How much lithium is needed to replace all internal combustion engines in the world?

[Crick]

I know. I can't help you figure this out.

Lithium batteries can be charged from non-emitting sources.

 

[ding]

Lithium batteries can be charged from non-emitting sources.

Yes. And you only need 17 trillion kg and 8 cubic miles of water to mine enough lithium to build enough batteries to replace the 65 million barrels of gasoline and diesel we burn everyday.

 

[Crick]

Yes. And you only need 17 trillion kg and 8 cubic miles of water to mine enough lithium to build enough batteries to replace the 65 million barrels of gasoline and diesel we burn everyday.

And even without recycling, that lithium will last for roughly 7 years of use. How much gasoline would we use in 7 years? 166,188,750,000 barrels. And producing gasoline also requires water: 3-6 gallons of water for every gallon of gas. Let's call it 4.5. So to cover the 7 years those lithium batteries would give us would require (don't forget 42 gallons per barrel) 31 trillion, 409 billion, 673 million, 750 thousand gallons or 34.26 cubic miles, of water. It's just the math!

 

[ding]

And even without recycling, that lithium will last for roughly 7 years of use. How much gasoline would we use in 7 years? 166,188,750,000 barrels. And producing gasoline also requires water: 3-6 gallons of water for every gallon of gas. Let's call it 4.5. So to cover the 7 years those lithium batteries would give us would require (don't forget 42 gallons per barrel) 31 trillion, 409 billion, 673 million, 750 thousand gallons or 34.26 cubic miles, of water. It's just the math!

Yes, it is just math and it's math that says mining 17 trillion kg of lithium at 100,000 metric tons per year isn't practical.

 

[Crick]

Yes, it is just math and it's math that says mining 17 trillion kg of lithium at 100,000 metric tons per year isn't practical.

I tuned out of this conversation for the most part, but a Tesla has about 10 kg of lithium and there are 1.4 billion cars in the world. That gives 10,400,000,000 kg, not the 17 trilllion value you provided - off by a factor of 1634. Mining that much at the current rate would take 104 years. Increase the rate of production and start recycling batteries and the problem could be solved in a decade or so.

It's only math till you get it wrong.

 

[ding]

I tuned out of this conversation for the most part, but a Tesla has about 10 kg of lithium and there are 1.4 billion cars in the world. That gives 10,400,000,000 kg, not the 17 trilllion value you provided - off by a factor of 1634. Mining that much at the current rate would take 104 years. Increase the rate of production and start recycling batteries and the problem could be solved in a decade or so.

It's only math till you get it wrong.

Read the OP, dummy. Yoar doing it wrong.

 

[Crick]

Read the OP, dummy. Yoar doing it wrong.

Yoa mean I'm not doing it yoar way. The problem with yoar way is that yoa confuse energy production with energy storage. I like the way I do it. It's an engineer's way to do it. Simple and correct. But maybe yoa like yoar way better because of the nonsensical results it gives yoa.

 

[ding]

Yoa mean I'm not doing it yoar way. The problem with yoar way is that yoa confuse energy production with energy storage. I like the way I do it. It's an engineer's way to do it. Simple and correct. But maybe yoa like yoar way better because of the nonsensical results it gives yoa.

The OP explains why it's the only way to calculate the lithium requirement to build enough battery capacity to replace the energy being used by internal combustion engines.

You can't simply calculate how many electric vehicles (EV) batteries are needed for the worldwide fleet to replace internal combustion engines. First of all there is no exact number of internal combustion engines in the world. Secondly there is variability in the battery size of EV batteries. So the best way to calculate how much lithium is needed to replace all of internal combustion engines in the world is to look at the daily energy consumed by internal combustion engines. This is the amount of EV battery capacity that is needed to operate EV's on a daily basis.

So we have to start with how much oil is produced daily. That number is 88 million barrels of oil per day. Then we need to calculate how much of that oil is actually refined into gasoline and diesel. Approximately 45 percent of a typical barrel of crude oil is refined into gasoline. An additional 29 percent is refined to diesel fuel. So I will start with the assumption that 74% of the 88 million barrels of oil per day is being consumed by ICE engines or 65,120,000 barrels of oil per day (88,000,000 bopd x 0.74 = 65,120,000 bopd). This is the amount of EV battery capacity that is needed to operate EV's on a daily basis.

