How Israel Used Its Own Civilians as Human Shields While Assaulting Gaza

Yes, Palestinian web-sites are well known for their objectivity.
Do you think the website determines the truth of falsehood of a claim? Is that what you think?

BTW, the ICRC, AI and UN, are not Palestinian websites.

And Palestinian websites, are far more credible, than Israeli ones.


As an aside, does it bother you that Jordan told a bunch of Syrian Palestinians to **** off and die in Syria?
I bet you blame THAT on Israel.
I really don't give a shit! And no, I haven't.
 
You choose one side advocating terrorism out loud and you blame it all on Israel, I could understand your position like most "anti-Zionists" pro-pals if you wouldn't support Hamas-but you do...another stupid casualty.
Why did Israel so oppose the unity government (which is founded on Israel's permanence and has no seats for Hamas) that they had to bulldoze thousands of Palestinian residences in West Bank, confiscate the payroll of 50,000 citizens of Gazza, deny fishing rights in the Mediterranean Sea, and clamp down on the embargo to unliveable levels?

Hamas acceded to that unity government. That should have been rewarded. It would have been a trivial step from there to further marginalize Hamas. Instead, Israel responded with a clear act of war along with collective punishment of Palestinians in both West Bank and Gaza.
 
Yes, Palestinian web-sites are well known for their objectivity.
Do you think the website determines the truth of falsehood of a claim? Is that what you think?

BTW, the ICRC, AI and UN, are not Palestinian websites.

And Palestinian websites, are far more credible, than Israeli ones.


As an aside, does it bother you that Jordan told a bunch of Syrian Palestinians to **** off and die in Syria?
I bet you blame THAT on Israel.
I really don't give a shit!

So you are a Jew hating piece of shit.
I guess it's a good thing you are insignificant outside of your inane postings.
 
You choose one side advocating terrorism out loud and you blame it all on Israel, I could understand your position like most "anti-Zionists" pro-pals if you wouldn't support Hamas-but you do...another stupid casualty.
Why did Israel so oppose the unity government (which is founded on Israel's permanence and has no seats for Hamas) that they had to bulldoze thousands of Palestinian residences in West Bank, confiscate the payroll of 50,000 citizens of Gazza, deny fishing rights in the Mediterranean Sea, and clamp down on the embargo to unliveable levels?

Hamas acceded to that unity government. That should have been rewarded. It would have been a trivial step from there to further marginalize Hamas. Instead, Israel responded with a clear act of war along with collective punishment of Palestinians in both West Bank and Gaza.

I don't know how old you are but I suggest reading some pre-2000 AD stories about constant Jordanian suicide/homicide bombings in Israel.
Oh yeah, a peaceful bunch they are.
 
I don't know how old you are but I suggest reading some pre-2000 AD stories about constant Jordanian suicide/homicide bombings in Israel.
Oh yeah, a peaceful bunch they are.
What a completely stupid response!

Like what happened 2000 years ago, is relevant today?

Is it possible for you to be an even bigger idiot, than you are right now?
 
I don't know how old you are but I suggest reading some pre-2000 AD stories about constant Jordanian suicide/homicide bombings in Israel.
Oh yeah, a peaceful bunch they are.
What a completely stupid response!

Like what happened 2000 years ago, is relevant today?

Is it possible for you to be an even bigger idiot, than you are right now?

I meant what was going on PRIOR to the year 2000 when Israel's border's were open,
Your interpretation is pre-2000 BC.
 
Just how stupid is the claim Hamas uses human shields?

It's pretty ******* stupid, when you consider the fact that Israel drops 1000 pound bombs, that take out entire neighborhoods.
 
Billo_Really, et al,

Let me try to answer these issues.

The Israeli position is the occupation and subjugation of the Palestinian people, otherwise known as colonialism.
(COMMENT)

There is not not and never has been, a colonial intent on the part of Israel, with an eye towards the West Bank or the Gaza Strip. This is merely political rhetoric by the Arab Palestinians to reduce a very complex set of ground conditions situations to a child-like and elementary set of competing claims (right thinking vs wrong thinking).

