church until she got into a fight or just disliked the female vicar. She did it mostly for social reasons as all the respectable people (except the next door neighbor from Zimbabwe) went to church and did churchy things.

I have an understand of religion. From the psychological point of view it interests me the most. I try and understand people. When I talk politics, mostly I'm looking at the person I'm debating with (or just arguing with) rather than what they're saying.

Religion is important for humans, it defines what humans are.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I'm guessing you skipped over Leviticus?

It doesn't really matter. If every message from God was either about love, or something neutral, then fine. But it's not. God is violent because humans are violent. They expect their God to mirror themselves.

Also they grew up in nature which was violent. They couldn't control anything. Couldn't control floods. So they attempted to "control" them by bowing down to a God who would then see their praise and not give them big natural disasters, would give them bountiful harvests and the like.

 

[there4eyeM]

There are at least two errors in how people deal with the Bible. One is thinking it is understood and to be taken literally. One is to think it is understood and is literally not to be taken.
Closer to truth is that it is metaphor and very helpful in understanding humanity, society and the invisible.

 

[frigidweirdo]

There are at least two errors in how people deal with the Bible. One is thinking it is understood and to be taken literally. One is to think it is understood and is literally not to be taken.
Closer to truth is that it is metaphor and very helpful in understanding humanity, society and the invisible.

Not really.

Some people take it literally, some people don't.

Is the Noah's Ark story true? If not, then what is it? A moral story? Don't be violent?

Imagine you want to tell people "don't be violent", does telling them that God is a genocidal maniac make people want to be less violent?

Christianity is the most violent of religions, people are free to do as they wish during the week and all will be forgiven if they go to church.

So all the high murder countries are Christian. You can take the top 35 countries for murder, and they'll all be Christian. Those that aren't, countries like Iraq, have been impacted by Christian countries, like the US.

 

[Meriweather]

"God is evil"" is the sort of thing you get from people who are looking to "win" rather than converse.

The reason it is not a "win" and should not be seen in that light is that it is a counter to the claim the Bible says God is evil. In fact, many times (somewhere around a hundred if I recall correctly) the Bible says God is not evil. The Bible says God is Good. You countered this with a cut and paste that still did not include a Bible verse stating God is evil. Therefore, the point is resolved: No where does the Bible state, "God is evil." This takes us back to a person(s) coming to their own conclusion that God is evil.

No. I don't believe in God. I also don't believe in Harry Potter, but I can tell you that Harry Potter plays Quidditch and goes to school at Hogwarts.

And I can offer that the Poky Little Puppy wandered away from home to go exploring. Or, that the Gingerbread Man claimed to be a fast runner. So?

 

[Meriweather]

Religion is important for humans, it defines what humans are.

What is your definition of humans? For example, those who believe in reincarnation think of humans as a soul that travels in a body until the body breaks down and then it goes on in another body. Atheists think of humans as a body that dies. The end. Christianity holds the belief that humans are made up of both body and soul and while the soul is separated from the body upon death, there is a future resurrection of the body as we are both body and soul.

 

[Foxfyre]

When Jesus walked the Earth, he was clearly a giver. He gave of his wisdom, his healing, and his time. Like you, I believe he had a charismatic nature and people were glad of the opportunity to be near him and even a part of what he was doing. It's what started me thinking of what people who knew Jesus gave him. As I was musing about this, it occurred to me, "I'll bet Martha knows." And that led me on to thinking about what Martha's favorite things may have been. Knowing the little things about people helps to know them and also to give back. I think of Mary who anointed Jesus' feet. The account says she used costly oil. Did Mary choose that oil because it was costly, or did she know it was a favorite of Jesus'? (Yes, I grumbled at male authors who would pick up on the cost, but were probably totally oblivious to the idea Mary may have had something else in mind when she chose that oil especially for Jesus.)

Yes some of those things are hard to understand and/or explain with our 21st Century understanding. I think writers then were no different than writers now. They didn't bother to describe or explain or give a lot of detail to things that were commonly understood and a way of life for people in their culture then.

For example the metaphors 'crooked as a politician' or 'mountain of paperwork' or 'concrete jungle' or common things like cars, telephones, cocktail parties are all familiar to the average American and appear in novels or non fiction alike without any explanation necessary. Fast forward two or more thousand years though and an alien people unearthing remnants of our civilization would have to speculate or do some serious research to understand what was meant by those metaphors and names for things.

Likewise reading back into the time the scriptures were written requires the serious Bible scholar to do some extra research to understand what many events and comments meant to those who wrote them which can be very different from what they mean in our time and culture.

The ancient Jews believed nothing exists or happens without God causing it to happen and that's the way they wrote it. In their minds it was not necessary to try to explain the necessary Catch 22 conclusion of God creating sin and then punishing mankind for sin etc. It simply did not occur to them that this was a problem.

The Holy Spirit however leads us into truth and allows to to experience God's love for us and we are more likely to see God as a being to love instead of fear. For me it means taking the history related in the Old Testament as interesting and at times significant for us now, but not necessarily having to accept that the horrors related in the text were the way God wanted it.

