How Ukraine Annexed Crimea.

[Comrade Johnson]

[
The ICJ found that Kosovo's declaration of independence didn't violate international laws. Tehon's logic withstands that test!

Great. Why don't Russia and Serbia recognize the international laws? They didn't recognize Kosovo's independence.

The Russians protested that it would set a precedent that would come back and slap the West in the face. Indeed!

So following the international laws sets precendents which come back and slap the West in the face?
And I was not talking about Russians, but the Russian government.

 

[Camp]

[
The ICJ found that Kosovo's declaration of independence didn't violate international laws. Tehon's logic withstands that test!

Great. Why don't Russia and Serbia recognize the international laws? They didn't recognize Kosovo's independence.

The Russians protested that it would set a precedent that would come back and slap the West in the face. Indeed!

So following the international laws sets precendents which come back and slap the West in the face?
And I was not talking about Russians, but the Russian government.

Comparing Kosovo to Crimea lacks one very substantial factor in the conversation taking place on this thread. Specifically, UN involvement and resolutions. There will always be debate as to whether NATO military intervention was a "legally wrong but morally right" intervention, but there is little room for debate for the UN Resolutions that followed which gained Kosovo independence.

Our friend Tehon seems to be promoting the idea that Crimea, like Kosovo, is a case of "legally wrong but morally right". This idea is technically valid and fair to debate as long as it is understood that many of the factors are subjective opinions. The fundamental question is whether intervention can or should be implemented when unspeakable atrocities against citizens are being committed by the opposing sides of a civil war. The NATO Alliance took the position that moral obligations took precedence over legal obligations. Did Russia face the same dilemma, situation, and circumstances in Crimea?

The casual observer of this thread would have to have some knowledge of the situations in Kosovo as compared to Crimea and the war in south-eastern Ukraine to make an objective analysis and conclusion.

 

[Tehon]

Great. Why don't Russia and Serbia recognize the international laws? They didn't recognize Kosovo's independence.

Butthurt, they lost the geopolitical battle.

So following the international laws sets precendents which come back and slap the West in the face?

Apparently, the West is now butthurt over Crimea.

And I was not talking about Russians, but the Russian government

It's a given.

 

[Tehon]

Comparing Kosovo to Crimea lacks one very substantial factor in the conversation taking place on this thread. Specifically, UN involvement and resolutions. There will always be debate as to whether NATO military intervention was a "legally wrong but morally right" intervention, but there is little room for debate for the UN Resolutions that followed which gained Kosovo independence.

The UN never sanctioned Kosovo's independence.

Our friend Tehon seems to be promoting the idea that Crimea, like Kosovo, is a case of "legally wrong but morally right".

I was born and reside in a country that declared independence based on a natural right to self governance. Why would I deny that to anyone else? That would be rather hypocritical.

 

[Stratford57]

Even some Western Media starts seeing the other side of the story about "poor" Ukraine:

On Dec. 29, influential Ukrainian oligarch Viktor Pinchuk set off a firestorm in Kiev by arguing in the op-ed section of the Wall Street Journal that Ukraine needed to make “painful compromises for peace” with Russian-backed separatists, including not letting Crimea “get in the way” of a peace deal, holding elections in the occupied territories, and abandoning Ukraine’s aspirations to become a member of the European Union. The article provoked a backlash from Ukrainian elected officials and pundits who called Pinchuk “pro-Putin” and quickly turned the businessman and his associates into political pariahs.

Nadiya Savchenko, a Ukrainian pilot who was held in prison for two years in Russia on politically motivated charges and championed as a Ukrainian hero during her detention, was denounced as a traitor by hard-liners in January for suggesting that the “only peaceful solution” to the conflict in the east would involve Ukraine putting Crimea “on the back burner” in order to regain the separatist-controlled areas of eastern Ukraine.

But the fighting in eastern Ukraine is complex and as much driven by domestic as international factors. “Right now,” Minakov president of the Foundation for Good Politics and a professor at Kyiv-Mohyla Academy. said, “there is no party of peace in Ukraine.”

Ukraine, Putin said, “needs money right now and you can best get money from the EU … the U.S., and financial institutions if you portray yourself as a victim of aggression.”

Foreign Policy Journal
Kiev Is Fueling the War in Eastern Ukraine, Too

And BTW Pinchuk was the one, donating a lot of money to Hillary's campaign:

Between 2009 and 2013, including when Mrs. Clinton was secretary of state, the Clinton Foundation received at least $8.6 million from the Victor Pinchuk Foundation, according to that foundation, which is based in Kiev, Ukraine. It was created by Mr. Pinchuk, whose fortune stems from a pipe-making company. He served two terms as an elected member of the Ukrainian Parliament and is a proponent of closer ties between Ukraine and the European Union.