The Area "C" Settlements are governed by mutual agreement in the Oslo Accords and not a matter of colonialism. And with the exception of Area "C" Settlements, nowhere else does Israel extend exclusive control in the West Bank or Gaza Strip.

Relative to the allegation of "subjugation," Israel did not enter sovereign Jordanian territory or Egyptian Occupied Gaza with the intent to defeat and gain control of Palestinian Territory. It entered those regions with the intent to defeat Egyptian and Jordanian force that represented a threat to Israeli sovereignty.

The way you talk, Poland had no right to resist Hitler.
(COMMENT)

I don't recall mentioning Poland and I don't recall making a comparative analysis between the struggles under the Rules of War in 1939 and the Rules of War as amended today. Your inference is that somehow the plight of the Palestinian even approaches the Plight of the Jews in Poland is simply remarkable. I wasn't aware that the Arab Palestinian in the West Bank and Gaza Strip are faced with extinction. I wasn't aware that Arab Palestinians were under reduced rations or even a ration program; with limited the time periods in which to purchase food and other supplies. Nor was I aware that Arab Palestinians were under restricted access to certain stores in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. I certainly am not aware that Arab Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were required to relinquish property such as radios, cameras, bicycles, electrical appliances, and other valuables, to local Israeli officials. I did not know that the Arab Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were subject to exploitation as forced laborers for the Israelis. So I guess that my knowledge is somewhat limited in that ground truth. Otherwise your allegation is somewhat sensationalizing in a false comparison.

Everyone has the right to self-determination and if it takes killing Israeli's to do that, so be it.
(COMMENT)

I was under the impression that the Arab Palestinian exercised self-determination when they rejected the Partition Plan and declined to participate in the implementation process. I thought the Arab Palestinians exercised their right to self-determination when they participated in the Jordanian Parliament and voted for annexation and incorporation into sovereign Jordan. I thought the Arab Palestinians exercised their right to self-determination when they attempted to assassinate the King of Jordan (not just once, but twice) in an attempt to takeover the Kingdom. I thought the Arab Palestinian exercised their right to self-determination when they declared independence. I thought the Arab Palestinian had been exercising their right to self-determination through bombings, hijacking, piracy, murder, suicide bombings, kidnappings, mass murders, and indiscriminate and rocket fire over the last half century.

When did they stop exercising their right to self-determination?

Get the **** off land that isn't yours and stop denying the Palestinian's right to freedom.
(COMMENT)

The Arab Palestinians have the right to freedom, they just don't have the right to interfere with the peace society of the Israelis. They simply don't have the right to conduct hostilities against a sovereign nation.

Because if you don't, Israel will suffer the same fate as Nazi Germany.
(COMMENT)

Again, with the unfounded NAZI analogy.

In reality the Arab Palestinians are state supporters of terrorism; in all forms of propaganda, designed or likely to provoke or encourage and threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression. The openly support terrorist groups and bands by organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities intended to be committed against other States or their citizens. They use Arab Palestinians territories for terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against other States or their citizens.

Arab Palestinian terrorist activities have become legendary over the last half century. They are a menace to themselves and to regional security.

If you're the aggressor, then it's not self defense, it's self delusional, in your case.
(COMMENT)

The Israeli is not the aggressor; it is the Arab Palestinian that has been directly involved in every attempt to undermine the sovereign integrity of Israel for the last half century.

Wrong! It is not arguable among legal experts. No expert on IHL takes your position. No country on the planet, takes your position. You are alone on this point. No one else, agrees with you.
(COMMENT)

With regard to Gaza:

Occupation and Other Forms of Administration of Foreign Territory said:
Military presence as an element of the ‘effective control’ test provoked constructive discussions among the experts. A majority of participants concluded very quickly that the presence of foreign armed forces in a disputed area was a prerequisite for the establishment of an occupation.

SOURCE: International Committee of the Red Cross Panel of Experts Report, Head of the Legal Division, ICRC

BTW, the Geneva Convention is IHL by Treaty. It is considered the basic foundation. Unlike more of the Human Rights Resolutions past and often cited, the Geneva Convention is binding to the parties; as are the Rules of War.

