How powerful would god need to be?

[Taz]

These peeps can even come up with anything remotely plausible, let alone real proof.

They, and I, don't feel we need proof;definitive or otherwise; to support our beluefs. The only difference between them and me us thst I'm ot gonna sit here and try to change yoir mind.

It's not a question of changing my mind, I came here to see if believers had any real proof to base their beliefs on, it turns out they don't, they simply like living in a fantasy world because reality scares them too much. And I don't think you'd change that, would you?

 

[Anathema]

the subject was faith and how it is used as a shield rather than the means to come to a conclusion, you seemed to have agreed it is in itself a reality.

Faith IS its own conclusion so far as I'm concerned. It's just a question of what do you have Faith in.

 

[Anathema]

It's not a question of changing my mind, I came here to see if believers had any real proof to base their beliefs on, it turns out they don't, they simply like living in a fantasy world because reality scares them too much. And I don't think you'd change that, would you?

I'm a proponent of Faith myself. If I could provide you with verifiable proof, it would cease to be Faith. My Faith is based on my personal life experiences combined with my philosophical and socio-political beliefs. I don't seek the approval of or expect the agreement of others on my Fsith. Nor do I seek to "convert" others to my Faith.

 

[Taz]

It's not a question of changing my mind, I came here to see if believers had any real proof to base their beliefs on, it turns out they don't, they simply like living in a fantasy world because reality scares them too much. And I don't think you'd change that, would you?

I'm a proponent of Faith myself. If I could provide you with verifiable proof, it would cease to be Faith. My Faith is based on my personal life experiences combined with my philosophical and socio-political beliefs. I don't seek the approval of or expect the agreement of others on my Fsith. Nor do I seek to "convert" others to my Faith.

You're one of the few, if not the only one, who can admit that you really have nothing to go on, except that that's what you choose to believe. Props to you.

 

[Anathema]

You're one of the few, if not the only one, who can admit that you really have nothing to go on, except that that's what you choose to believe.

I wouldn't say I have nothing to go on; but i will agree that the evidence is not of a solid, physical nature that would be obvious to others.

 

[BreezeWood]

the subject was faith and how it is used as a shield rather than the means to come to a conclusion, you seemed to have agreed it is in itself a reality.

Faith IS its own conclusion so far as I'm concerned. It's just a question of what do you have Faith in.

.

It's just a question of what do you have Faith in.

- because the correct faith leads to a conclusion but is in itself meaningless without accomplishing the tangible reward such is the example of a false faith as the desert scriptural religions.

 

[EGR one]

Considering he made everything that means he can:
-Turn off the sun with a thought
-Have it go super nova
-Rewrite the laws of physics and do away with gravity
-blow up every star in the universe at his command
-Teleport entire planets from one side of his universe to the other.
-Create a unicorn
-Bring back the dinosaurs
-Bring back the dinosaurs in the same form and instance as they were 65 million years ago.
-Take every atom in your body and transform your body into any animal or sex you can imagine.


You'd think with such a powerful god he wouldn't care if we fucked the same gender or wanted to have some fun in our lives. Why does god hate fun and sex so much?

How powerful would the BIG BANG have to be create every molecule in the known universe from a pinpoint of stuff smaller than a flea?? Yeah.. About THAT powerful.. Good luck with all that...

And good luck with how God created itself.

We do not know what we do not know. God is as good of an answer as any current scientific theory on the beginning of the universe, or the beginning of life.

The creator of a video game is God to the characters in the game. The characters have to follow the rules set by the creator. The creator can change the rules at his/her whim.

 

[EGR one]

... According to the laws of nature which existed before space and time.

"Before time" was no before, so we are not able to ask "What was before?". No possible question - no possible answer.

And yet the creation of space and time followed rules.

Whose rules did it follow?

 

[EGR one]

God should be powerful enough that it wouldn't need a book to be accepted.

Then the whole idea of Faith would be destroyed. This life is a test of Faith and the ability to do Right, even when Wrong is easier and more pleasant.

.

