How much is a fair share?

[manifold]

Even if the feds lowered the tax rates, the states and locals would raise theirs to make up for the shortfall.

So at the end of the day, we still end up paying the same amount only to different people.

Personally, I'd like to see the the current tax structure flipped around. I'd much prefer it if most of my taxes went to my state and local community since I trust them more to know where and how to spend it.

 

[Ame®icano]

Right now, the US government is spending around $25,000 per household, while median income per household is around $50,000. Is that much spending justifiable? I think not, so government has to cut spending first, write the budget and then decide what everyone's fair share is.

Obama keep talking about rich not paying their "fair share", while he doesn't say that the fair share is. Obama supporters are beating the same drum, as you can see in this thread, since they don't dare to answer. We cannot establish what a fair share is for rich unless we address what rich really is and what fair share is for everyone.

I already wrote above that everyone pays into Social Security and Medicare, and you can see those taxes on your payroll statement. Those two counts for almost half of government spending, and the third big expenditure is a defense.

Now, we all know that national defense is one of enumerated powers of congress, but its getting financed by income taxes (that 47% doesn't pay). Social Security and Medicare are not listed as enumerated powers and gets it own separate taxes that everyone pays. Why's that?

I think it would be fair that everyone pays for defense, just as everyone pays for SS and Medicare. That way, defense as one of three biggest expenditures will get its own funding, politicians will stop playing games with their funding and everyone will support our troops..., literary, not just in words.

If we have everyone pays defense tax of, let's say 5% (no cap), income tax can be lowered 5% for everyone. Would that be fair? Bottom line, it's in everyone interest, right?

 

[Care4all]

we are already breaking the constitution with what we spend of defense....

it specifically states that a standing army CAN NOT BE FUNDED longer than 2 years at a time....

 

[Care4all]

nearly every penny of our income taxes is spent on defense....

in total we are spending around 900 billion a year on homeland security and defense.

we only collect a little over a trillion in income taxes, or around that, the last time i checked.

 

[Care4all]

excessive defense spending IS what has brought nearly every past empire, down to its knees.....and our founders knew this, thus the limit on the standing army.

 

[Ame®icano]

excessive defense spending IS what has brought nearly every past empire, down to its knees.....and our founders knew this, thus the limit on the standing army.

I agree, but...

We are already breaking the Constitution paying into Social Security and Medicare and those two taxes are for standing army of retirees and old people that we're paying for, plus money from those programs is gone...

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

excessive defense spending IS what has brought nearly every past empire, down to its knees.....and our founders knew this, thus the limit on the standing army.

Thus the limit on the domestic army and DEBT SPENDING in the constitution

 

[earlycuyler]

9% 9% 9%.

 

[Big Fitz]

nearly every penny of our income taxes is spent on defense....

in total we are spending around 900 billion a year on homeland security and defense.

we only collect a little over a trillion in income taxes, or around that, the last time i checked.

Not true. Can you find us a graph showing where the US budget is spent? Last one I saw showed only 26% went to defense while over 60% went to social spending.

I guess we also can't afford Medicare part D and Obamacare, can we?

 

[kwc57]

Even if the feds lowered the tax rates, the states and locals would raise theirs to make up for the shortfall.

So at the end of the day, we still end up paying the same amount only to different people.

So? Wouldn't it be better that your tax dollars be spent locally than being spent across the country? That's exactly how it should work. If I live in a city or state with oppresive taxation, I can move to somewhere else that is more to my liking. Excessive taxation nationally leaves me few options. I think you are beginning to understand the constitution and states rights.

 

[Mr Natural]

Even if the feds lowered the tax rates, the states and locals would raise theirs to make up for the shortfall.

So at the end of the day, we still end up paying the same amount only to different people.

So? Wouldn't it be better that your tax dollars be spent locally than being spent across the country? That's exactly how it should work. If I live in a city or state with oppresive taxation, I can move to somewhere else that is more to my liking. Excessive taxation nationally leaves me few options. I think you are beginning to understand the constitution and states rights.