Hamas did not initiate the conflict.
They responded to Israeli acts of aggression.
(COMMENT)

Yeah, right. HAMAS never fired a rocket or mortar. They are a totally innocent party (we didn't do nuth'in). And of course, they aren't terrorist and don't support terrorists.

I can get you a guess spot on "Comedy Central." Because this is a joke.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
Just how stupid is the claim Hamas uses human shields?

It's pretty ******* stupid, when you consider the fact that Israel drops 1000 pound bombs, that take out entire neighborhoods.

Actually, I've seen quite a few overhead images on BBC and CNN where only 1 or two buildings out of dozens appear to be damaged.
I think the damage is being exaggerated.
Presuming anyone else here checks with CNN and/or BBC every hour or so.
 
Actually, I've seen quite a few overhead images on BBC and CNN where only 1 or two buildings out of dozens appear to be damaged.
I think the damage is being exaggerated.
Presuming anyone else here checks with CNN and/or BBC every hour or so.
Really?





 
Let me try to answer these issues.
In the crowd you run with, that is a minority.

Since you're not a troll, you have my permission to proceed.

There is not not and never has been, a colonial intent on the part of Israel, with an eye towards the West Bank or the Gaza Strip.
You're full of shit!

"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."
- Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'"
- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist... There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
- Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.
According to your former leaders, colonialism is exactly what you planned to do all along.

I don't recall mentioning Poland and I don't recall making a comparative analysis between the struggles under the Rules of War in 1939 and the Rules of War as amended today. Your inference is that somehow the plight of the Palestinian even approaches the Plight of the Jews in Poland is simply remarkable. I wasn't aware that the Arab Palestinian in the West Bank and Gaza Strip are faced with extinction. I wasn't aware that Arab Palestinians were under reduced rations or even a ration program; with limited the time periods in which to purchase food and other supplies. Nor was I aware that Arab Palestinians were under restricted access to certain stores in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. I certainly am not aware that Arab Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were required to relinquish property such as radios, cameras, bicycles, electrical appliances, and other valuables, to local Israeli officials. I did not know that the Arab Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were subject to exploitation as forced laborers for the Israelis. So I guess that my knowledge is somewhat limited in that ground truth. Otherwise your allegation is somewhat sensationalizing in a false comparison.
Your premise is that it is illegal to resist a belligerent occupation by a foreign force.

The Germans belligerently occupied Poland. Warsaw Jews resisted that occupation. To argue Palestinian's do not have a legal right to resist now, is to say the Jews in Poland did not have the legal right to resist then.

You cannot claim it is a "false comparison", when occupational law is a result of what the Germans did in WWII.

I was under the impression that the Arab Palestinian exercised self-determination when they rejected the Partition Plan and declined to participate in the implementation process. I thought the Arab Palestinians exercised their right to self-determination when they participated in the Jordanian Parliament and voted for annexation and incorporation into sovereign Jordan. I thought the Arab Palestinians exercised their right to self-determination when they attempted to assassinate the King of Jordan (not just once, but twice) in an attempt to takeover the Kingdom. I thought the Arab Palestinian exercised their right to self-determination when they declared independence. I thought the Arab Palestinian had been exercising their right to self-determination through bombings, hijacking, piracy, murder, suicide bombings, kidnappings, mass murders, and indiscriminate and rocket fire over the last half century.
That's not self-determination, that's resistance.

If they have the right to self-determination:
- why can't Gazan's travel abroad without first getting travel visas from Israel?
- why can't they fish, without getting shot at?
- why can't they farm, without getting shot at?
- why can't they move freely about in the West Bank, without going through some 500 checkpoints and roadblocks?
- why can't they have free and fair elections, without getting punished by economic blockades and sieges?​
When did they stop exercising their right to self-determination?
You can't stop something you never had.

The Arab Palestinians have the right to freedom, they just don't have the right to interfere with the peace society of the Israelis. They simply don't have the right to conduct hostilities against a sovereign nation.
Israel has maintained a belligerent occupation for the last 47 years, it's not the Pals who are conducting hostilities.