Then the whole idea of Faith would be destroyed. This life is a test of Faith and the ability to do Right, even when Wrong is easier and more pleasant.

nothing could be further from the truth, this life is about finding the truth, faith may be a means at various times during the search but in the end the discoveries are what matter. 10,000 pg books of forgeries has nothing to do with access and admission to the Everlasting.

You have an opinion what this life is all about, and that makes it your truth. Your truth is no better than anyone else's opinion about what this life is all about.

Many of you seem to believe that you have all the answers when none of you even know what all the questions are.

You cannot even prove that this universe existed before you woke up this morning. Perhaps you are just a tiny part of some cosmic game and it was just turned on.

 

[EGR one]

​

Let me say it this way: I understand why Stephen Hawking is an atheist and I never would try to change anything in his form not to believe in god. But you are only an idiot on a high level of intentional ignorance and arrogance. You are over stretching the paradigm of natural science not to use god for any explanation of natural processes.

Who is this man you show here and who gives you the right to say this man is an enemy of god or god is his enemy, only because you believe in atheism?

I'm agnostic, I see no proof yet of god,

Agnosticism is a philosophy. You are an atheist who is not able to see that his atheism is "only" a special form of belief. Atheism is by the way also not a reason for anything in natural science.

Stephen Hawking also has found no proof of god, no other reason.

Stephen Hawking is an atheist and if I would be in his position then I guess I would share his atheism. And the word "prove" in this context here is only a method of natural science. God is not an element of a theory of natural science. He created all worlds. You would need a science of "singularity" of "individuality" or "originality" ... and so on ... if you like to "prove" god.

I'll take probably any proof that Stephen Hawkind would accept.

No idea why.

Atheist, imo, is a rejection of the concept of god. I see no proof to reject the possibility of a god. I'm more in the middle,

Good grief. Why is everyone in the English speaking world an idiot? What's the middle between god and not-god?

Because Stephen Hawkind is a smart scientist and I respect what he says and agree with his science, even if down the road something gets proven to be different, he's at least looking seriously, and in the right direction.

I'm not between god... your god has yet to be proven, so I'm really in the same place you are, because you can't prove god either.

Socrates logically concluded that a supreme God had to exist. Part of his proof was the fact that humans could conceive of perfection even though we had never experienced it on this earth. Therefore, we must have brought that concept with us when we were born. We were in a place where perfection existed before we were born on earth.

And, if we were in a place where perfection existed before we got here, it would be logical to conclude that we will return to that place when we leave here.

 

[ding]

... According to the laws of nature which existed before space and time.

"Before time" was no before, so we are not able to ask "What was before?". No possible question - no possible answer.

And yet the creation of space and time followed rules.

Whose rules did it follow?

That is the 64 thousand dollar question.

Welcome aboard.

 

[ding]

God should be powerful enough that it wouldn't need a book to be accepted.

Then the whole idea of Faith would be destroyed. This life is a test of Faith and the ability to do Right, even when Wrong is easier and more pleasant.

.

Then the whole idea of Faith would be destroyed. This life is a test of Faith and the ability to do Right, even when Wrong is easier and more pleasant.

nothing could be further from the truth, this life is about finding the truth, faith may be a means at various times during the search but in the end the discoveries are what matter. 10,000 pg books of forgeries has nothing to do with access and admission to the Everlasting.

You have an opinion what this life is all about, and that makes it your truth. Your truth is no better than anyone else's opinion about what this life is all about.

Many of you seem to believe that you have all the answers when none of you even know what all the questions are.

You cannot even prove that this universe existed before you woke up this morning. Perhaps you are just a tiny part of some cosmic game and it was just turned on.

Logically, there is a final state of fact which exists for all things. And once it is discovered it will be known it was always that way, even when it was believed to be otherwise. And it will always remain that way. Therefore, (objective) truth is eternal and unchanging. And this everyone understands to be God.

 

[zaangalewa]

s

... your god has yet to be proven ...

No. First of all: Everything is true, except it is wrong! With other words: Everything is true as long as it is not disproven. That's a paradigm of science. In our modern states for example everything is allowed - except it exists a concrete law which forbids something. That's the way we live.