UKRAINE

 

[Tehon]

Declaration of Independence of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and Sevastopol:

We, the members of the parliament of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the Sevastopol City Council, with regard to the charter of the United Nations and a whole range of other international documents and taking into consideration the confirmation of the status of Kosovo by the United Nations International Court of Justice on July 22, 2010, which says that unilateral declaration of independence by a part of the country does not violate any international norms, make this decision jointly:[1]

1. If a decision to become part of Russia is made at the referendum of the March 16, 2014, Crimea including the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the city of Sevastopol will be announced an independent and sovereign state with a republican order.[4]

2. Republic of Crimea will be a democratic, laic and multinational state, with an obligation to maintain peace, international and intersectarian consent in its territory.[4]

3. If the referendum brings the respective results, Republic of Crimea as an independent and sovereign state will turn to the Russian Federation with the proposition to accept the Republic of Crimea on the basis of a respective interstate treaty into the Russian Federation as a new constituent entity of the Russian Federation.[4]

Declaration approved by the Resolution of the Supreme Council of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea at the extraordinary plenary session on March 11, 2014 (signed by the Chairman of the Supreme Council of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea Vladimir Konstantinov) and by the Decision of the Sevastopol City Council at the extraordinary plenary session on March 11, 2014 (signed by the Chairman of the Sevastopol city council Yury Doynikov).

 

[Tehon]

 

[Stratford57]

Obama's Administration has "helped" quite a bit to determine Ukrainian future.

Let's not forget: according to the Constitution of Ukraine the next president can be elected only if the current president is dead or insane. When Poroshenko "was elected", the current president Yanukovitch was alive and sane (Kiev Junta did tried to kill him though). So, Poroshenko and his Junta are illegitimate clowns, pushing Ukraine into the sh*thole very quickly and very efficiently.

FYI, in 2016 Ukraine officially became the poorest country in Europe.
Ukraine Becoming Poorest Country in Europe Amid IMF-Mandated Austerity

CEPS EU:
Almost three years after the Euromaidan revolution, Ukraine’s leadership has fallen woefully short in delivering on its promises to fight against corruption within the judiciary, clean up political party financing and decentralise government functions. The customs service has yet to be reformed, property rights are far from being ensured and state-owned enterprises have not been privatised. Major reforms aimed at combating corruption have consistently been resisted, delayed, manipulated or appear on paper only. The country’s elite must produce more tangible results in order to earn the trust of the citizens and ease the growing fatigue among Ukraine’s international partners.
https://www.ceps.eu/publications/ukraine’s-unimplemented-anti-corruption-reform

 

[esthermoon]

Poor Ukrainians I hope the was could end as soon as possible. But it doesn't seem a real possibility...

 

[ESay]

Poor Ukrainians I hope the was could end as soon as possible. But it doesn't seem a real possibility...

Thanks for your compassion. But the only way it could end soon it is if Providence will gift the Ukrainians the hard-working quality of the Japanese, the entrepreneurship of the Anglo-Saxons, the law-abiding quality of the Germans. Or, at least, something one from this list. Unfortunately, I can’t hope that this will happen any time soon.

 

[xyz]

1920 land claims of first modern Ukrainian state:

 

[esthermoon]

Poor Ukrainians I hope the was could end as soon as possible. But it doesn't seem a real possibility...

Thanks for your compassion. But the only way it could end soon it is if Providence will gift the Ukrainians the hard-working quality of the Japanese, the entrepreneurship of the Anglo-Saxons, the law-abiding quality of the Germans. Or, at least, something one from this list. Unfortunately, I can’t hope that this will happen any time soon.

Another chance would be a good agreement between USA and Russia to end the war. They are the only ones who are capable of this

 

[ESay]

Poor Ukrainians I hope the was could end as soon as possible. But it doesn't seem a real possibility...

Thanks for your compassion. But the only way it could end soon it is if Providence will gift the Ukrainians the hard-working quality of the Japanese, the entrepreneurship of the Anglo-Saxons, the law-abiding quality of the Germans. Or, at least, something one from this list. Unfortunately, I can’t hope that this will happen any time soon.

Another chance would be a good agreement between USA and Russia to end the war. They are the only ones who are capable of this

Yes, they are the only ones, but there is one issue – the views about what is a good agreement drastically vary between the warring sides.