Arab Palestinian terrorist activities have become legendary over the last half century. They are a menace to themselves and to regional security.
Israel making up lies to attack its neighbors, is a menace to the region.

The Israeli is not the aggressor; it is the Arab Palestinian that has been directly involved in every attempt to undermine the sovereign integrity of Israel for the last half century.
Wrong! An occupational force does not have sovereignty.

With regard to Gaza:

Occupation and Other Forms of Administration of Foreign Territory said:
Military presence as an element of the ‘effective control’ test provoked constructive discussions among the experts. A majority of participants concluded very quickly that the presence of foreign armed forces in a disputed area was a prerequisite for the establishment of an occupation.

SOURCE: International Committee of the Red Cross Panel of Experts Report, Head of the Legal Division, ICRC

BTW, the Geneva Convention is IHL by Treaty. It is considered the basic foundation. Unlike more of the Human Rights Resolutions past and often cited, the Geneva Convention is binding to the parties; as are the Rules of War.
That is true. The reference you cited, was when they were discussing the laws of occupation in general. When you start discussing specifics, the world community of experts are all in agreement when it comes to Israel and the OPT.

Gaza (along with the West Bank and East Jerusalem) is occupied Palestinian territory under international law, determined by the vast majority of the world, as well as the highest court in the world, the UN’s International Court of Justice. Gaza cannot commit aggression against Israel, since Israel is in constant and continual commission of illegal aggression against Palestine by occupying it (illegally and sadistically blockading it and frequently committing terrorism against its civilians, including by targeting them with chemical weapons provided by US taxpayers – see “Rain of Fire” by Human Rights Watch). As documented by Amnesty Int’l, Human Rights Watch, and many others, Israel intentionally targets and murders civilians, including children, en masse.
Even the HCJ disagrees with you.

One source of the obligations imposed on Israel toward residents of the Gaza Strip is the laws of occupation, which are incorporated in the Hague Convention (1907) and in the Fourth Geneva Convention (1949). These laws impose general responsibility on the occupying state for the safety and welfare of civilians living in the occupied territory. The laws of occupation apply if a state has "effective control" over the territory in question. The High Court has held contrary to Israel 's claim, stating that the creation and continuation of an occupation does not depend on the existence of an institution administering the lives of the local population, but only on the extent of its military control in the area. Furthermore, a certain area may be deemed occupied even if the army does not have a fixed presence throughout the whole area. Leading experts in humanitarian law maintain that effective control may also exist when the army controls key points in a particular area, reflecting its power over the entire area and preventing an alternative central government from formulating and carrying out its powers. The broad scope of Israeli control in the Gaza Strip, which exists despite the lack of a physical presence of IDF soldiers in the territory, creates a reasonable basis for the assumption that this control amounts to "effective control," such that the laws of occupation continue to apply.
And the blockade of Gaza qualifies as "effective control".

Yeah, right. HAMAS never fired a rocket or mortar. They are a totally innocent party (we didn't do nuth'in).
I never said that. That has never been my point.

And of course, they aren't terrorist and don't support terrorists.
I haven't said that either. I have said not everyone in Hamas, is a terrorist. And not everything Hamas does, is terrorism.

But bombing the King David hotel, is terrorism.

I can get you a guess spot on "Comedy Central." Because this is a joke.
The only joke here, is you trying to argue Israel is the victim.
 
Actually, I've seen quite a few overhead images on BBC and CNN where only 1 or two buildings out of dozens appear to be damaged.
I think the damage is being exaggerated.
Presuming anyone else here checks with CNN and/or BBC every hour or so.
Really?






Really; already we can see in the top picture that the buildings in the top half are not damaged.
Ignore the angle of the picture and you will see the same.
The second picture is a selective close-up and doesn't address the point.
 