Second: God is creator and not creation - except in Jesus, when god made himself to a part of the own creation too. But this phenomenon is to complex for your form to think in the moment - if I could call this "to think" at all, when you repeat standardized prejudices. Whatever. Natural science studies much more simple structures of the creation. Physics asks for example not even what are electrons - nor whether electrons exist at all. (No one ever saw any electron). It asks only what electrons are doing. It uses mathematical structures for such questions about the nature of the creation and the characteristics of such particles and makes predictions and tests this predictions in the reality with experiments.

What Stephen Hawkings says about his belief in god is in such a context not more important then this what a baker of pretzels says about god - in both cases is their belief in god and/or atheism completely independent from studying physics or baking pretzels.

If this is your crude ...

"crude" ... grob, roh, geschmacklos, vulgär, plump, primitiv, derb, ungehobelt, unausgegoren, unreif, rau, unverarbeitet, schwerfällig, ungeschliffen, unbeholfen ...

I guess I understand what you try to say here. You try to say "Never , never, never under no circumstances should a member of the English culture start to think. Who thinks on his own is lost."

You are not able to discuss about your own theme on a very simple reason: You don't have any idea about principles of science nor about philosophy and epistemology. You also do not understand what for example means a paradigm of science like "There is only one truth". It means from every point of view - completely independent which kind of science (research) someone is doing - never is a result of any science able to be in contradiction with another result of any other science. What you are doing is a kind of anti-science in the name of science. Question: Are you a scientologist?

 

[zaangalewa]

God should be powerful enough that it wouldn't need a book to be accepted.

Then the whole idea of Faith would be destroyed. This life is a test of Faith and the ability to do Right, even when Wrong is easier and more pleasant.

.

Then the whole idea of Faith would be destroyed. This life is a test of Faith and the ability to do Right, even when Wrong is easier and more pleasant.

nothing could be further from the truth, this life is about finding the truth, faith may be a means at various times during the search but in the end the discoveries are what matter. 10,000 pg books of forgeries has nothing to do with access and admission to the Everlasting.

You have an opinion what this life is all about, and that makes it your truth. Your truth is no better than anyone else's opinion about what this life is all about.

Many of you seem to believe that you have all the answers when none of you even know what all the questions are.

You cannot even prove that this universe existed before you woke up this morning. Perhaps you are just a tiny part of some cosmic game and it was just turned on.

Logically, there is a final state of fact which exists for all things.

If the sentence "god made everything out of nothing" is true then existed nothing before god made the worlds.

And once it is discovered it will be known it was always that way,

To speak "always" makes only sense as long as time exists. But time is creation.

even when it was believed to be otherwise. And it will always remain that way. Therefore, (objective) truth is eternal and unchanging. And this everyone understands to be God.

You confuse creation and creator. There's nothing "higher" than god - also time is not higher. God is [able to be] timeless. Time is his creation. Every existence is his creation. So when we take all existence away - what stays? Nothing! And let me beg your pardon, but: I am not a theologian. Somehow I "hate" theology (and moral). Most people have "moral" only as rules for others. I'm only a simple Christian - a Catholic like all other Catholics and never I would like to be anything else then any other simple Catholic. But let me say theologically: No one has to understand god, who likes to love him. We see what he made and he made everything beautiful. God is beauty on his own. And love is the bridge which is able to make the nothing, which separates us from god and others, to a nothing, which connects us with god and others.

 

[ding]

God should be powerful enough that it wouldn't need a book to be accepted.

Then the whole idea of Faith would be destroyed. This life is a test of Faith and the ability to do Right, even when Wrong is easier and more pleasant.

.

Then the whole idea of Faith would be destroyed. This life is a test of Faith and the ability to do Right, even when Wrong is easier and more pleasant.

nothing could be further from the truth, this life is about finding the truth, faith may be a means at various times during the search but in the end the discoveries are what matter. 10,000 pg books of forgeries has nothing to do with access and admission to the Everlasting.

You have an opinion what this life is all about, and that makes it your truth. Your truth is no better than anyone else's opinion about what this life is all about.