So it's not the amount you object to but the way it's spent?

 

[manifold]

Even if the feds lowered the tax rates, the states and locals would raise theirs to make up for the shortfall.

So at the end of the day, we still end up paying the same amount only to different people.

So? Wouldn't it be better that your tax dollars be spent locally than being spent across the country? That's exactly how it should work. If I live in a city or state with oppresive taxation, I can move to somewhere else that is more to my liking. Excessive taxation nationally leaves me few options. I think you are beginning to understand the constitution and states rights.

Yup.

Additionally, I'm not crazy about my tax dollars being diverted to other states I don't live in and never visit.

 

[DiamondDave]

Even if the feds lowered the tax rates, the states and locals would raise theirs to make up for the shortfall.

So at the end of the day, we still end up paying the same amount only to different people.

So? Wouldn't it be better that your tax dollars be spent locally than being spent across the country? That's exactly how it should work. If I live in a city or state with oppresive taxation, I can move to somewhere else that is more to my liking. Excessive taxation nationally leaves me few options. I think you are beginning to understand the constitution and states rights.

So it's not the amount you object to but the way it's spent?

What about complaining not only about the way it is spent.. but where it is spent.. the amount that is spent.. AND that a huge amount have zero stake in the game and are riding for nothing...??

I don't complain about a sales tax, because it is equally spread across every dollar spent.. it is the dollar spent getting taxed, whether it came from a bum or a CEO... not some subjective bullshit pandering...

But even if I don't complain about how the sales tax is implemented.. I can certainly complain about the rate and also if the proceeds are going to going to bullshit expenditures...

Our problems in taxation and spending are wide-spread... and a massive overhaul of the entire system is needed.. keeping equal treatment, by law under governance, in mind

 

[kwc57]

Even if the feds lowered the tax rates, the states and locals would raise theirs to make up for the shortfall.

So at the end of the day, we still end up paying the same amount only to different people.

So? Wouldn't it be better that your tax dollars be spent locally than being spent across the country? That's exactly how it should work. If I live in a city or state with oppresive taxation, I can move to somewhere else that is more to my liking. Excessive taxation nationally leaves me few options. I think you are beginning to understand the constitution and states rights.

So it's not the amount you object to but the way it's spent?

If you really listen to conservatives, the biggest concern is spending over amount. Amount is a concern also, but amount could eventually go down if spending were controlled. The federal government has gone far and wide outside their constitutional mandate and stuck their noses in what should only be state's concerns. They spend money where they have no right to spend money and they spend more than they take in. The answer isn't to tax more to cover the spending. The answer is quit the spending and therefore they don't need to collect as much in tax. The cities and states need to provide the services needed or desired by the people who live in that locality.

Here in Oklahoma City, we have what we call MAPS. It started years ago as a temporary one cent sales tax. The city put together a proposal of a number of municipal projects like building and renovating schools, parks and such that construction would only begin on once the funds had been collected. It was put before the citizens thru a vote and passed. We are now on our third phase of MAPS in something like 20 years with each phase being voted on. OKC mayors have been Republicans and they push these capital improvements because it makes the city a better place to live and attracts businesses. OKC tends to trend red. Conservatives aren't against taxes when they get a voice in deciding how those taxes will be spent and can see how it benefits them and their community. The federal government can't do that in an effecient manner for all the cities and states out there.

http://www.okc.gov/maps/index.html

 

[Care4all]

nearly every penny of our income taxes is spent on defense....

in total we are spending around 900 billion a year on homeland security and defense.

we only collect a little over a trillion in income taxes, or around that, the last time i checked.

Not true. Can you find us a graph showing where the US budget is spent? Last one I saw showed only 26% went to defense while over 60% went to social spending.

I guess we also can't afford Medicare part D and Obamacare, can we?

that's cuz you are including SS payout and revenues in the budget.

SS is an entity in and of itself.