15th post
Bullo>>If they have the right to self-determination:

- why can't Gazan's travel abroad without first getting travel visas from Israel?
- why can't they fish, without getting shot at?
- why can't they farm, without getting shot at?
- why can't they move freely about in the West Bank, without going through some 500 checkpoints and roadblocks?
- why can't they have free and fair elections, without getting punished by economic blockades and sieges?<<

They do not want to be Israeli. They have to go to the PA Offices and apply for a passport, travel permit, etc., if they have a birth certificate showing they were born in palestine. If a gazan wants to travel to Israel they need to apply to hamas. They need the right documents and stamps recognized by Israel.

The fishing limit is 6 nautical miles. If hamas was not firing rockets at Israel, or smuggling weapons and items that can be used in bombs so they can keep shooting at Israel, there would have been no need for the blockade. The blockade is a legal defense for Israel. Gaza has fish farms now.

Gazans do farm. There is large strip near the wetlands in the south that is for agriculture. Since it is close to the coast, there is not danger for the farmers. There are smaller farms scattered throughout gaza. Palestinians do not have to farm along the fence line. Roof gardens are producing food for the markets. Refugees in camps have also taken up roof gardening.

If hamas does not given applicants the right documents with the right stamps then they cannot leave gaza. Restrictions by Israel are in place for security reasons. If hamas was not trying to attack or bomb Israelis there would be less trouble for travel from gaza to the WB. Document issued by hamas are not always accepted in the WB preventing entry by palestinians.

As for the elections, we have been through this before. Hamas is preventing elections in gaza. The firing on Israel as well as hamas not permitting other political parties from campaigning or securing a period of calm for elections can take place has stalled the projected dates. They were supposed to take place before September according to the unity agreement between hamas and the PA. Unfortunately the unity agreement is falling apart because of hamas.
 
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They do not want to be Israeli. They have to go to the PA Offices and apply for a passport, travel permit, etc., if they have a birth certificate showing they were born in palestine. If a gazan wants to travel to Israel they need to apply to hamas. They need the right documents and stamps recognized by Israel.
What if a Gazan wants to travel to the United States?

What business is that of Israel's?

The fishing limit is 6 nautical miles. If hamas was not firing rockets at Israel, or smuggling weapons and items that can be used in bombs so they can keep shooting at Israel, there would have been no need for the blockade. The blockade is a legal defense for Israel. Gaza has fish farms now.
International law allows for a 12 mile limit. Israel restricts the Pals to a 3 mile limit. Within this 3 mile limit, Israeli gunboats routinely shoot at Palestinians WHILE THEY ARE FISHING!





WHO THE **** SHOOTS AT PEOPLE FISHING?


Gazans do farm. There is large strip near the wetlands in the south that is for agriculture. Since it is close to the coast, there is not danger for the farmers. There are smaller farms scattered throughout gaza. Palestinians do not have to farm along the fence line. Roof gardens are producing food for the markets. Refugees in camps have also taken up roof gardening.
And the get shot at while they're farming! Why?



If hamas does not given applicants the right documents with the right stamps then they cannot leave gaza. Restrictions by Israel are in place for security reasons. If hamas was not trying to attack or bomb Israelis there would be less trouble for travel from gaza to the WB. Document issued by hamas are not always accepted in the WB preventing entry by palestinians.
End the occupation and you won't get bombs from Hamas.

You're the aggressor! Stop your aggression!

As for the elections, we have been through this before. Hamas is preventing elections in gaza. The firing on Israel as well as hamas not permitting other political parties from campaigning or securing a period of calm for elections can take place has stalled the projected dates. They were supposed to take place before September according to the unity agreement between hamas and the PA. Unfortunately the unity agreement is falling apart because of hamas.
You are so ******* full of shit!

Israel deliberately lied about who was responsible for the deaths of the 3 teens, just so it could launch this latest attack with the sole purpose of ending the unity government.

The one thing that pisses me off more than anything, is you fuckers blaming others for the shit you do!
 
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Really; already we can see in the top picture that the buildings in the top half are not damaged.
Ignore the angle of the picture and you will see the same.
The second picture is a selective close-up and doesn't address the point.
The buildings in the top picture could be the next neighborhood over.

As far as the 2nd picture, how the **** would you know?
 
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