Next we need to calculate the energy equivalent in kWh of 65,120,000 barrels of oil per day. The energy contained in a barrel of oil is approximately 5.8 million British thermal units (MBtus) or 1,700 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of energy. So there are an equivalent 110,700,000,000 kWh (110,700,000 mWh or 110,700 gWh or 110.7 tWh) in 65,120,000 barrels of oil (65,120,000 bbl of oil x 1700 kWh/bbl of oil = 110,700,000,000 kWh).

Next we need to determine the amount of lithium that is required to produce enough batteries to hold a charge of 110,700,000,000 kWh. The lithium content found in a lithium-ion battery for an electric vehicle is approximately 0.85 kg of lithium carbonate per kWh. This amounts to approximately 0.16kg of Lithium metal/kWh. So the amount of lithium required to produce enough batteries to hold a charge of 110,700,000,000 kWh is 17,713,000,000 kg of lithium metal.

So the answer to the question of how much lithium is needed to replace all internal combustion engines in the world is 17,713,000,000 kg of lithium metal. Which is equal to 17,712,640 metric tons.

 

[WorldWatcher]

So the answer to the question of how much lithium is needed to replace all internal combustion engines in the world is 17,713,000,000 kg of lithium metal. Which is equal to 17,712,640 metric tons.

That may be your question and answer but is it meaningless as EVs are not going to replace **all** ICE propulsions systems in cars, trucks, busses and railroad engines. Not going to happen any time soon (not in the next IMHO 50-100 years).

So keep throwing that big scary number around like it means something. But based on different engine applications, different use cases, alternative resource production, recycling, and that batteries last much longer than a barrel of oil - your calculation (while it may be correct) does not reflect future demand or market forces.

WW

 

[ding]

That may be your question and answer but is it meaningless as EVs are not going to replace **all** ICE propulsions systems in cars, trucks, busses and railroad engines.

No shit. EV's serve a niche. They aren't a blanket solution. Try telling that to some people though.

 

[Mac-7]

That may be your question and answer but is it meaningless as EVs are not going to replace **all** ICE propulsions systems in cars, trucks, busses and railroad engines. Not going to happen any time soon (not in the next IMHO 50-100 years).

So keep throwing that big scary number around like it means something. But based on different engine applications, different use cases, alternative resource production, recycling, and that batteries last much longer than a barrel of oil - your calculation (while it may be correct) does not reflect future demand or market forces.

WW

EVs should not be a public policy decision

Through government environmentalists are pushing EVs onto consumers who do not want them

 

[Crick]

EVs should not be a public policy decision

Through government environmentalists are pushing EVs onto consumers who do not want them

Why shouldn't EVs be a public policy decision? Unleaded gas was. DEF was. Seat belts and air bags and anti-lock brakes and backup cameras all were.

 

[ding]

Why shouldn't EVs be a public policy decision? Unleaded gas was. DEF was. Seat belts and air bags and anti-lock brakes and backup cameras all were.

It's not being done for safety reasons like seat belts and air bags. As near as I can tell anti-lock brakes and backup cameras aren't mandated. Unleaded gas was a public safety issue.

 

[Mac-7]

Why shouldn't EVs be a public policy decision? Unleaded gas was. DEF was. Seat belts and air bags and anti-lock brakes and backup cameras all were.

Just because you can does not mean you should

Government is a bull in a china shop pushing EVs with no understanding of the consequences

As the video that I suspect you didnt watch points out, EVs are not the best choice for most consumers at this time

 

[ding]

Are we leaning yet?

 

[there4eyeM]

The problem is not alternative energy transportation, it is addiction to outmoded ideas about the convenience of getting around.

 

[ding]

The problem is not alternative energy transportation, it is addiction to outmoded ideas about the convenience of getting around.

How would one get around that?

 

[Yarddog]

Why shouldn't EVs be a public policy decision? Unleaded gas was. DEF was. Seat belts and air bags and anti-lock brakes and backup cameras all were.

As Ev,s are currently, we are simply outsourcing pollution to third world countries. And why should it be public policy to over load the electrical grid?
Eventually what would happen would be the cost of electric energy going through the roof.

IMO, hybrid vehicles make more sense until battery technology is VASTLY improved

 

[ReinyDays]

Are we leaning yet?

I have a question ... how much steel to replace all piston engine rigs? ... and how much energy to produce that steel? ... did you amortize that over the life of the rig, or just five years? ...

Have you also deducted the costs of health care from piston engine exhaust? ... we have smog control here in the United States, but you include the whole world so we have to consider all the problems caused by oil extraction, unsound refining methods and a complete lack of smog control of any kind anywhere ...

Why is there poverty in the Nigar River Delta region? ...

 

[there4eyeM]

How would one get around that?

The application of intelligence, perhaps even AI.