Income taxes are collected to spend on discretionary spending and not SS etc....and defense is included in that....we collect a little over a trillion in income taxes...of this, 900 billion is what we spend on Total Defense including homeland security.

 

[Ame®icano]

nearly every penny of our income taxes is spent on defense....

in total we are spending around 900 billion a year on homeland security and defense.

we only collect a little over a trillion in income taxes, or around that, the last time i checked.

Not true. Can you find us a graph showing where the US budget is spent? Last one I saw showed only 26% went to defense while over 60% went to social spending.

I guess we also can't afford Medicare part D and Obamacare, can we?

that's cuz you are including SS payout and revenues in the budget.

SS is an entity in and of itself.

Income taxes are collected to spend on discretionary spending and not SS etc....and defense is included in that....we collect a little over a trillion in income taxes...of this, 900 billion is what we spend on Total Defense including homeland security.

On the second thought, we do have a standing army since WWII, so why we shouldn't pay for it regularly?

 

[Big Fitz]

nearly every penny of our income taxes is spent on defense....

in total we are spending around 900 billion a year on homeland security and defense.

we only collect a little over a trillion in income taxes, or around that, the last time i checked.

Not true. Can you find us a graph showing where the US budget is spent? Last one I saw showed only 26% went to defense while over 60% went to social spending.

I guess we also can't afford Medicare part D and Obamacare, can we?

that's cuz you are including SS payout and revenues in the budget.

SS is an entity in and of itself.

Income taxes are collected to spend on discretionary spending and not SS etc....and defense is included in that....we collect a little over a trillion in income taxes...of this, 900 billion is what we spend on Total Defense including homeland security.

Social Security is social spending and accounts for only 20% or so. That's still 40% outlayed to other forms of social spending from Medicare to SNAP to welfare.

 

[Care4all]

Not true. Can you find us a graph showing where the US budget is spent? Last one I saw showed only 26% went to defense while over 60% went to social spending.

I guess we also can't afford Medicare part D and Obamacare, can we?

that's cuz you are including SS payout and revenues in the budget.

SS is an entity in and of itself.

Income taxes are collected to spend on discretionary spending and not SS etc....and defense is included in that....we collect a little over a trillion in income taxes...of this, 900 billion is what we spend on Total Defense including homeland security.

On the second thought, we do have a standing army since WWII, so why we shouldn't pay for it regularly?

i dunno, i guess cuz the CONSTITUTION says that we should NOT! our founders knew that Defense spending could get way out of hand, and I believe this is why they stated such in the constitution....

for some reason, they were aware of the military industrial complex and the ease of going to war if we did just fund defense like drunken sailors and there is no tomorrow....?

 

[bripat9643]

i dunno, i guess cuz the CONSTITUTION says that we should NOT! our founders knew that Defense spending could get way out of hand, and I believe this is why they stated such in the constitution....

for some reason, they were aware of the military industrial complex and the ease of going to war if we did just fund defense like drunken sailors and there is no tomorrow....?

Spending on the military during the worst days of the monarchy didn't come to half of what the US spent on defense during the Cold War and not a quarter of what we spent during WW II. Democracy is the cause of massive spending on the military, not the "military industrial complex." The historical record shows that democracy has led to an explosion of military spending wherever it is in force.

 

[Care4all]

i dunno, i guess cuz the CONSTITUTION says that we should NOT! our founders knew that Defense spending could get way out of hand, and I believe this is why they stated such in the constitution....

for some reason, they were aware of the military industrial complex and the ease of going to war if we did just fund defense like drunken sailors and there is no tomorrow....?

Spending on the military during the worst days of the monarchy didn't come to half of what the US spent on defense during the Cold War and not a quarter of what we spend during WW II. Democracy is the cause of massive spending on the military, not the "military industrial complex." The historical record shows that democracy has lead to an explosion of military spending wherever it is in force.

massive military spending breaks a nation or empire....just look at the past....the Romans could be a start....