Many of you seem to believe that you have all the answers when none of you even know what all the questions are.

You cannot even prove that this universe existed before you woke up this morning. Perhaps you are just a tiny part of some cosmic game and it was just turned on.

Logically, there is a final state of fact which exists for all things.

If the sentence "god made everything out of nothing" is true then existed nothing before god made the worlds.

And once it is discovered it will be known it was always that way,

To speak "always" makes only sense when time exists. But time is creation.

even when it was believed to be otherwise. And it will always remain that way. Therefore, (objective) truth is eternal and unchanging. And this everyone understands to be God.

You confuse creation and creator. There's nothing "higher" than god - also time is not higher. God is [able to be] timeless.
Time is creation. Every existence is his creation. So when we take all existence away - what stays? Nothing! And please: I am not a theologian. Somehow I "hate" theology (and moral). I'm only a Christian - a simple Catholic as all other Catholics. But let me say theologically: No one has to understand god, who likes to love him. We se hat he made and he made it beautiful. God is beautiful. Love is the bridge which is able to make the nothing, which separates us from god, to a nothing, which connects us with god.

You are conflating two different arguments that are unrelated.

 

[ding]

You confuse creation and creator.

I don't see how I am. The painter is not the painting.

 

[zaangalewa]

You confuse creation and creator.

I don't see how I am.

I do.

The painter is not the painting.

Jesus?

 

[ding]

You confuse creation and creator.

I don't see how I am. The painter is not the painting.

Jesus?

He's not the painting either. He is God the Son; the Word made flesh.

 

[zaangalewa]

Then the whole idea of Faith would be destroyed. This life is a test of Faith and the ability to do Right, even when Wrong is easier and more pleasant.

.

Then the whole idea of Faith would be destroyed. This life is a test of Faith and the ability to do Right, even when Wrong is easier and more pleasant.

nothing could be further from the truth, this life is about finding the truth, faith may be a means at various times during the search but in the end the discoveries are what matter. 10,000 pg books of forgeries has nothing to do with access and admission to the Everlasting.

You have an opinion what this life is all about, and that makes it your truth. Your truth is no better than anyone else's opinion about what this life is all about.

Many of you seem to believe that you have all the answers when none of you even know what all the questions are.

You cannot even prove that this universe existed before you woke up this morning. Perhaps you are just a tiny part of some cosmic game and it was just turned on.

Logically, there is a final state of fact which exists for all things.

If the sentence "god made everything out of nothing" is true then existed nothing before god made the worlds.

And once it is discovered it will be known it was always that way,

To speak "always" makes only sense when time exists. But time is creation.

even when it was believed to be otherwise. And it will always remain that way. Therefore, (objective) truth is eternal and unchanging. And this everyone understands to be God.

You confuse creation and creator. There's nothing "higher" than god - also time is not higher. God is [able to be] timeless.
Time is creation. Every existence is his creation. So when we take all existence away - what stays? Nothing! And please: I am not a theologian. Somehow I "hate" theology (and moral). I'm only a Christian - a simple Catholic as all other Catholics. But let me say theologically: No one has to understand god, who likes to love him. We se hat he made and he made it beautiful. God is beautiful. Love is the bridge which is able to make the nothing, which separates us from god, to a nothing, which connects us with god.

You are conflating two different arguments that are unrelated.

no comment

 

[ding]

You confuse creation and creator. There's nothing "higher" than god - also time is not higher. God is [able to be] timeless. Time is his creation. Every existence is his creation. So when we take all existence away - what stays? Nothing! And let me beg your pardon, but: I am not a theologian. Somehow I "hate" theology (and moral). Most people have "moral" only as rules for others. I'm only a simple Christian - a Catholic like all other Catholics and never I would like to be anything else then any other simple Catholic. But let me say theologically: No one has to understand god, who likes to love him. We see what he made and he made everything beautiful. God is beauty on his own. And love is the bridge which is able to make the nothing, which separates us from god and others, to a nothing, which connects us with god and others.

The final state of fact is objective truth. Objective truth is reality. Reality is existence. Ergo, God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit are existence. Space and time are his creation.