For me God is love. I don't understand why He allows so much pain and suffering and hatred and cruelty and horror happen in the world, but I do have to believe it is because humankind did that, not God.

 

[Meriweather]

The Holy Spirit however leads us into truth and allows to to experience God's love for us and we are more likely to see God as a being to love instead of fear. For me it means taking the history related in the Old Testament as interesting and at times significant for us now, but not necessarily having to accept that the horrors related in the text were the way God wanted it.

For me God is love. I don't understand why He allows so much pain and suffering and hatred and cruelty and horror happen in the world, but I do have to believe it is because humankind did that, not God.

Yes, it was a mess created by humans and therefore should be cleared away by us. Sure, God could coddle us, but in the end wouldn't that weaken us? Having faith that we can and should handle our own messes and leave us (for the most part) to work it out has the better chance of strengthening us. God is not a helicopter parent--and how many want that type of parent anyway.

 

[frigidweirdo]

The reason it is not a "win" and should not be seen in that light is that it is a counter to the claim the Bible says God is evil. In fact, many times (somewhere around a hundred if I recall correctly) the Bible says God is not evil. The Bible says God is Good. You countered this with a cut and paste that still did not include a Bible verse stating God is evil. Therefore, the point is resolved: No where does the Bible state, "God is evil." This takes us back to a person(s) coming to their own conclusion that God is evil.

And I can offer that the Poky Little Puppy wandered away from home to go exploring. Or, that the Gingerbread Man claimed to be a fast runner. So?

I think we're done.

 

[zaangalewa]

Have you ever thought about getting to know Jesus, focusing on his humanity? For example, what is his favorite color? On a modern outdoor patio, would he choose the recliner or the hanging egg chair? If he picked a garden flower, which would he choose, which herb would he choose to pluck and sniff? What's his favorite Johnny Cash song, does he prefer badminton or pickle ball? (Remember, being fully human, he has preferences.) Which (non-religious) item would catch his attention in your home? Do you ever think of Jesus in these terms?

For example, what is his favorite color?

White - the light color of Jesus is white. It's the color of innocence and the sum of all colors of the rainbow.

On a modern outdoor patio, would he choose the recliner or the hanging egg chair?

Yes.

If he picked a garden flower, which would he choose, which herb would he choose to pluck and sniff?

He bows to the flower to sniff.

What's his favorite Johnny Cash song, ...

Hmm - a good question. A song is somehow a loop in time, a little time pearl. Maybe he's wearing a pretty pearl necklace. In case of Johnny Cash with black pearls?

...

By the way: I'm onyl able to imagine two reasons why the early Christians reported nothing about the appearance of Jesus or anything about his preferences. Either he had been a totally normal human being like all others - or they saw in him god ... or both. ...

 

[zaangalewa]

Stop embarrassing the Essene Monk , OP .

You are like some teenage hysterical pop star fan .

Suppose Arch Angel Gabriel --- correct translation An Enforcer -- passed on through Mary undesirable Nephilim traits .
Red hair and a liking for vulgar tattoos .
No wonder he disappeared at around 12 years for so long -- constant offending and young offender hostels .

Eh? Russian, did you not forget to leave the Ukraine with all of your soldiers? Yesterday?

 

[zaangalewa]

Jesus's "father" was a genocidal manic. It'd be like worshiping Pol Pot's son.

The atheist Pol Pot had a son? He was a bad pupil and student - can it be he never learned what it means to be a father and to take care for a family?

 

[zaangalewa]

He was.

It literally says so in the Bible.

"So God said to Noah, “I have decided to destroy all living creatures, for they have filled the earth with violence. Yes, I will wipe them all out along with the earth!"

You should read the complete story when you will be a child. Then you will understand this story very easily. What you say here is by the way not the text I know. It is "I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth." Your problem could it be now that you live on an earth which was destroyed so you are not able to live on this earth. But this is for no human child of god a problem - except that is an idiot who not understands that he is in the responsibility to save all and every life - what's one of the most important points of the whole story.

Hitler basically said "I have decided to kill all Jews, for they have filled the earth with stuff I do not like. Yes, I will wipe them all out"

Eh? Never heard this. What do you quote here? Source please.

Heinrich Himmler saw in Jews a superior race. With this absurde Darwinian fake idea he motivated his SS-soldiers to kill every Jew - man, woman, child, baby - everyone. He liked to eliminate all genetical information of all Jews in all mankind. Some people say in this context the Nazis liked to make undone god. That's the same what you like to do.

We called it GENOCIDE and it was much less than what God was doing.

I am a German with also Jewish ancestors - many of my family members had been murdered from the Nazis - and I personally do not call this "genocide" - I call this from my German point of view "fratricide". The Slaws who had helped to murder Jews did do a genocide (~1/3 of the SS not had been Germans since 1942); The Germans who did do so did do a fratricide, because the Jews had been Germans like all others. The Nazis not had been Germans like all others.